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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:28 pm 
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grindael wrote:
Yeah, it was normal to call it the 15th year. But in the 1832 account Joseph says that from ages 12 to 15, he "contemplated" many things, and then in the "16th year of his age" he went to pray. This is just way off. Then a year later, he sees an angel? Uh-uh, that doesn't work. Scrap this account. But in a few years, he gets it down with his account to Robert Matthews...


It's clear evidence that Smith was having trouble keeping his math consistent while telling tales. Suppose he had gotten the math right and told a consistent story. Mormon apologists would be milking that to the hilt and boast how the inspiration and instrumentality of the Spirit allowed the prophet to perfectly detail the accounts of his glorious visions and maintained a consistent story through the years. Too bad the apologists don't get that luxury. Not by a long shot. The apologists are left picking up pieces that don't add up -- it disagrees and contradicts.

Frankly, I don't believe the First Vision account any more than I do the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3. Smith was a total loser and a liar. He lied about seeing God and he lied about translating Egyptian.

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:15 pm 
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Yeah Shulem, one thing that I brought up in the Podcast was that these "prophets" claim to have the gift of the Holy Ghost, and Christ said (and so did Smith) that it would enable them to remember perfectly what happened to them when they interacted with God. So where is that vaunted gift of the Spirit? Nowhere to be found. They will claim when they can, divine aid, but when there are so many mistakes, they make secular arguments about memory and how faulty it is. It's just plain hypocritical.

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:19 pm 
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James E. Faust,
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I believe that the Spirit of the Holy Ghost is the surest guardian of our inner peace. It can be more mind-expanding and can make us have a better sense of well-being than any chemical or other earthly substance. This Comforter can be with us as we seek to improve. It can function as a source of revelation to warn us of impending danger and also help to keep us from making mistakes. It can enhance our natural senses so that we can see more clearly, hear more keenly, and remember what we should remember. It helps us to be happy.

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:21 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
Wrong! You're lying Joseph Fielding Smith and you know it. You know full well that the 1832 account written in Joseph Smith's own hand says absolutely nothing about Smith seeing two Personages.

Would you have prevented Franco Zeffirelli or Arthur Laurents, Leonard Bernstein and Stephen Sondheim from making small alterations or even reinterpreting Shakespear's Romeo and Juliet in a west side New York setting and adding in music?

What if Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm wished to rewrite any of their tales? Remember, the Church holds the copyright to Smith's works.

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:52 pm 
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grindael wrote:
Yeah, it was normal to call it the 15th year. But in the 1832 account Joseph says that from ages 12 to 15, he "contemplated" many things, and then in the "16th year of his age" he went to pray. This is just way off. Then a year later, he sees an angel? Uh-uh, that doesn't work. Scrap this account. But in a few years, he gets it down with his account to Robert Matthews...

So Orson Hyde's German pamphlet says fifteenth. It's interesting to me that if a person looked carefully then, they could see holes in the stories, too. But once indoctrination is in place, the holes matter less.


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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:56 am 
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Meadowchik wrote:
grindael wrote:
Yeah, it was normal to call it the 15th year. But in the 1832 account Joseph says that from ages 12 to 15, he "contemplated" many things, and then in the "16th year of his age" he went to pray. This is just way off. Then a year later, he sees an angel? Uh-uh, that doesn't work. Scrap this account. But in a few years, he gets it down with his account to Robert Matthews...

So Orson Hyde's German pamphlet says fifteenth. It's interesting to me that if a person looked carefully then, they could see holes in the stories, too. But once indoctrination is in place, the holes matter less.


The holes become evidence of its genuineness.

If the account was perfect some might suggest that is evidence that it was manufactured, because real people make mistakes and leave holes etc. Believers would say that its perfection is evidence of its genuineness/truthfulness.

If the account has holes some might suggest that is evidence that it was manufactured, because real people make mistakes and leave holes etc. Believers would say that its lack of perfection is evidence of its genuineness/truthfulness.

It’s subjective.

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:35 am 
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I have a question wrote:

The holes become evidence of its genuineness.

If the account was perfect some might suggest that is evidence that it was manufactured, because real people make mistakes and leave holes etc. Believers would say that its perfection is evidence of its genuineness/truthfulness.

If the account has holes some might suggest that is evidence that it was manufactured, because real people make mistakes and leave holes etc. Believers would say that its lack of perfection is evidence of its genuineness/truthfulness.

It’s subjective.


Sure, the holes can be made into evidence of genuineness by people already disposed to believe or who already believe.

Yet for an outside observer, the holes or discrepencies of stories are simply evidence that they are stories. The stories themselves don't have any intrinsic authority. People do not generally swallow the power-allocating tales of others without an incentive to do so.

In other words, existing belief makes stories more important than they are. But a mind concerned more with objective reality will have access to the clues, the holes, if they look.


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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:40 am 
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Meadowchik wrote:
I have a question wrote:

The holes become evidence of its genuineness.

If the account was perfect some might suggest that is evidence that it was manufactured, because real people make mistakes and leave holes etc. Believers would say that its perfection is evidence of its genuineness/truthfulness.

If the account has holes some might suggest that is evidence that it was manufactured, because real people make mistakes and leave holes etc. Believers would say that its lack of perfection is evidence of its genuineness/truthfulness.

It’s subjective.


Sure, the holes can be made into evidence of genuineness by people already disposed to believe or who already believe.

Yet for an outside observer, the holes or discrepencies of stories are simply evidence that they are stories. The stories themselves don't have any intrinsic authority. People do not generally swallow the power-allocating tales of others without an incentive to do so.

In other words, existing belief makes stories more important than they are. But a mind concerned more with objective reality will have access to the clues, the holes, if they look.


I believe the official term is “confirmation bias”

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:32 am 
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I have a question wrote:

I believe the official term is “confirmation bias”


Yes and it's a vast space, unfortunately. Why else would Dan Peterson remain invested in his apologetics? Like many of us were, it's likely because he's still thoroughly in his bias, and not just financially, although that would not be a small variable, but psychologically. You can think you're being open-minded when you've barely scratched the dirt off the glass because the view beyond is psychologically untenable.

I think that our brains protect us from ideas that threaten the existing framework. We have to build a partially-redundant scaffolding in order to minimize excessive influence of dogma. I think I was building redundnat scaffolding when I used reason and science to undergird some of my religion-based choices throughout my life. The more I did that, the more I prepared myself to survive the collapse in my life of the church's authority framework and for a healthier way of living.

Unfortunately, I think that the type of dishonesty we are seeing in Peterson's writings serve to undermine the chances of alternative scaffolding.


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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:19 am 
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The First Account (1832) of the First Vision (1820) should be taken as the Original Account. It's the one which offers the freshest expressions and explanation to what allegedly occurred. This is the account which is closest to the time in question and the testimony is more like an innocent baby which Smith just birthed. This account offers raw impressions and first hand experience of his early so-called prophetic thinking. Later, in 1838, the extended account becomes more detailed and the story more distanced as Smith doctors up his original story with new twists and turns. It's more than just line upon line and precept upon precept. It's changing the original size and shape and coming up with a whole new concept altogether. Smith's later account of the First Vision is a direct contradiction to his original statement and bears the hallmarks of one who fabricates and embellishes.

The First Account of the First Vision is Smith's original baby and he threw it out with the bathwater in order to make something else fit his current thinking.

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:30 am 
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Shulem wrote:
The First Account of the First Vision is Smith's original baby and he threw it out with the bathwater in order to make something else fit his current thinking.


In other words, Smith jettisoned the Trinity in order to develop a whole new concept and interpretation of the New Testament God. He threw everything into his newfound idea to include the kitchen sink -- the Father having a body as tangible as man's.

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:35 am 
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Shulem wrote:
Shulem wrote:
The First Account of the First Vision is Smith's original baby and he threw it out with the bathwater in order to make something else fit his current thinking.


In other words, Smith jettisoned the Trinity in order to develop a whole new concept and interpretation of the New Testament God. He threw everything into his newfound idea to include the kitchen sink -- the Father having a body as tangible as man's.


It’s worth remembering that Smith’s Mormonism was a new Start Up in a very competitive and already congested market. He had to find new and unique features to draw people away from the Baptist and Methodist religious camps that were so popular.

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:50 am 
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I have a question wrote:
It’s worth remembering that Smith’s Mormonism was a new Start Up in a very competitive and already congested market. He had to find new and unique features to draw people away from the Baptist and Methodist religious camps that were so popular.


Exactly and Smith set out to overthrow the Catholic and Protestant church and supplant it with something entirely different with himself as the prophet-king based in America. But why would anyone want Mormon crunchberries when you can have the traditional flavor of Catholic crunch?

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:53 am 
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Shulem wrote:
The First Account (1832) of the First Vision (1820) should be taken as the Original Account. It's the one which offers the freshest expressions and explanation to what allegedly occurred. This is the account which is closest to the time in question and the testimony is more like an innocent baby which Smith just birthed.


I agree.

And it is problematic that a less legitimate account usurps its place in the LDS canon. That is, if the church's canonical intent is historical accuracy.


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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:10 am 
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I have a question wrote:

It’s worth remembering that Smith’s Mormonism was a new Start Up in a very competitive and already congested market. He had to find new and unique features to draw people away from the Baptist and Methodist religious camps that were so popular.


That's a good reminder. Starting a new business, ie. plumbing, restaurant, priestcraft, is hard work!


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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:02 am 
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Shulem's Church of Christ
Summer of 1832

Dear Reverend Joseph Smith of the Mormons,

Thank you for sharing your visionary experience you had as a boy in the state of New York. Although it is generally believed and accepted by Christian churches throughout the land that visions and angelic appearances ceased with the apostles: Nonetheless, good sir, we always must keep an open mind to the will and power of God knowing full well that God has promised in the revelations of Saint John that angels will do a work in the last days and an angel flies through the midst of heaven.

It is my sincere hope, as a fellow Christian minister, that you sir, will continue to preach the gospel of Christ crucified to the Church of Christ in whom you lead. As long as you preach Christ crucified as you declared in your vision and that God is a spirit and that his power is manifested in the spirit then you can find fellowship with the Christian community. As Christians we believe in God the Father, his Son, and the Holy Ghost which is one God and was manifested in the flesh in Jesus Christ.

It is reported that you teach God is a spirit and we must worship him in spirit and in truth. For this you are commended.

As ever,

Your friend in Christ,

Reverend Shulem

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:15 am 
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He had to find new and unique features to draw people away from the Baptist and Methodist religious camps that were so popular.


He had that, the Book of Mormon. When the Book of Abraham and all that came along, he was trying to recreate that "magic". But for some reason, it was much more difficult, huh? Think about it, Smith supposedly banged out the Book of Mormon in a couple of months, but took years to get the Book of Abraham (what little we have) "translated"?

I find that very odd, myself. I mean, he had multiple willing scribes and lots of time to do it.

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:38 am 
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Shulem wrote:
I have a question wrote:
It’s worth remembering that Smith’s Mormonism was a new Start Up in a very competitive and already congested market. He had to find new and unique features to draw people away from the Baptist and Methodist religious camps that were so popular.


Exactly and Smith set out to overthrow the Catholic and Protestant church and supplant it with something entirely different with himself as the prophet-king based in America. But why would anyone want Mormon crunchberries when you can have the traditional flavor of Catholic crunch?

Image
I happen to know that Captain Crunch is Scott Lloyd's favorite cereal...wish you could put this up in MD@D. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:50 am 
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grindael wrote:
He had that, the Book of Mormon. When the Book of Abraham and all that came along, he was trying to recreate that "magic". But for some reason, it was much more difficult, huh? Think about it, Smith supposedly banged out the Book of Mormon in a couple of months, but took years to get the Book of Abraham (what little we have) "translated"?

I find that very odd, myself. I mean, he had multiple willing scribes and lots of time to do it.


Smith was a busy man leading a large community of believers. He was married and even had a harem of women (including 14 year old girls) in which to please. It's hard to stay on top of things when you're on top of other men's wives.

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:56 pm 
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grindael wrote:
I'm positive that others knew about it, like George A. Smith (the historian). They poured over all those documents when writing Joseph Smith's history.

Fielding Smith was Assistant Church Historian in 1906. He could have stumbled upon it between then and the early 30's, (one of the pages was torn and fixed), and then sometime after he became Church Historian in 1921 he hid up the letterbook. Others may have learned of it, so he tore out the pages. All speculation, I know.


I can imagine those historians roughly handling old documents without white gloves but tearing pages out from the very binding of a book's spine seems disrespectful having little regard to the integrity of the original document as a whole. How could any historian do such a thing without questioning the wishes of what the original penman would have thought of such an action? It seems an affront to the concept of preservation. It's more than just total disregard to preserving the integrity of an original document -- it was utter vandalism!

Not only was Joseph Fielding Smith a horrible historian and a crooked thief -- he was a vandal.

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:46 pm 
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grindael wrote:


Orson Hyde, A Call from the Desert, Frankfurt 1842

"On one occasion, he went to a small grove near his father's flat and kneeled down to solemn prayers before God. . . . Two glorious, heavenly persons stood before him, who were very similar in face and form. These instructed him that his prayers were answered, and that the Lord had resolved to favor him with special favor."

Here it appears that the 1838 version of the First Vision was taught to the Germans.

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