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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:17 am 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
I haven't been persuaded one way or the other through the external evidences pro or con. Although I do think there is enough external evidence to keep an open mind. I am more interested at this point in [something else] ...


Gosh. MG has no definite position of any kind on the issues discussed in the OP. In fact he isn't even interested in them, but is devoting his mental energies to another matter altogether.

And this is interesting ... how?

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:49 am 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:
Why keep doing the same thing over and over and over again?

This.

Dr. Shades wrote:
Chap wrote:
I have reported the blatant derail. MG is up to his usual games.

[MODERATOR NOTE: Simon, are you fine with this as an example of the typical conversational drift, or do you want the focus of this thread to return to Nephi and his can-do-ness?]

Well, so far as I can see, the fact that SS later commented (though frankly dismissively) on MG's attempt to change the topic from 'Nephi amongst the Mayans' to 'Wordprint studies yet again' seems to have been taken as permitting the derail (as several of us evidently see it).

And so here we are again: a good, clear, fact-based thread of interest to a number of serious posters has been diverted into yet another vague foggy 'I'm not entirely convinced by ... I'm open to the possibility that ...' MG-centred fuzz-fest.

Is this good for the health and interest of the board? No, it is not.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:27 pm 
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You know, once this thread was devoted to discussing a really interesting OP, that ended not long after saying:

Quote:
This is the most pitiable apologetics I have encountered. It’s hardly surprising given Sorenson and Gardner are career apologists with essentially no publication history in peer-reviewed scientific literature. They have never experienced the intellectual rigour of peer-review outside of the BYU echo chamber. It was particularly sad to hear Alejandro Gonzalez whitewash over the true history of his people. The blatant racist, cultural imperialism in this apologetics is hard to stomach, particularly from a Native American. To make matters worse both Sorenson and Gardner have their names appear in the DVD when they are speaking. Gonzalez, who is the Director of the Teotihuacan Archaeological Zone in Mexico appears nameless and tieless and is only acknowledged in the end credits.

At some point it must get less embarrassing to face up to the fraud than to continue to perpetuate it. Are we there yet?


Hard-hitting stuff!

No wonder MG felt he had to put in an appearance and derail it. Thereafter it became the usual tedious and repetitious rubbish that MG specialises in.

That result was wholly predictable, and achieved nothing but to make the board less interesting, and less worth anyone's bothering to post interesting material on. So why was it allowed to happen?

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:08 pm 
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Chap wrote:
That result was wholly predictable, and achieved nothing but to make the board less interesting, and less worth anyone's bothering to post interesting material on. So why was it allowed to happen?

I should've immediately recognized the first mention of a wordprint study as a change of subject and split it into its own thread. So the reason it happened was because of my lack of due diligence.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:05 pm 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
Chap wrote:
That result was wholly predictable, and achieved nothing but to make the board less interesting, and less worth anyone's bothering to post interesting material on. So why was it allowed to happen?

I should've immediately recognized the first mention of a wordprint study as a change of subject and split it into its own thread. So the reason it happened was because of my lack of due diligence.


Do you mind saying what, if anything, happens next here? I've been watching this thread zone in and out, and away from topic. I've tried not to clutter it up with my own peanut gallery remarks, though I did make one.

And, I did notice that Simon never responded to your inquiry.

Is this a case where the thread will be split or is it too far gone for that? Will the re-offender be put on the queue or warned or what exactly is going on here with this? I see some tension on the thread and while that's not fatal, can we know what is going on with regards to decisions or no decisions at all?

Feel free to tell me to butt out.

[/stickingmynosein]

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:07 am 
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Chap wrote:
What would be good would be if moderators would stop him from doing this tired old trick over and over again. Why don't they?

This. Simon produced a very interesting beginning and MG shows up with his same old monkey wrench. When he does this it should always be split off into its own thread and left to endlessly loop itself out.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:20 am 
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Maksutov wrote:
Chap wrote:
What would be good would be if moderators would stop him from doing this tired old trick over and over again. Why don't they?

This. Simon produced a very interesting beginning and MG shows up with his same old monkey wrench. When he does this it should always be split off into its own thread and left to endlessly loop itself out.

Agreed. Two moderators commented on the derailment issue on page 4. After that mg posted approx 12 more times, irrelevantly, about wordprints, not contributing to the conversation or responding to questions about his wordprint statements, with 4 or 5 more about his perceived victimhood status. Many people tried to ignore it and keep the topic going. Telling us now, on page 9, that it was a derailment is supremely redundant.

If mg wants to "testify" (I have a different word for it), let him have his own threads to do so.


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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:19 am 
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Lemmie wrote:
Two moderators commented on the derailment issue on page 4


I can only see one moderator response on that page:

viewtopic.php?p=1128459#p1128459

But I do wish it had simply announced a thread split rather than putting the responsibility on the OP, Simon Southerton, who does not seem to have expressed an opinion either way.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:30 am 
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Chap wrote:
Lemmie wrote:
Two moderators commented on the derailment issue on page 4


I can only see one moderator response on that page:

viewtopic.php?p=1128459#p1128459

Res ipsa, twice, a couple of posts above Shades. First he said
res ipsa, to mentalgymnast wrote:
Maybe for the same reason you want to talk bout word prints rather than the topic of the thread?
And the second time he said:
res ipsa, to mentalgymnast, wrote:
Right, as long as the derail is on a topic that interests you, it's okay. :lol:
viewtopic.php?p=1128444#p1128444
but you are correct, his comments were not in red. I just meant two moderators were aware of the issue, assuming RI the personal poster shares his memories with RI the moderator! :lol:
Chap wrote:
But I do wish it had simply announced a thread split rather than putting the responsibility on the OP, Simon Southerton, who does not seem to have expressed an opinion either way.

Agreed.


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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:36 pm 
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Beating a dead horse here. Derail done, as is MG. He accomplished his task. If anyone wants to resurrect the original premise of this thread NOW is the time, instead of continuing to complain about our predictable Apologist.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:36 pm 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
Craig Paxton wrote:
See my silly green cheese analogy above...but Mormon's and their apologist are not interested in truth...they are interested in supporting the conclusions that they have already arrived at independent of the evidence against their conclusions. They arrived at their conclusion's through special feelings they received when their own bodies released endorphins into their blood streams eliciting a burning of their bosom. No amount of conflicting data will ever convince them or move them from their heavily invested conclusions.


Well DNA has already had a huge affect on the assertions by the church and by scholars trying to defend the church. The Book of Mormon itself has been changed as a result of DNA evidence and how the Book of Mormon is being interpreted is radically changing. Now instead of the promised land being empty of inhabitants, the latest theories are claiming they were full Lamanites. The definition of a Lamanite has gone from being directly descended from Lehi to any non Nephite population, before, during or after the Book of Mormon period.

Simon is the expert, but if apologist are going to make claims about specific spots being probable Book of Mormon cities, then can't we use DNA to eliminate those spots?

If apologist are going to say Kaminaljuyu is a great candidate for the City of Nephi because it best matches what we find in the Book of Mormon describing the City of Nephi, and then actual scientist go in and test for foreign DNA, find none and eliminate it as a candidate, not only would that shoot down that city as a candidate but it would also prove that the circumstantial evidence they used as proof it was a Nephite city is just a coincidence, casting doubt on the use of the same evidence anywhere else.


That was the last post before MG staggered onto the stage with the immortal line:

mentalgymnast wrote:
Simon Southerton wrote:
In other words Mormons need to stop thinking about what the Book of Mormon actually says...


I think Mormons are actually better off sticking to what the BofM says rather than getting too wrapped up in apologetics.


Apologetics: in a religious context, the form of writing that explains why some religious belief may reasonably be held. Yup. They'd be better off not attempting the impossible. Next time, MG, just stop there.

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That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:54 pm 
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grindael wrote:
Beating a dead horse here. Derail done, as is MG. He accomplished his task.


If you want to consider it a derail, that's up to you. It's not worth arguing whether or not it is. I've already given my reasons for entering into the thread.

I left the thread because my wife and I left on the 3rd to visit a married son and his wife who had another baby. We're back in Missouri visiting and helping out.

They know how to do fireworks back here. :smile:

But yeah, I'm done on this thread. I made my points, others made theirs. I've stated why I believe stylometric word analysis to be important...along with other things...in regards to the looking a BofM historicity. I don't think that evidence or lack of evidence (DNA) should supplant other efforts/research that are scientifically based. Simon didn't seem to be overly bothered that I entered into the thread to basically state as much. Truth be told, I didn't really expect that it would really go anywhere.

Anyway, I'm off this thread, and I'm glad to see that it continued on. :smile:

Regards,
MG


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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:57 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
If you want to consider it a derail, that's up to you. It's not worth arguing whether or not it is. I've already given my reasons for entering into the thread.

I left the thread because my wife and I left on the 3rd to visit a married son and his wife who had another baby. We're back in Missouri visiting and helping out.

They know how to do fireworks back here. :smile:

But yeah, I'm done on this thread. I made my points, others made theirs. I've stated why I believe stylometric word analysis to be important...along with other things...in regards to the looking a BofM historicity. I don't think that evidence or lack of evidence (DNA) should supplant other efforts/research that are scientifically based. Simon didn't seem to be overly bothered that I entered into the thread to basically state as much. Truth be told, I didn't really expect that it would really go anywhere.

Anyway, I'm off this thread, and I'm glad to see that it continued on. :smile:

Regards,
MG


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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:39 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:

If you want to consider it a derail, that's up to you. It's not worth arguing whether or not it is. I've already given my reasons for entering into the thread.

I left the thread because my wife and I left on the 3rd to visit a married son and his wife who had another baby. We're back in Missouri visiting and helping out.

They know how to do fireworks back here. :smile:

But yeah, I'm done on this thread. I made my points, others made theirs. I've stated why I believe stylometric word analysis to be important...along with other things...in regards to the looking a BofM historicity. I don't think that evidence or lack of evidence (DNA) should supplant other efforts/research that are scientifically based. Simon didn't seem to be overly bothered that I entered into the thread to basically state as much. Truth be told, I didn't really expect that it would really go anywhere.

Anyway, I'm off this thread, and I'm glad to see that it continued on. :smile:

Regards,
MG



You didn't really expect the thread to go anywhere. It started running off the rails as soon as you entered it. I'd love to take apart your above piece by piece, but I see little advantage in investing time trying to speak truth to stupid.

I left the thread.
I'm done on this thread.
I'm off this thread.

So when can we expect you to actually be off the thread?

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:44 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:

If you want to consider it a derail, that's up to you. It's not worth arguing whether or not it is. I've already given my reasons for entering into the thread.

I left the thread because my wife and I left on the 3rd to visit a married son and his wife who had another baby. We're back in Missouri visiting and helping out.

They know how to do fireworks back here. :smile:

But yeah, I'm done on this thread. I made my points, others made theirs. I've stated why I believe stylometric word analysis to be important...along with other things...in regards to the looking a BofM historicity. I don't think that evidence or lack of evidence (DNA) should supplant other efforts/research that are scientifically based. Simon didn't seem to be overly bothered that I entered into the thread to basically state as much. Truth be told, I didn't really expect that it would really go anywhere.

Anyway, I'm off this thread, and I'm glad to see that it continued on. :smile:

Regards,
MG




mentalgymnast wrote:
grindael wrote:
You IGNORE the actual text and WHAT IT SAYS, instead you regurgitate esoteric "studies" that are totally meaningless when you have what the Book of Mormon ACTUALLY SAYS in front of you.


Hi grindael, your post was rather long and tedious. But not unexpected.

This comment I found interesting. Rather than focusing wholly on what the BofM "SAYS", I think it is also important to focus on what the BofM IS. That is, the compositional aspects of the BofM text. It is the composition...multiple authors, Hebrew poetry/chiasmus, and other internal structural topics that many apologists have covered in great detail...that I think we also need to focus on rather than ignore.

I repeat, since apparently this was something not picked up on in my earlier posts, the text ITSELF and its complexity/composition needs to be taken into account. Not JUST what it says, although that is important also.

Regards,
MG

P.S. to Jersey...I think I'm probably done with this thread now. Just responding to other posters that were referring to me and/or something I said.


See? This is where speaking truth to stupid gets you, people. Why waste your time with a waste of time?

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:00 pm 
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grindael wrote:
Even Jersey chimed in that you were being disingenuous:
Quote:
Why keep doing the same thing over and over and over again?

Listen, I was trying to keep my mouth shut over here. I'd been reading the thread and I know good and well as soon as mg enters, it's going to derail so why bother with it? And yet, I checked back in to see my prophesy fulfilled. A derail was identified by a moderator (no less) on page 4. TWICE. Doesn't split the thread? You are joking. Now it's about to roll over to page 12 and buddy boy is still here rambling on about himself, how he left there thread, is leaving the thread, is still ON the thread. I have no idea how you people endure such antics. I serioulsy do not.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:34 pm 
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grindael wrote:

Even Jersey chimed in that you were being disingenuous:
Jersey Girl wrote:
Why keep doing the same thing over and over and over again?

Jersey Girl wrote:
Listen, I was trying to keep my mouth shut over here. I'd been reading the thread and I know good and well as soon as mg enters, it's going to derail so why bother with it? And yet, I checked back in to see my prophesy fulfilled. A derail was identified by a moderator (no less) on page 4. TWICE. Doesn't split the thread? You are joking. Now it's about to roll over to page 12 and buddy boy is still here rambling on about himself, how he left there thread, is leaving the thread, is still ON the thread. I have no idea how you people endure such antics. I serioulsy do not.

:lol: :lol: Sometimes you just have to laugh it off.

For example, mentalgymnast is using as his signature line a comment made by Water Dog. The thing is, Water Dog made the statement ironically, but mentalgymnast is quoting it as though it is a statement of fact. Now THAT'S funny!


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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:33 am 
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Grindael makes one personal attack and it gets moderated out, MG posts a prolific amount of trolling/derailing page after page....and...........nothing.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:38 am 
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I have a question wrote:
Grindael makes one personal attack and it gets moderated out, MG posts a prolific amount of trolling/derailing page after page....and...........nothing.


I don't object to the moderation of personal attacks: that shows that the mods are doing their job.

I do wish, however, that they would be a little more concerned than they seem to be with MG's constant campaign of derails of substantive threads by posts that basically say "Rather than talk about the thread topic, I want to talk yet again about ... myself."

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That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:36 am 
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Lemmie wrote:
That's mentalgymnast's goal, always. That, and disrupting substantive threads.

Simon, if that's what Mormon apologetics is now reduced to, then Mormon apologetics is trolling. Personally, I don't see it. I see other Mormon apologists playing fast and loose with facts all over the place,, but I don't see them troll threads here.

I don't see them here, contradicting themselves repeatedly solely to be disruptive, using passive aggressive innuendo repeatedly to derail until someone responds and then posting repeatedly on their victimhood status, and then talking about themselves repeatedly, especially about how they have disrupted things. In other words, i don't see other Mormon apologists using identical forms of disruption over and over to derail thread after thread here.

This idea of needing to be 'a voice of moderation' on an 'echo chamber' is simply a convenient vehicle for generating the sadistic pleasure of trolling. Hiding behind apologetics and taking advantage of the goal here to encourage LDS voices is how he gets to keep doing it. Its a brilliant plan, really. Where else is there such a back door loophole?!


You'll notice that I don't often engage MG's posts, even though I'm probably one of the very few people here who think he's being sincere. It's frustrating to have a discussion with someone who is so inconsistent in their approach. The best way to not derail a thread is not to respond when someone tries to derail it.

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 Post subject: Re: Nephi: A can do kinda guy
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:07 am 
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Runtu wrote:
You'll notice that I don't often engage MG's posts, even though I'm probably one of the very few people here who think he's being sincere. It's frustrating to have a discussion with someone who is so inconsistent in their approach. The best way to not derail a thread is not to respond when someone tries to derail it.

Agreed, but Chap made an excellent point about how we all pretty much agree with that in theory and yet as a practical solution it doesn't work. People don't want to let things stand, unchallenged. That's a normal part of discussion, but it's being taken advantage of. I think the best way to consistently keep threads from being derailed is to move the derailments, a process that moderation already has in place and uses.


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