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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:41 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:33 am 
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grindael wrote:
What's interesting is that Orson Hyde produced a pamphlet in German (in 1842) with an account of the claimed First Vision.

But since the beginning these "apostles" knew the story that Joseph was telling from the beginning, that when he FIRST prayed, he was answered by an ANGEL, who told him what to do. This was the story that was told by Joseph and retold by those early missionaries like Orson Hyde.

In his 1842 Pamphlet, Hyde also stated that Joseph was beaten and assaulted by numerous people BEFORE he left Palmyra. These embellishments were common with them, and shows that they had no problem making things up to bolster Smith's credibility. Of course, they then would know that Smith was doing the same thing.


I'd love to read the German if you have a link to it.


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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:00 am 
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Meadowchik wrote:
I'd love to read the German if you have a link to it.


Ask and ye shall receive... :cool:

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... -extract/3

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:10 am 
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Prior to the vision Joseph Smith said:

Joseph Smith 1832 wrote:
they had apostatised from the true and liveing faith and there was no society or denomination that built upon the gospel of Jesus Christ


Joseph Smith 1838 wrote:
My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join.


Clearly Joseph had forgotten what he had previously written (fabricated) and changed his story to better suit the times at hand. Thus we see a liar caught in his own words while telling stories.

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:22 am 
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Joseph Smith's 1832 fabricated account of the first vision doesn't include God the Father. Basically, Smith claimed to see the pillar of light and lo and behold Jesus himself came down and started conversing with him. No introduction from the Father -- nothing about TWO personages. Just a single person and a huge clue can be ascertained from Smith's narrative that he only saw one personage, not two.

Do you want to know what that clue is?

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:21 pm 
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I look forward to listening to these podcast as well, Grindael!

One thing I have noticed, and I am certain it has been observed before, is that the question Joseph Smith asks in the 1832 account (regarding his standing before God due to his sins) gets shifted to the Moroni account by 1838.

In other words, the 1832 account has Joseph crying unto God for mercy and Jesus appears.

In the 1838 account, this question to God has been supplanted by "which church is true" and the question regarding his spiritual standing forms the framework for the story about Moroni's first appearance.

Is this significant, do you think?

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:22 pm 
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Sure Shulem, let us know!

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:30 pm 
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Consig,

Yes. Because Joseph was telling the story (before 1832) that he had read the Bible found all of the churches to be corrupt. He then went to inquire if God did exist and what his standing was with him, and the angel appeared and told him his sins were forgiven. Joseph in 1832 wrote how he had been studying the Bible from age 12 on, and that he had come to the conclusion that all the churches were corrupt, but in that account he claims that he believed that God did exist from reading the Bible. But he still could not make it all fit into a coherent timeline and abandoned that attempt (plus he only believed in one god at that time). He then later, had to take elements of the original story of the angel and move them back in time. He could not continue to claim he was inspired by George Lane, because it didn't fit. So that was abandoned completely. Joseph leaves a clue in the 1832 version, he starts to mention that at the time he had this vision of Jesus, his mother and... this is crossed out, but he was going to write about his mother and other family member's conversion to Presbyterianism, but again, that would date the account to 1824/25. There are so many things that show he was making up the earlier vision.

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:43 pm 
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grindael wrote:
Sure Shulem, let us know!


I thought you'd never ask. :wink:

Joseph Smith wrote:
I was filled with the spirit of god and the <Lord> opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord

Smith claimed the Lord (Jesus) opened the heavens and made his appearance. No Fatherly introduction and no illusion to Jesus standing on the right hand of God is given. Jesus was ALONE with Joseph Smith and even called him "son", and declared himself in the first person:

"he spake unto me saying . . . . behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world".

Then, Jesus goes on to tell Joseph how he's angry and will come in a cloud as prophesied in scripture. But something Jesus says makes it clear that Jesus and Joseph are indeed alone during this conversation and that the so-called first member of the Godhead (God the Father) is nowhere present. Jesus brags how he will come again "in the glory of my Father" when he rides upon the cloud to judge the earth. Here we see that Joseph Smith claimed to converse with a single personage (Jesus) and that when Jesus comes again he will be in the glory of his Father. Thus, Jesus is talking about his Father in a distant sense, one who is apart from the very scene at hand. We have a Jesus that is full of himself and doesn’t mention his Father at all other than that when he comes again he'll come in his glory. You get the feeling that the next words out of Jesus's mouth could have been, "Behold and lo, I ascend to my Father."

Thus, there was no Father in 1832. That came later when Smith developed his theology.

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:56 pm 
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Of course, Joseph was teaching then that the Son (Jesus) had a body, but the Father did not, that Jesus was the Father incarnate. One trinitarian God.

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:25 pm 
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grindael wrote:
Of course, Joseph was teaching then that the Son (Jesus) had a body, but the Father did not, that Jesus was the Father incarnate. One trinitarian God.


Joseph Fielding Smith must have known this and rather than bring the matter to public discussion he chose to hide it up and lock it away. This is the mentally of Church Presidents. Hide it up -- question not -- pray, pay, and obey.

The Book of Mormon teaches the trinitarian God in every sense. The idea of the Father being a separate Being with a body of flesh and bone was a doctrine that Smith later made up. Book of Mormon prophets must be rolling in their graves considering what Smith did to their God.

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:38 pm 
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Where is rosebud?



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:41 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:08 pm 
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grindael wrote:
JOSEPH SMITH’S FIRST VISION, AND HOW THE CHURCH AND ITS APOLOGISTS MISLEAD...

https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/j ... st-vision/

I'm the old guy... :smile:

The Video (live) is here on the Mormon Stories Facebook Page...

https://www.Facebook.com/groups/Mormons ... %20MISLEAD


I'm only partially through this podcast but thought that each of you did a great job of exposing Peterson’s gas lighting. In my opinion, Peterson's Deseret News article was reprehensible and full of lies, Jedi mind tricks, packed with obfuscation and finger pointing and frankly felt very culty. He’s an embarrassment to Mormonism and while I’m certain that he is not, he should be ashamed of himself.
I also thought that Consigliore did a great job of skewering Peterson in his podcast on this same subject.

PS: Anyone interested in reading more information regarding Smith evolving views on deity which coincidentally correspond with his evolving First Visions myth stories might enjoy reading this. https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4XVnsg ... edit?pli=1

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:31 pm 
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grindael wrote:
Meadowchik wrote:
I'd love to read the German if you have a link to it.


Ask and ye shall receive... :cool:

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... -extract/3


Thank you!

So what are we looking at with known second-hand accounts of apostles in the 30s and 40s? Are there many more like this?

Also was it normal to call it a person's fifteenth year after their fourteenth birthday?


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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:35 pm 
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Bruce R. McConkie April 1976 wrote:
In the spring of 1820 the Supreme Rulers of the universe rent the veil of darkness which for long ages had shrouded the earth. Choosing the time and the place and the person, they came down from their celestial home to a grove of trees near Palmyra, New York. Calling young Joseph by name, they then told him that pure and perfect religion was no longer found among men and that he would be the instrument in their hands of restoring the fulness of their everlasting gospel.


Where in the 1832 account does Smith claim the Supreme RULERS came down and appeared to the boy prophet? There is absolutely no mention or telling of this idea in the first account which was the one that was most fresh in Smith's mind.

So tell me, McConkie, you apostolic liar, where was the Father? Was he hiding behind a tree?

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:49 pm 
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Boyd K. Packer October 1985 wrote:
Inevitably (and properly) the “true church” doctrine emerges very early in any serious discussion of the gospel, for there is no better place to start such a discussion than with the First Vision. And there, in that very first conversation with man in this dispensation, the Lord presented it in unmistakable clarity.


The First Account of the First Vision was given in 1832. The conversation that took place was between Smith and Jesus. The Father wasn't there. The Father wasn't even mentioned other than in Jesus's promise that he would come back someday in his Father's glory to take vengeance.

How do you account for that, Packer? When Smith wrote this TESTIMONY in 1832 it was fresh on his mind. But we see that Heavenly Father with a body of flesh and bones wasn't on his mind AT ALL.

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:59 pm 
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Bruce R. McConkie April 1978 wrote:
The great God with the Lord Jesus at his right hand came down from heaven; stood personally in a grove of trees in western New York; called young Joseph by name; commanded him to join none of the churches of the day


You do realize, Mr. McConkie, that you could not have made such a claim until after Smith amended his testimony in 1838. Based on the ORIGINAL and FIRST testimony there is no mention of a Father coming down and swinging about the trees with Jesus. Smith said nothing about a Father coming down. Smith said nothing about TWO PERSONAGES. He made that up years later.

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:40 pm 
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Joseph Fielding Smith - Improvement Era, Feb. 1960 wrote:
It is well-known that the truth or falsity of a story lies mainly in the details. There are some details connected with the vision given to Joseph Smith the Prophet that may appear to many as insignificant and by many members of the Church are overlooked, yet they are of vital and of overwhelming importance.


How about the details of the FIRST ACCOUNT (1832) of the First Vision? What do those DETAILS reveal, sir? Would you mind getting up at the pulpit in General Conference and telling the saints about the 1832 testimony of the First Vision?

Joseph Fielding Smith - Improvement Era, Feb. 1960 wrote:
Without any question to the contrary, it must be assumed that Joseph Smith, when he went to pray, had an idea that somewhere the divine truth was to be found.


Really? But didn't Joseph write: "they had apostatised from the true and liveing faith and there was no society or denomination that built upon the gospel of Jesus Christ"?

Tell us about the 1832 account you locked up all these years.

Joseph Fielding Smith - Improvement Era, Feb. 1960 wrote:
If he had cunningly thought out a plan, he surely would not have dared to face the religious world with such a story as that he had received a visitation from both the Father and the Son. From all the teachings he had received, that was evidently the furthest thought from his mind. It was too revolutionary and conflicted universally with all of the religious creeds—Catholic and Protestant—in the world. He might have said that the Son of God had appeared to him, but this is something very remote, considering the universal belief.


His 1832 testimony says nothing about having a vision of both the Father and the Son. Just Jesus. It was the furthest thing from Smith's mind. Not until later did Smith concoct that idea and told a new tale in 1838. Of course, Mr. Smith, you know about this, don't you?

You, Joseph Fielding Smith, walk in crooked paths and deceive your people just like Joe did. You're cut from the same Smith cloth.

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:49 pm 
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Yeah, it was normal to call it the 15th year. But in the 1832 account Joseph says that from ages 12 to 15, he "contemplated" many things, and then in the "16th year of his age" he went to pray. This is just way off. Then a year later, he sees an angel? Uh-uh, that doesn't work. Scrap this account. But in a few years, he gets it down with his account to Robert Matthews...

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:56 pm 
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Joseph Fielding Smith - Improvement Era, Feb. 1960 wrote:
What was the Prophet’s report made to the minister with whom he was friendly? Here it is in his own words:

“I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!”


Wrong! You're lying Joseph Fielding Smith and you know it. You know full well that the 1832 account written in Joseph Smith's own hand says absolutely nothing about Smith seeing two Personages. The Methodist minister in whom Smith claimed to have seen a vision heard nothing about two Persons. The idea of two Persons wasn't declared until 1838, some 18 years later.

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