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 Post subject: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:36 pm 
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JOSEPH SMITH’S FIRST VISION, AND HOW THE CHURCH AND ITS APOLOGISTS MISLEAD...

https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/j ... st-vision/

I'm the old guy... :smile:

The Video (live) is here on the Mormon Stories Facebook Page...

https://www.Facebook.com/groups/Mormons ... %20MISLEAD

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:07 pm 
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Looking forward to listening to this...

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:18 pm 
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Excellent podcast. Grindael kicked ass. :biggrin:

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:46 pm 
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Awesome.

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:40 pm 
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I look forward to listening to this tomorrow!


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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:26 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
I look forward to listening to this tomorrow!


Me too.


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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:25 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:24 am 
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Grindael, was that history stuff locked up by Joseph F. Smith known to B.H. Roberts?

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:45 am 
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Various quotes describing the First Vision:

BRIGHAM YOUNG: "....that the Lord sent forth His angel to reveal the truths of heaven as in times past, even in ancient days. This should have been hailed as the greatest blessing which could have been bestowed upon any nation, kindred, tongue, or people. It should have been received with hearts of gratitude and gladness, praise and thanksgiving.
But as it was in the days of our Savior, so it was in the advent of this new dispensation. It was not in accordance with the notions, traditions, and preconceived ideas of the American people. The messenger did not come to the eminent divine of any of the so-called orthodoxy, he did not adopt their interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. The Lord did not come with the armies of heaven, in power and great glory, nor send His messengers panoplied with aught else than the truth of heaven, to communicate to the meek, the lowly, the youth of humble origin, the sincere inquirer after the knowledge of God. But He did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong; that they were following the precepts of men instead of the Lord Jesus; that He had a work for him to perform, inasmuch as he should prove faithful before him.
No sooner was this made known, and published abroad, and people began to listen and obey the heavenly summons, than opposition began to rage..." Brigham Young Journal of Discourses Volume 2, Page 171, 1855.



WILFORD WOODRUFF: "The Gospel has gone forth in our day in its true glory, power, order, and light, as it always did when God had a people among men that He acknowledged. That same organisation and Gospel that Christ died for, and the apostles spilled their blood to vindicate, is again established in this generation. How did it come? By the ministering of an holy angel from God, out of heaven, who held converse with man, and revealed unto him the darkness that enveloped the world, and unfolded unto him the gross darkness that surrounded the nations, those scenes that should take place in this generation, and would follow each other in quick succession, even unto the coming of the Messiah. The angel taught Joseph Smith those principles which are necessary for the salvation of the world ; and the Lord gave him commandments, and sealed upon him the Priesthood, and gave him power to administer the ordinances of the house of the Lord. He told him the Gospel was not among men, and that there was not a true organisation of his kingdom in the world, that the people had turned away from His true order, changed the ordinances, and broken the everlasting covenant, and inherited lies and things wherein there was no profit. He told him the time had come to lay the foundation for the establishment of the Kingdom of God among men at the last time, preparatory to the winding up scene. Joseph was strengthened by the Spirit and power of God, and was enabled to listen to the teachings of an angel..." Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Discourses Volume 2, Page 196, 1855.



HEBER C. KIMBALL: "Do you suppose that God in person called upon Joseph Smith, our Prophet? God called upon him; but God did not come himself and call, but he sent Peter to do it. Do you not see? He sent Peter and sent Moroni to Joseph, and told him that he had got the plates. Did God come himself? No: he sent Moroni and told him there was a record... Well, when this took place, Peter came along to him and gave power and authority, and, says he, "You go and baptise Olivery Cowdery, and then ordain him a Priest." He did it, and do you not see his works were in exercise? Then Oliver, having authority, baptised Joseph and ordained him a Priest. Do you not see the works, how they manifest themselves?
Well, then Peter comes along. Why did God not come? He sent Peter, do you not see? Why did he not come along? Because he has agents to attend to his business, and he sits upon his throne and is established at head-quarters, and tells this man, "Go and do this;" and it is behind the veil just as it is here. You have got to learn that." Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Volume 6, Page 29, 1857.


ORSON HYDE: "Some one may say, "If this work of the last days be true, why did not the Saviour come himself to communicate this intelligence to the world?" Because to the angels was committed the power of reaping the earth, and it was committed to none else." Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Volume 6, Page 335, 1854.


JOHN TAYLOR: "How did this state of things called Mormonism originate? We read that an angel came down and revealed himself to Joseph Smith and manifested unto him in vision the true position of the world in a religious point of view. He was surrounded with light and glory while the heavenly messenger communicated these things unto him, after a series of visitations and communications from the Apostle Peter and others..." John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, Volume 10, Page 127, 1863.


GEORGE ALBERT SMITH: "Joseph Smith had attended these meetings, and when this result was reached he saw clearly that something was wrong. He had read the Bible and had found that passage in James which says, "If any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God that giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not," and taking this literally, he went humbly before the Lord and inquired of Him, and the Lord answered his prayer, and revealed to Joseph, by the ministration of angels, the true condition of the religious world. When the holy angel appeared, Joseph inquired which of all these denominations was right and which he should join, and was told they were all wrong..." George A. Smith, Journal of Discourses, Volume 12, Page 334, 1863.


OLIVER COWDERY: "You will recollect that I mentioned the time of a religious excitement, in Palmyra and vicinity to have been in the 15th year of our Brother J. Smith Jr's, age that was an error in the type--it should have been in the 17th.--You will please remember this correction, as it will be necessary for the full understanding of what will follow in time. This would bring the date down to year 1823." Oliver Cowdery, Times & Seasons, Volume 2, Page 241, 1840.


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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:50 am 
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As would be expected of a fabrication, the prominence of the First Vision expanded over time, not just eith the differing accounts attributed to Joseph Smith, but also in the treatment given it by the church. Compare this to Gordon B. Hinckley's all-or-nothing statement:

"The correlated gospel of the modern LDS Church gives prominent place to the First Vision in the story of the Restoration. Interestingly, that was not the story of the Restoration told in Joseph’s day. Indeed, clear through the 19th century the First Vision was not a central part in how the Restoration was recounted. As LDS historian James Allen put it, “the weight of evidence would suggest that it [the First Vision] was not a matter of common knowledge, even among church members, in the earliest years of Mormon History.” [5] Kathleen Flake recounts the emergence of the familiar “Joseph Smith story,” starting with the First Vision, during the first decades of the 20th century. She describes it as “not only a source of doctrine but as the modern L.D.S. Church’s master narrative.” [6]
http://www.timesandseasons.org/harchive ... st-vision/


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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:56 am 
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Furthermore, Dan casually pleads that differing stories are event-affirming, yet he fails to point out that the church excluded all but one account in its canon. And the included version was chosen instead of the earliest and the only one in Joseph Smith's own hand.


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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:35 am 
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I don't think B.H. Roberts would have known about it, especially since he and Fielding Smith didn't get along as I recall...

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:10 am 
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I enjoyed all three presentations.

I can certainly see why Joseph Fielding Smith hid up the 1832 account of the first vision because it casts doubt on the credibility of the 1838 version. The 1832 account was not faith promoting. It's clear that Joseph Smith moved with the times and altered his story to suit his needs and changing theology. Joseph Fielding Smith must have known this.

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:11 am 
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grindael wrote:
I don't think B.H. Roberts would have known about it, especially since he and Fielding Smith didn't get along as I recall...


BH died long before the incident of Fielding Smith removing the journal pages, didn’t he?

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:08 am 
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Last night I drove up to my father-in-law's to toss a few thousand pounds of hay around. While driving I listened intently to this episode as the first vision stories have been a little on my mind as of late (thanks in part to Peterson). I got about half way through. I want say this is a very good episode. I'm often turned off by John's style but if he did more of this I'd listen more. Having Sandra there was awesome, being a living first hand witness of the coverup. I honestly wish she had more focus on that part and shared it more explicitly. The lie that the 1970 piece somehow absolves the church of a coverup is just plain stupid. Johnny your contributions were very good, i'm eager to listen further.

Anyway, thanks for getting on this episode and linking it.


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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:18 am 
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Grudunza wrote:

BH died long before the incident of Fielding Smith removing the journal pages, didn’t he?


I think that's the story. BH died in 1833

The tear out was guestimated to be in the mid-1900s:

Quote:
Manuscript evidence suggests that these excisions took place in the mid-twentieth century. A tear on the third leaf, which evidently occurred during its excision, was probably mended at the time. This tear was mended with clear cellophane tape, which was invented in 1930. The three leaves of the history certainly had been removed by 1965, when they were described as “cut out,” although they were archived together with the letterbook.


http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... ource-note
(see source notes)

It's possible it was torn out in BH's liftetime, though. It does seem like Joseph Fielding didn't like BH and wouldn't have given him notice of it if Joseph Fielding Smith was aware of the account back then. But I"m guessing someone knew about it back that far. Just don't knkow that it was Joseph Fielding Smith.


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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:32 am 
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Quote:
It does seem like Joseph Fielding didn't like BH and wouldn't have given him notice of it if Joseph Fielding Smith was aware of the account back then.


This.

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:37 am 
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I'm positive that others knew about it, like George A. Smith (the historian). They poured over all those documents when writing Joseph Smith's history.

Fielding Smith was Assistant Church Historian in 1906. He could have stumbled upon it between then and the early 30's, (one of the pages was torn and fixed), and then sometime after he became Church Historian in 1921 he hid up the letterbook. Others may have learned of it, so he tore out the pages. All speculation, I know.

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:47 am 
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What's interesting is that Orson Hyde produced a pamphlet in German (in 1842) with an account of the claimed First Vision.

But since the beginning these "apostles" knew the story that Joseph was telling from the beginning, that when he FIRST prayed, he was answered by an ANGEL, who told him what to do. This was the story that was told by Joseph and retold by those early missionaries like Orson Hyde.

In his 1842 Pamphlet, Hyde also stated that Joseph was beaten and assaulted by numerous people BEFORE he left Palmyra. These embellishments were common with them, and shows that they had no problem making things up to bolster Smith's credibility. Of course, they then would know that Smith was doing the same thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:01 am 
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Having listened to two of the three, I just want to congratulate grindael on a fine job!


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 Post subject: Re: Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, grindael Podcast
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:26 am 
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