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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:39 pm 
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Brackite wrote:
The LDS Church has changed the chapter heading to Alma 11 since then. Here is the link to the old chapter heading of Alma 11:

http://classic.scriptures.LDS.org/en/alma/11

And it came to pass President Newsroom received further revelation.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:02 pm 
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Both of these ad hoc explanations come from the same apologist organization: FAIR. And there is no coherent methodology as to how FAIR determines when we need to read between the lines and when we need to read the exact words literally. No methodology, that is, except apologetic expediency.

As a side note, take a look at how Dr. Peterson, Kerry Shirts, and other friends of FAIR are so dismissive of the chapter headings put in the Book of Mormon by the LDS Church---the headings are "almost certainly wrong" and are not part of the original text. In other words, the LDS Church does not understand its own scriptures. How fortunate that we have these apologists to remove such "roadblocks to faith" as the fundamentalist notion that the LDS Church would have any idea what it is talking about when it explains the Book of Mormon narrative.


I know I have said this before, but it bears repeating... truly! As an apologist, I literally could NOT see this outstanding point Darth J presented. That is without question one of the weirdest frickin things I have ever seen of myself I swear it papa's tattoo. Apologists literally CANNOT see Darth J's point. Bring it up over at their board if you think I am kidding man. (they won't let me hardly even read it let alone post - heaven forbid an evil apostate share his views now!)

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:19 am 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
Quote:
Darth J had said
Both of these ad hoc explanations come from the same apologist organization: FAIR. And there is no coherent methodology as to how FAIR determines when we need to read between the lines and when we need to read the exact words literally. No methodology, that is, except apologetic expediency.

As a side note, take a look at how Dr. Peterson, Kerry Shirts, and other friends of FAIR are so dismissive of the chapter headings put in the Book of Mormon by the LDS Church---the headings are "almost certainly wrong" and are not part of the original text. In other words, the LDS Church does not understand its own scriptures. How fortunate that we have these apologists to remove such "roadblocks to faith" as the fundamentalist notion that the LDS Church would have any idea what it is talking about when it explains the Book of Mormon narrative.


I know I have said this before, but it bears repeating... truly! As an apologist, I literally could NOT see this outstanding point Darth J presented. That is without question one of the weirdest frickin things I have ever seen of myself I swear it papa's tattoo. Apologists literally CANNOT see Darth J's point. Bring it up over at their board if you think I am kidding man. (they won't let me hardly even read it let alone post - heaven forbid an evil apostate share his views now!)


What made you consider alternatives to the church being what it claims? For me it was becoming the gospel doctrine teacher in my ward combined with going to the temple a lot. I researched my way out and the nonsense of the temple ceremony spurred on my research.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:22 am 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
I know I have said this before, but it bears repeating... truly! As an apologist, I literally could NOT see this outstanding point Darth J presented. That is without question one of the weirdest frickin things I have ever seen of myself I swear it papa's tattoo. Apologists literally CANNOT see Darth J's point. Bring it up over at their board if you think I am kidding man. (they won't let me hardly even read it let alone post - heaven forbid an evil apostate share his views now!)


Kerry, it also bears repeating that you've always seemed to be a man interested in truth, not in being "right." That you saw the wisdom in a supposed "enemy" says a lot about your character.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:53 am 
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I couldn’t stop watching the linked documentary in the opening post. The documentary is so funny. I can’t believe I bought into this whole Mormon thing! I mean, there was a small period of time where I could stamp my faith with the “I know.”

I feel sad that now that I live in the west I can’t take advantage of going to a FAIR conference or a special night with one of the cult hero’s, e.g. DCP and really take in the different diffusion theories focuses on Lemon, Lameuel, Nephi, etc and how they absorbed into the Central American people.

I miss the days of bold apologetics. These dudes made documentaries with background music and all the good stuff. Now, they won’t even visit this board, and goddamm1t, this board is ground zero in many ways. Please excuse my rant.


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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:59 am 
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lostindc wrote:
I couldn’t stop watching the linked documentary in the opening post. The documentary is so funny. I can’t believe I bought into this whole Mormon thing! I mean, there was a small period of time where I could stamp my faith with the “I know.”

I feel sad that now that I live in the west I can’t take advantage of going to a FAIR conference or a special night with one of the cult hero’s, e.g. DCP and really take in the different diffusion theories focuses on Lemon, Lameuel, Nephi, etc and how they absorbed into the Central American people.

I miss the days of bold apologetics. These dudes made documentaries with background music and all the good stuff. Now, they won’t even visit this board, and goddamm1t, this board is ground zero in many ways. Please excuse my rant.

I know what you mean. I did a lot of eye-rolling when I watched that "documentary" (using the term loosely). They have Nephi's little band strolling into the middle of a city that's been around for 900 years, quickly winning them over, and becoming the driving force for the development of the civilization. The Nephite kings rule the city for 400 years, and yet there's nary a trace of them anywhere.

What's really going on is, "Hey! Here's a city that more or less matches the time frame of the Nephites, and it's pretty advanced. Must be the Land of Nephi." I don't mean to be snarky, but yes, that video was absurd.

Where in the west are you? I'm back in Utah, but I won't be visiting any apologists anytime soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:31 pm 
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Simon Southerton wrote:
Its madness!

This.

Simon Southerton wrote:
At some point it must get less embarrassing to face up to the fraud than to continue to perpetuate it. Are we there yet?

Yes. Past it, even. Thanks to folks like you. Like that matters, though, the crazy train will continue. I'm at a place where I'm starting to have some really negative feelings about people like Sorenson, Peterson, Gardner, et al. I only ever believed this stuff because "experts" like them stood by it. How could I, an ignorant kid, know any better? I didn't understand anything about archaeology, biology, zoology, human population dynamics, linguistics, or any of the myriad of other subjects that play into all this. These assholes should have known better. They do. Surely they have to. Can this be anything other than intentional deception on their part? They are malicious. On a certain level I find them to be even worse than the "prophets." At least with them the possibility of genuine ignorance exists. How could that be the case with these men? How can one be a PhD-level archaeologist, biologist, whatever, even regardless of whatever cracker jack institution printed the diploma, and still defend this stuff, honestly, with a straight face?


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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:34 pm 
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Physics Guy wrote:
On the other board I let Gardner leave it at that. He gave a straight, clear answer, and I like that much better than the long runarounds you often get from apologists. I don't know nearly enough about Mayans or the Book of Mormon to press more on this issue. For what it's worth, my guess is that Gardner won't be a pushover on this. He's willing to concede a fair amount of weirdness and distortion in the text, while maintaining that it really is ancient, so I'd be surprised if you could really catch him in something utterly silly. I think you'd need a pretty big bullet to shoot his theory down.


It's quite possible that no evidence, no matter how reliable, will change his mind. However, there are some really big bullets flying around out there now.

Mormon apologetics is becoming a very hard avocation to practise.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:01 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:

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Yes. Past it, even. Thanks to folks like you. Like that matters, though, the crazy train will continue. I'm at a place where I'm starting to have some really negative feelings about people like Sorenson, Peterson, Gardner, et al. I only ever believed this stuff because "experts" like them stood by it. How could I, an ignorant kid, know any better? I didn't understand anything about archaeology, biology, zoology, human population dynamics, linguistics, or any of the myriad of other subjects that play into all this. These assholes should have known better. They do. Surely they have to. Can this be anything other than intentional deception on their part? They are malicious. On a certain level I find them to be even worse than the "prophets." At least with them the possibility of genuine ignorance exists. How could that be the case with these men? How can one be a PhD-level archaeologist, biologist, whatever, even regardless of whatever cracker jack institution printed the diploma, and still defend this stuff, honestly, with a straight face?


An apologist can literally argue that any false calm is true by beginning with the conclusion they desire to end up with and working backwards. But this process doesn't make their conclusions imperically true nor correct...it only gives the apologist the false satisfaction that they are right when in reality they have fallen into the trap of a logical fallicy.

For Example: Say I believe that the Moon is made of green cheese. Because I have already conclused that the Moon is made of green cheese, no evidence that conflicts with my conclusion can move me from my belief. I can argue all day that despite men having walked on the moon, they didn't taste any of the moon, nor did they conduct any experiments that would have confirmed that just under the surface there was green cheese or I could argue that they were looking in the wrong place or that the green cheese part of the moon is in another location than the area of the moon that men walked on. Or as with Book of Mormon apologist, I can argue that we haven't tested every square inch of the moon, looked under every rock on the the moon and drilled deep inside the moon's rocky surface and until we do, no one can prove that the moon isn't made of green cheese.

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Last edited by Craig Paxton on Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:19 pm 
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oliblish wrote:
Does anyone ever explain where this large native population came from, when they arrived or how they traveled to America? It would have to have been after the flood, so the scientific explanations of the land bridge 10K+ years ago is out the window.

The world encompassing flood was simply a story. The migration to the American continents took place at the time of the last major glaciation.

Likewise, the skin curse was just a story. Skin pigmentation has nothing to do with any curses.

If it is of any comfort, we are in no danger of being overrun by either the Daleks or the Cybermen - even if they were to wear the gang sign colored loincloths of the Nephites and Lamanites.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:51 pm 
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Runtu wrote:
What's really going on is, "Hey! Here's a city that more or less matches the time frame of the Nephites, and it's pretty advanced. Must be the Land of Nephi." I don't mean to be snarky, but yes, that video was absurd.


They always talk about Kaminaljuyu being the best candidate for the City of Nephi. Its the ONLY candidate in Mesoamerica because its where Mayan civilization really kicked off. But it was kicking off centuries before the imaginary Lehite era.

It's what the Book of Mormon narrative doesn't say which is the most compelling. Nephi and his party walked for miles from where they initially landed along trade routes that had been used for millennia. They would have walked past yummy avocado and sapodilla orchards and people drinking chocolate(!!); but there wasn't enough room on the plates to talk about any of this. Then a little while later the Lamanites trudged along the same route, making sure not to be distracted by any of this, so that they could catch up to the Nephites and wage war on them for a thousand years. Utterly absurd.

There are thousands of scholars studying ancient cultures in the New World. They found 32 "top scholars" for this documentary, and not one of them is a respected scholar outside of BYU. When you pay their salaries you buy their loyalty.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:09 am 
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Simon Southerton wrote:
They always talk about Kaminaljuyu being the best candidate for the City of Nephi. Its the ONLY candidate in Mesoamerica because its where Mayan civilization really kicked off. But it was kicking off centuries before the imaginary Lehite era.

It's what the Book of Mormon narrative doesn't say which is the most compelling. Nephi and his party walked for miles from where they initially landed along trade routes that had been used for millennia. They would have walked past yummy avocado and sapodilla orchards and people drinking chocolate(!!); but there wasn't enough room on the plates to talk about any of this. Then a little while later the Lamanites trudged along the same route, making sure not to be distracted by any of this, so that they could catch up to the Nephites and wage war on them for a thousand years. Utterly absurd.

There are thousands of scholars studying ancient cultures in the New World. They found 32 "top scholars" for this documentary, and not one of them is a respected scholar outside of BYU. When you pay their salaries you buy their loyalty.


I mentioned this video on the "other" board, and I noted that the assertion that Nephi quickly became the leader of Kaminaljuyu was supported by such folks as John Sorensen, Brant Gardner, and Daniel Peterson. Brant took exception to that, so I apologized, but watching it over again, the video is edited such that Brant appears to be one of a chorus of voices arguing for that quick takeover of an established civilization. So, the problem is with the video, not with me.

Another thought I had is that the BofM has the Nephite party taking great pains to avoid contact with other people in the Arabian Peninsula, but if Sorensen is right about them assimilating and assuming control of an established civilization, the injunction to avoid contact seems to have ended in the New World. In short, why tell us in the book that they didn't want to be seen by anyone and were successful in doing so in Arabia, but then turn around and mix with established peoples without mentioning a word about it?

It was interesting that some of the "scholars" were simply church leaders of various stripes. The "can do kinda guy" quote comes from Virginia Pearce, whose main claim to prominence is that she's Gordon Hinckley's daughter and was in the Young Women's General Presidency.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:28 am 
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Simon Southerton wrote:

They always talk about Kaminaljuyu being the best candidate for the City of Nephi. Its the ONLY candidate in Mesoamerica because its where Mayan civilization really kicked off. But it was kicking off centuries before the imaginary Lehite era.

It's what the Book of Mormon narrative doesn't say which is the most compelling. Nephi and his party walked for miles from where they initially landed along trade routes that had been used for millennia. They would have walked past yummy avocado and sapodilla orchards and people drinking chocolate(!!); but there wasn't enough room on the plates to talk about any of this. Then a little while later the Lamanites trudged along the same route, making sure not to be distracted by any of this, so that they could catch up to the Nephites and wage war on them for a thousand years. Utterly absurd.

There are thousands of scholars studying ancient cultures in the New World. They found 32 "top scholars" for this documentary, and not one of them is a respected scholar outside of BYU. When you pay their salaries you buy their loyalty.


Simon,

If this city is such a great prospect for a Nephite city and we know when the Nephite's would have arrived there, can't DNA testing be done on remains from that time frame to see if there was a foreign intrusion of DNA happening? Couldn't DNA testing show that city is not a Nephite city?

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:04 am 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
Simon Southerton wrote:
They always talk about Kaminaljuyu being the best candidate for the City of Nephi. Its the ONLY candidate in Mesoamerica because its where Mayan civilization really kicked off. But it was kicking off centuries before the imaginary Lehite era.

It's what the Book of Mormon narrative doesn't say which is the most compelling. Nephi and his party walked for miles from where they initially landed along trade routes that had been used for millennia. They would have walked past yummy avocado and sapodilla orchards and people drinking chocolate(!!); but there wasn't enough room on the plates to talk about any of this. Then a little while later the Lamanites trudged along the same route, making sure not to be distracted by any of this, so that they could catch up to the Nephites and wage war on them for a thousand years. Utterly absurd.

There are thousands of scholars studying ancient cultures in the New World. They found 32 "top scholars" for this documentary, and not one of them is a respected scholar outside of BYU. When you pay their salaries you buy their loyalty.

Simon,

If this city is such a great prospect for a Nephite city and we know when the Nephite's would have arrived there, can't DNA testing be done on remains from that time frame to see if there was a foreign intrusion of DNA happening? Couldn't DNA testing show that city is not a Nephite city?

See my silly green cheese analogy above...but Mormon's and their apologist are not interested in truth...they are interested in supporting the conclusions that they have already arrived at independent of the evidence against their conclusions. They arrived at their conclusion's through special feelings they received when their own bodies released endorphins into their blood streams eliciting a burning of their bosom. No amount of conflicting data will ever convince them or move them from their heavily invested conclusions.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:37 am 
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Craig Paxton wrote:
See my silly green cheese analogy above...but Mormon's and their apologist are not interested in truth...they are interested in supporting the conclusions that they have already arrived at independent of the evidence against their conclusions. They arrived at their conclusion's through special feelings they received when their own bodies released endorphins into their blood streams eliciting a burning of their bosom. No amount of conflicting data will ever convince them or move them from their heavily invested conclusions.


Well DNA has already had a huge affect on the assertions by the church and by scholars trying to defend the church. The Book of Mormon itself has been changed as a result of DNA evidence and how the Book of Mormon is being interpreted is radically changing. Now instead of the promised land being empty of inhabitants, the latest theories are claiming they were full Lamanites. The definition of a Lamanite has gone from being directly descended from Lehi to any non Nephite population, before, during or after the Book of Mormon period.

Simon is the expert, but if apologist are going to make claims about specific spots being probable Book of Mormon cities, then can't we use DNA to eliminate those spots?

If apologist are going to say Kaminaljuyu is a great candidate for the City of Nephi because it best matches what we find in the Book of Mormon describing the City of Nephi, and then actual scientist go in and test for foreign DNA, find none and eliminate it as a candidate, not only would that shoot down that city as a candidate but it would also prove that the circumstantial evidence they used as proof it was a Nephite city is just a coincidence, casting doubt on the use of the same evidence anywhere else.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:26 pm 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
Simon,

If this city is such a great prospect for a Nephite city and we know when the Nephite's would have arrived there, can't DNA testing be done on remains from that time frame to see if there was a foreign intrusion of DNA happening? Couldn't DNA testing show that city is not a Nephite city?


Yes, if DNA was isolated from ancient remains in this city it could be tested just like the DNA of over 100 ancient Mayans has been tested. All of them had Asian lineages by the way.

I'm not all that interested in moving goalposts that are being set by apologists who unashamedly have fixed opinions at the outset. If the remains of 100 ancient Mayans from Guatemala City were tested, they would just shift the goalposts down the road. We know from the text Nephite civilisations where massive. Their DNA would be present throughout Mesoamerica. Whole genome studies are very sensitive and yet the only pre-Columbian DNA we see is Asian in origin.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:46 am 
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http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com/

interesting information

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:08 am 
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aussieguy55 wrote:
http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com/

interesting information


That's beastie's site. Has anyone heard from her recently?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:09 am 
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Simon Southerton wrote:

Yes, if DNA was isolated from ancient remains in this city it could be tested just like the DNA of over 100 ancient Mayans has been tested. All of them had Asian lineages by the way.

I'm not all that interested in moving goalposts that are being set by apologists who unashamedly have fixed opinions at the outset. If the remains of 100 ancient Mayans from Guatemala City were tested, they would just shift the goalposts down the road. We know from the text Nephite civilisations where massive. Their DNA would be present throughout Mesoamerica. Whole genome studies are very sensitive and yet the only pre-Columbian DNA we see is Asian in origin.


Thanks Simon.

I think the question is important, because a lot of the everyday members I hear defending against the DNA issue use the diffusion excuse to simply reject anything related to DNA evidence at all. So while diffusion may be a reason we cannot find middle eastern DNA in current populations, it is not applicable to DNA testing done to population contemporary to the purported Book of Mormon peoples.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:52 pm 
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When I first read posts by Brant Gardner I was suprised that someone was actually dealing with the basic problems of relating Book of Mormon to real world history. How to fit all these other people into the story. He was critical to a point which I found offensive of people naïvely expecting the story to be literal and straightforward. Critics did not understand ancient literature. I doubt Mr Gardner has a monopoly on that sort of knowledge. After all myself and a number of other people are familiar with the Old Testament which is genuinely an ancient book.

Brants point would perhaps be clearest with the comparison to that very book. Familiarity with study of it reminds us that its story has been simplified into a tale to present a religious belief. A good deal of the complexity of social conditions, political struggles and even the development of belief has been left out in order to present a clearer message oriented story. So why should we not expect something like that in the Book of Mormon. The labyrinth of real world politics is simplified into followers of Nephi and those who do not. I find myself thinking that in terms of story telling that is possible. It still does not get over the hurdle of how Nephi is to gain this power to start this story along.

But there is cement which Brant Gardner sees as an important connection between real Central America and the Book of Mormon.


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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:55 pm 
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Thanks for posting Simon. Very interesting stuff. Someone has to counter the apologetic drivel.

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