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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:28 am 
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Yes. And use evidence to support it that isn't really evidence at all, by taking it out of context.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:32 am 
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grindael wrote:
Yes. And use evidence to support it that isn't really evidence at all, by taking it out of context.


That's the whole thing. A paradigm "prefigures the field," as Hayden White put it, by designating what methods are to be used, what counts as evidence, and so on. So, if your current paradigm isn't getting the results you want, you find a new one that changes the methods and evidentiary standards.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:56 am 
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grindael wrote:
I answered Christensen, here. While fun, it was a tedious task.

https://mormonitemusings.com/2015/10/27 ... -paradigm/

The amount of lying he does is simply staggering.

Thank you for typing all that up for us, grindael. It's awesome!

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:48 pm 
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I was really upset at the time, Shades with how these Apologists were denigrating Jeremy. It was one after another, spouting lies and propaganda, and making him out to be something he definitely was not. (A scheming apostate). His honest frustrations and quest for answers are ignored, replaced with their made up narrative of him as some kind of sock-puppet of Satan. Christensen's lack of knowledge about basic Mormon history is astounding. His approach is disingenuous and deceptive. And his criticisms of Jeremy are misconstrued and phony. The Critics are wrong, because they don't take Apologist offerings seriously. But who can, when they are filled with errors, omissions and deceptions? He wanted to crucify me with David Whitmer, but as I showed, he didn't know what the hell he was talking about. They still don't.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:50 pm 
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grindael wrote:
I don't see how they can just ignore this from the text (as Simon points out):

Quote:
5 But, said he, notwithstanding our afflictions, we have obtained a land of promise, a land which is choice above all other lands; a land which the Lord God hath covenanted with me should be a land for the inheritance of my seed. Yea, the Lord hath covenanted this land unto me, and to my children forever, and also all those who should be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord.
6 Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord.
7 Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever.
8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.
9 Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise, that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves. And if it so be that they shall keep his commandments they shall be blessed upon the face of this land, and there shall be none to molest them, nor to take away the land of their inheritance; and they shall dwell safely forever. . . . [And then, after they have "rejected the gospel"...]
11 Yea, he will bring other nations unto them, and he will give unto them power, and he will take away from them the lands of their possessions, and he will cause them to be scattered and smitten.

- 2 Nephi, Chapter 1, Book of Mormon (Thanks to MormonThink for having this handy)

This is CRYSTAL CLEAR and there is no other way to interpret it, except for what it says in black and white. There is no wiggle room here. None. You simply can't give any credence to what Mormon Apologists have made up out of whole cloth.

You know, I could see, if they found some Hebrew DNA, that Nephi could have been lying here, obscuring those others. But he is specific here and the Apologists have nothing to overturn what the actual TEXT says!

There is no DNA to back up their assertions, no archaeology, just NOTHING at all. Their silly videos and books and papers and speculations carry no weight at all. They are not a "starting point". They have no starting point except for WHAT THE FREAKING TEXT ACTUALLY SAYS. But they ignore that because there is absolutely no credible evidence that the text of the Book of Mormon is anything other than a 19th century invention that has been proved a fraud.

Having been raised as a believer under the hemispheric model for the Book of Mormon and only being introduce to the limited geography model during my faith crisis while I was diving down the rabbit hole, I will have to agree with your premise. The greatest hurdle for the limited geography model is the Book of Mormon itself. The book screams hemispheric...but because of the difficulties with this model in that there is no supporting evidence, apologist had to make up a plausible explanation that they could shift attention AKA misdirection to, ergo the Limited Geography model. They did this knowing that in doing so that they would be sacrificing generations of LDS prophets and their prophetic pronouncements not to mention the D&C Moroni and the bull ____ Zelph story all which supported and bolstered the Hemispheric model. But apologists know that its ok to throw a prophet or two under the bus if by doing so it provides a protective harbor for the Book of Mormon to moore in.

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Last edited by Craig Paxton on Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:50 pm 
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grindael wrote:
I was really upset at the time, Shades with how these Apologists were denigrating Jeremy. It was one after another, spouting lies and propaganda, and making him out to be something he definitely was not. (A scheming apostate). His honest frustrations and quest for answers are ignored, replaced with their made up narrative of him as some kind of sock-puppet of Satan. Christensen's lack of knowledge about basic Mormon history is astounding. His approach is disingenuous and deceptive. And his criticisms of Jeremy are misconstrued and phony. The Critics are wrong, because they don't take Apologist offerings seriously. But who can, when they are filled with errors, omissions and deceptions? He wanted to crucify me with David Whitmer, but as I showed, he didn't know what the hell he was talking about. They still don't.


I've had nothing but positive interactions with Jeremy. He's a nice guy, and very sincere, and he doesn't deserve the vilification he's had from those folks.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:17 pm 
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grindael wrote:
I answered Christensen, here. While fun, it was a tedious task.

https://mormonitemusings.com/2015/10/27 ... -paradigm/

The amount of lying he does is simply staggering.

I thought I would read Christenson, and then your response, but i only got to Christensen's third paragraph:
Quote:
That such different responses to the same information can even exist should demonstrate that neither the issues that Runnells raises nor the information he provides is the real cause of his disillusion. What is? This is my topic.4


If so, then that should also "demonstrate that neither the issues that [Lindsay responds to] nor the information he provides is the real cause of his [illusion], right?

Somebody should really proof these Interpreter articles for logic.


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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:22 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
I thought I would read Christenson, and then your response, but i only got to Christensen's third paragraph:
Quote:
That such different responses to the same information can even exist should demonstrate that neither the issues that Runnells raises nor the information he provides is the real cause of his disillusion. What is? This is my topic.4


If so, then that should also "demonstrate that neither the issues that [Lindsay responds to] nor the information he provides is the real cause of his [illusion], right?

Somebody should really proof these Interpreter articles for logic.


That's pretty much the standard apologetic refrain: the evidence doesn't matter, just the response to it. In short, if you lose your faith, you're the one who did wrong. End of story.

It's very annoying.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:26 pm 
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Hmm, my specific response to simons opening post seems to have been caught up in the "leftovers " sweep ( is that a euphemism for something?) . Anyway, here it is:

Bernard Gui's parallelomania quotes aside (and from an 11- year- old book which he explicitly states proves nothing about historicity, if I am reading him correctly), i thought Simon made a significant point in the opening post:
Simon Southerton wrote:
there you have it. The wilderness Nephi walked through contained many Mayan towns and villages and well established farming. They walked past fields of maize and cotton and orchards of sapodilla and avocado. They erected their tents in Kaminaljyu and began their Old World farming as though nobody was there. Then "can do kinda guy" Nephi walked up to the leaders of Kaminaljuyu and took leadership of the city, organized their economic system, converted them to their foreign Hebrew beliefs and got them working on team Nephi. But he chose not to mention this part of the history on his small plates because it wasn’t important.

Apart from being totally ludicrous, this scenario raises a pile of problems. Why would the Lamanites bother to follow them, past dozens of other Mayan settlements, just to fight with them? Its madness!

How did Nephi communicate with the leaders of Kaminaljuyu? Was he miraculously able to speak their language? If his technology was so impressive why do we see no evidence of metallurgy in the archaeological record at Kaminaljuyu? Why did they still use obsidian when Nephi had introduced them to the manufacture of iron, steel, copper and brass? Why doesn’t Kaminaljuyu stand out among the dozens of other Mayan cities that were all culturally connected? Why did their agricultural system not noticeably change? Why did they keep their old-fashioned Mayan written language?

So this new and quite different interpretation of Nephi's journey came about, not out of inspired research or divine interpretation, but solely as an expediency necessary to attempt to match up with some actual archeological data the authors have currently latched onto? What happens when the next discovery has some different aspects, will the Book of Mormon story change again?


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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:33 pm 
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I moved your original post into this thread so that it appears in the correct order.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:34 pm 
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I can't remember if this was posted begore, but thanks to runtu's questions, brant responded further about how he sees, today, the opening post video:
Quote:
[Brant Gardner
Posted Tuesday at 03:15 PM

On 7/3/2018 at 10:19 AM, jkwilliams said:
As I said, the video was edited such that you were one in a series of people quoted as saying Nephi quickly took over Kaminaljuyu:

Do you believe Nephi was able to "gather large numbers of people together but to coordinate; to get them to live in the same area, to get them to have the same basic beliefs, to get them to have the same economic system, to get them working together rather than working separately and Nephi’s able to do that - pull them together" in Kaminaljuyu? Would such a change in the dominant culture, economy, religion, and political system have occurred without any noticeable change in the material culture?

[Brant:]
That video was from quite a while ago, and I would probably word things differently today. At the time, I accepted Sorenson's suggestion of Kaminaljuyu. I would not suggest it now for the very reasons that I think Sorenson liked it. I think it is too big too early. I think it was already established and there wasn't anything that the new group had to offer. Sorenson more often attributes Mesoamerican cultural developments to the presence of the Near Easterners--and I think that the direction of influence was much, much stronger in the other direction.

That doesn't really answer your question about a change in the dominant culture. To answer that, we really need to examine assumptions. We are dealing with material culture, so what is a reasonable expectation for a change in material culture?

1) Building materials and building forms. I don't see much reason for a change here. Even if we were to assume that the Lehites included someone with building skills, it was for a different climate and different building materials. I've been in Ladino buildings (modern, but no air conditioning) and In native homes in southern Mexico. The native homes were much more pleasant places to sit. So I don't see an influence on architecture.

2) Pottery styles. Again, I don't see any functional reason that local styles would change. The functions were adapted to the available foodstuffs and that wouldn't change. The Book of Mormon says that they grew transplanted grains, but I don't see that lasting very long. I don't see the material culture surrounding food to have changed much, if at all.

3) Government. There is nothing we know about Book of Mormon government that would suggest that it different from the surrounding models. Indeed, the surrounding models better explain the text.

4) Religion. This is clearly the one where we expect a change. But what would be the nature of the change? Iconographically, both Judaism and Christianity appropriated visual systems that were available in the surrounding area. Combined with the declared aniconism of the Israelite religion, it is hard to know what new iconography might have been expected, or even if it could be discernible. I can see a decrease in religious display, but even then we wouldn't expect an absence, given the way multiple iconographies existed in Israel.

So, the archaeological problem is that it is very difficult to define what we might expect of a Lehite-influenced culture, even in the rare realm in which they imparted culture (religion) rather than absorbed it.


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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:47 am 
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Lemmie wrote:
I can't remember if this was posted begore, but thanks to runtu's questions, brant responded further about how he sees, today, the opening post video:

Quote:
[SNIP!]

Thanks for posting. Just as I suspected, 90+ year old Sorenson rules the roost in the exFARMs chook house. The doco was filmed 4-5 years ago and Gardner is already retreating.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:06 am 
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Simon Southerton wrote:
Thanks for posting. Just as I suspected, 90+ year old Sorenson rules the roost in the exFARMs chook house. The doco was filmed 4-5 years ago and Gardner is already retreating.

More of Horton hears a Nephite.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:31 am 
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These guys find "hebrewisms", or possible Egyptian names Pahoran and such in the Book of Mormon, paint a circle around it and claim a bullseye.

Show that these names were actually in use amongst the populace then you might have something, else wise it is like looking for hebrewisms in Tolkien, and claiming that dwarves are real because Gimli is ancient summerian.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:14 am 
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In reading a comment elsewhere by Tom, I was reminded that Phillip Jenkins, in the course of responding to Hamblin and Rappleye, had made some hilarious filming recommendations that might improve the opening post video here:
Jenkins wrote:
And then look what Neal Rappleye has to say, as his claim:
Rappleye wrote:
“Such convergence strongly suggests that the Book of Mormon is a particular version of Mesoamerican history–a version written from the perspective of a minority elite who traced their lineage to a small immigrant group from Palestine and maintained a form of Israelite religion.”
A minority elite, that never made a mark, never did much, never grew to any size or significance… just a bunch of boring stay at home Guatemalans.

Why do we have that decline? Because Neal wants, of religious necessity, to believe in the Book of Mormon, but he is astute enough to know how slim-to-non-existent are the forms of evidence that can be offered to grown ups. The only way he can get around this is to postulate a story that makes no impact on the wider real world narrative, and where he has any number of possible let outs to explain the absolute lack of evidence for his cause.

...I would say that the ”minority elite” story involves suspending a lot of the Book of Mormon narrative and assumptions, but hey, that’s his problem not mine.

It is a nice picture though. Instead of the mighty Nephite cities and civilizations dreamed of in days of yore, we have a tiny bunch of Semitic-derived transients, shouting “Look out, everyone, here comes the Gaze of Historical Research! Oh no, they’re looking for Objective Evidence! Everyone go hide behind a palm tree until they’ve gone. Thank heavens we are just a minority elite.”

That could be a great film. Does Mel Brooks do Mormon stuff?


...Does that sound like I’m making fun of you? Of course I am, but I am also asking a centrally relevant question. You have made this ludicrous assertion about Israelite religion in the New World. Produce one shred of non-faith based evidence to prove it.

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. Hilariously improbable ones demand no less.

From: Apples, Oranges and Nephites
posted: July 12, 2015 by Philip Jenkins, on his blog entitled AnxiousBench.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/anxiousben ... d-oranges/


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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:58 pm 
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This thread is so critically important and fascinating in so many ways! THANKS to all who have shared their knowledge. I am SOOOOOOOOOOO glad to have this board to learn from!

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:45 pm 
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Here's the gripe I have with this thread: even the most trenchant criticism levied so far doesn't do justice to the rampant idiocy that is the notion---it's not a theory, it's not even an idea---propounded by Mopologists in the opening post. Like mighty Nephi, we should delight in plainness. As in, talking plainly about the degree of utter lunacy it takes for an otherwise functional adult to spout such an exquisite degree of nonsense that you're willing to posit with a straight face that a handful of Hebrew refugees staged a silent coup and took over the Mayan civilization.

It's like Mopologists and their patrons have some kind of intellectual autoimmune disease, where the mind's defenses against even the most pernicious ____ have been weakened so much by constant autophagy that it's too weak to fight off the infection when it comes. The constant stream of non-theories and ad hoc speculation and ass-pulls just wear down whatever the psyche's version of T-cells are, and then, one day, you can't resist anything anymore and you're publicly appearing in a video saying without irony that you think Nephi was the king of the ____ Mayans.

Maybe we're part of the problem. Maybe we're like hospice workers who have watched so many people die from pneumonia or the common cold that we don't even understand anymore how remarkable it is that there are healthy people around who can resist this ____ with no conscious effort. We sit on this board, or some other board, or go out and have drinks, or whatever, and think nothing of the fact that THERE ARE GROWN MEN WITH A SIDE HUSTLE OF TELLING PEOPLE THERE WERE CHRISTIAN HEBREW TAPIR RANCHERS IN PRE-COLUMBIAN MEXICO. It's just like, "Yeah, some people like Led Zeppelin, some people like to go fishing, AND SOME PEOPLE THINK AN UNDEAD NATIVE AMERICAN TELEPORTED INTO THE VILLAGE MAGICIAN'S LOG CABIN TO TELL HIM ABOUT THE BURIED TREASURE THAT TELLS ABOUT PRE-COLUMBIAN HEBREWS WHO SILENTLY TOOK OVER THE MAYAN EMPIRE FROM WITHIN. Different strokes for different folks, right?"

This isn't normal human behavior. This isn't like how all of us have some quirky or stupid ideas, or how it's common that people believe in the supernatural, or funny little superstitions, or what have you. This is a willingness to believe unspeakably stupid things about the tangible, physical world. And all of us are too comfortable with it. It's a kind of provincialism in itself to think this kind of insanity is within the normal range of what religious people might believe.

Imagine this kind of stupidity in any other context. Imagine that a grown man who has no other apparent signs of being completely ____ insane came up to you and said, in the most maudlin sincerity, that his scholarship and faith have led him to conclude that the Norman invasion of England in C.E. 1066 is evidence that The Return of the King is a true story, the Normans were the Numenor, and William the Conqueror was Aragorn.

How much time would you spend working on a rebuttal to this? Because this hypothetical is not different in any way at all from the indescribable gibberish set forth in the opening post. And sometimes we actually take a moment to entertain this nonsense.

On second thought, let me walk that back a little bit. It really is an apples and oranges comparison to talk about The Book of Mormon and The Lord of the Rings in the same breath. One of them is a serious work about fundamental questions about faith, cosmology, salvation, and good and evil, set against a backdrop of compelling military conquests, difficult journeys, and divine intervention, in an internally consistent and rich narrative that no uneducated person could have produced.

The other is the Book of Mormon.

I worry that at best, we're getting numb to watching this slow and unrelenting death from things a healthy person would shrug off. And at worst, maybe we're not baffled enough because you can only be around contagion so much before it gets on you, too. Not that you even momentarily consider this idiocy. But that you get used to it.


Last edited by Darth J on Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:54 am 
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Darth J wrote:

I worry that at best, we're getting numb to watching this slow and unrelenting death from things a healthy person would shrug off. And at worst, maybe we're not baffled enough because you can only be around contagion so much before it gets on you, too. Not that you even momentarily consider this idiocy. But that you get used to it.


Earlier this year I found myself, on a flight from Denver to DC, sitting next to a talkative historian. He was a specialist in transAtlantic commodities and we talked for a good hour. I did mention the Book of Mormon and some details and he was amused. Never had it been so clear how ridiculous it is from the outset.

This is exactly why we can get stuck in the cycles of rehashing, because it's only a rare nonMormon who understands the power of indoctrination, who doesn't just dismiss the truth crisis and faith trauma experience. So we go back where we're understood.

That conversation on the airplane was very gratifying, it was a real-world expert affirmation of verifiable fact. I feel very little need to rehash the Book of Mormon. I have, however, chosen to focus on today's church and the most urgent necessary repairs it is morally obligated to make. Nephi is symbolic of the complete abdication we're asked to make in the church, of our personal moral codes. His story is still damaging and for me, that is why he is still relevant.

(How's that for a paradoxical post?)


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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:14 am 
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Darth J wrote:
I worry that at best, we're getting numb to watching this slow and unrelenting death from things a healthy person would shrug off. And at worst, maybe we're not baffled enough because you can only be around contagion so much before it gets on you, too. Not that you even momentarily consider this idiocy. But that you get used to it.


I think there's something to this. The other day two apologists said to me on the other board that steel/metal was one of the "last" unresolved issues or anachronisms in the Book of Mormon. I was respectful, but I don't know how anyone could say such an absurd thing with a straight face. How are you supposed to respond to that?

Sometimes I think apologetics is more about the apologist's desperate need to believe his or her faith in the Book of Mormon isn't irrational. It's driven more by fear than anything else.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:08 am 
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Darth J,

Holy slippery treasures, Batman! You said,

Quote:
Imagine this kind of stupidity in any other context. ...


I can. Trumpism. It's like he's been possessed by the ghost of Jo Smith, but without all the religious baggage. I mean, men on the moon dressed like Quakers? Really? The "lost" 10 Tribes are on a broken off piece of the earth circling around and around and will someday land that huge rock and be welcomed back with their "great prophets" along with John the Revelator? Wives? Really? Wives? l look around and can see only one. Damn the Expositor to hell, it's all FAKE ____ NEWS. No collusion, no collusion, no collusion... And who the hell is Stormy Daniels? I didn't pay her off... oh wait, yes I did. Brigham Young to one of his wives: "Don't be alone in a room with Smitty". Or the master groper Trump.

Do ya think Smitty could have said that he could shoot someone on Main Street in Nauvoo and it wouldn't make a tittle of difference to his followers? I can picture that. The Book of Mormon or the Art of the Deal? Both fiction. Like Smitty & ancient languages, Trump wouldn't know how to "deal" if his life depended on it. Just promise a bunch of ____ and then don't pay them. Bank scandals and Tax evasion and bankruptcies.

I am baffled and incredulous that there are "Trumpites" that defend this turd. Yet, here we are. They sure mimic the Book of Mormon defenders with their continual BS and dogged loyalty to alternative facts. Imagine if Smith had lived and became President! We're seeing it now. Ship all the blacks to Mexico and close up the borders to those brown skinned cockroaches. We don't want to mingle with them, we'll lose our precious WHITE identity! They all have the curse of the black skin, so send ''em to Mexico where all colors are alike. Wanna be autocrats.

And the press. The enemy of the state. Burn it down. Lock up the reporters. The Expositor or the New York Times... all fake news and they must be destroyed. Vilify any competition... It's all THEIR fault, I'm squeaky clean and it's all a plot to destroy me because I'm so PURE.

Putin's puppet or the puppet of "Jehovah". The secular and the religious sides of the same coin. We're in an episode of the Twilight Zone. Please tell me it's all a dream.

_________________

Riding on a speeding train;
trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain;
Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world
can change your direction:
One step where events converge
may alter your perception.


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