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 Post subject: Re: Daniel C. Peterson to Debate Michael Shermer on Faith
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:19 pm 
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Themis wrote:
As far as a lack of evidence I would agree, but the LDS God has quite a bit against it's existence. LDS God is very dependent on Joseph's claims being true and we know of no good evidence in favor of the LDS God, but lots against like the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham.

The Christian God has the same thing against it, the scripture. They are both in the exact same situation. At least so far as I can tell.

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 Post subject: Re: Daniel C. Peterson to Debate Michael Shermer on Faith
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:50 pm 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
The Christian God has the same thing against it, the scripture. They are both in the exact same situation. At least so far as I can tell.


Not really. We don't have any original documents about it's many claims. The difference is Biblical claims lack evidence, while Joseph's claims we have the originals and plenty of evidence he was making it up. Can't say the same for those who wrote the books of the bible.

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 Post subject: Re: Daniel C. Peterson to Debate Michael Shermer on Faith
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:31 pm 
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With a nod to Tillich, God is the ground of being and our ultimate concern. God could have thousands of names , Zeus, Allah, El,Athena, etc but to have none of it would be a sad state.

It is true there is no twelve foot super guy on Mt Olympus but that may be missing the point.


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 Post subject: Re: Daniel C. Peterson to Debate Michael Shermer on Faith
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:45 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:
With a nod to Tillich, God is the ground of being and our ultimate concern. God could have thousands of names , Zeus, Allah, El,Athena, etc but to have none of it would be a sad state.

It is true there is no twelve foot super guy on Mt Olympus but that may be missing the point.


Sure lets redefine God to something even more vague. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Daniel C. Peterson to Debate Michael Shermer on Faith
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:10 pm 
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Themis wrote:
huckelberry wrote:
With a nod to Tillich, God is the ground of being and our ultimate concern. God could have thousands of names , Zeus, Allah, El,Athena, etc but to have none of it would be a sad state.

It is true there is no twelve foot super guy on Mt Olympus but that may be missing the point.


Sure lets redefine God to something even more vague. :wink:


I thought it was less vague and and closer to the original. I think it is a tool to separate from poor pictures of god like visitors from a different solar system who are smarter than us.


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 Post subject: Re: Daniel C. Peterson to Debate Michael Shermer on Faith
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:18 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:
I thought it was less vague and and closer to the original. I think it is a tool to separate from poor pictures of god like visitors from a different solar system who are smarter than us.


Not sure how it is less vague, but God like visitors from a different solar system would be less vague.

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 Post subject: Re: Daniel C. Peterson to Debate Michael Shermer on Faith
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:28 pm 
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Themis wrote:
huckelberry wrote:
I thought it was less vague and and closer to the original. I think it is a tool to separate from poor pictures of god like visitors from a different solar system who are smarter than us.


Not sure how it is less vague, but God like visitors from a different solar system would be less vague.


Visitors would be interesting. Why would one consider them God? Unless they were malignant they would decline the title. They would tell us to learn to stand on our own feet.


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 Post subject: Re: Daniel C. Peterson to Debate Michael Shermer on Faith
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:09 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:
Visitors would be interesting. Why would one consider them God?


Our ancestors would see them as Gods.

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Unless they were malignant they would decline the title. They would tell us to learn to stand on our own feet.


Unless they are like Donald Trump. :eek:

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 Post subject: Re: Daniel C. Peterson to Debate Michael Shermer on Faith
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:27 pm 
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Themis wrote:
The Christian God does better only because the LDS God Joseph created has so much evidence against. The Christian God has less evidence against due to most claims and events happening thousands of years ago and they define God a little more vaguely.

For Christians the Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Ghost is God, and yet you only have one God. The Christian theology of God is a contradiction.


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 Post subject: Re: Daniel C. Peterson to Debate Michael Shermer on Faith
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:42 pm 
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DoubtingThomas wrote:
For Christians the Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Ghost is God, and yet you only have one God. The Christian theology of God is a contradiction.

What, you never heard of multiple personalities. Can God not have the same problem? :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Daniel C. Peterson to Debate Michael Shermer on Faith
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:52 pm 
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Themis wrote:
What, you never heard of multiple personalities. Can God not have the same problem? :twisted:

You minded me of the movie Split.


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 Post subject: Re: Daniel C. Peterson to Debate Michael Shermer on Faith
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:12 am 
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Themis wrote:
huckelberry wrote:
Visitors would be interesting. Why would one consider them God?

Our ancestors would see them as Gods.

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Unless they were malignant they would decline the title. They would tell us to learn to stand on our own feet.

Unless they are like Donald Trump. :eek:

Themis. I am unsure how our ancestors would think of space visitors. I suspect our ancestors would be confused and perhaps would be considering how close at hand their swords were.

Gods have had enough connection to magic in the past that seeing space visitors as divine might be a theory our ancestors would consider. I note that would only be possible if they had preexisting ideas about what is divine and thus could wonder if these space strangers fit. I feel sure peoples idea of the divine did not start from space people. The definition I suggested takes aim at the essence of that idea people have. It could have different accidents so people could wonder if a strange new powerful creature was divine. They might decide they were not over time.

Which returns to that idea of possibly malignant like Trump. Peoples attraction to him is outside of my understanding, I hope it does not include suspicions of divinity.


Last edited by huckelberry on Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Daniel C. Peterson to Debate Michael Shermer on Faith
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:23 am 
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DoubtingThomas wrote:
For Christians the Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Ghost is God, and yet you only have one God. The Christian theology of God is a contradiction.

Thomas, if you think of God as instructed by Joseph Smith, an exalted hominoid individual then the Trinity is contradictory. If you think of it like traditional trinitarian thinking it is not. God is infinite and source of everything and thus must be single. Multiple persons does not require multiple substance.

Of course for people multiple persons involves multiple substances.


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 Post subject: Re: Daniel C. Peterson to Debate Michael Shermer on Faith
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:25 am 
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huckelberry wrote:
Gods have had enough connection to magic in the past that seeing space visitors as divine might be a theory our ancestors would consider. I note that would only be possible if they had preexisting ideas about what is divine and thus could wonder if these space strangers fit.

I think they created ideas of divine many tens of thousands of years ago.

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I feel sure peoples idea of the divine did not start from space people.

I see no good evidence space people have been here in the past.

Quote:
The definition I suggested takes aim at the essence of that idea people have. It could have different accidents so people could wonder if a strange new powerful creature was divine. They might decide they were not over time.

People have created Gods/divine from rumblings in the mountain or in the sky. They have created Gods/divine with the sun and even made up rituals to bring back the sun every year in December. They have created the divine in many animals and plants important to them. I find it a little funny millions see Cows as divine. Not sure how they can given they have spent a lot of time with them.

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Which returns to that idea of possibly malignant like Trump. Peoples attraction to him is outside of my understanding, I hope it does not include suspicions of divinity.

Interesting he is about to sit down with a man many believe is divine. :eek: What's interesting is he was not the first human to create beliefs they are divine to their subjects.

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 Post subject: Re: Daniel C. Peterson to Debate Michael Shermer on Faith
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:26 am 
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huckelberry wrote:
Multiple persons does not require multiple substance.


See DoubtingThomas, multiple personalities.

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 Post subject: Re: Daniel C. Peterson to Debate Michael Shermer on Faith
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:47 pm 
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Themis wrote:
huckelberry wrote:
Multiple persons does not require multiple substance.


See DoubtingThomas, multiple personalities.


That is sabellianism. Sabellianism theology teaches that God has some schizophrenia personality disorder.


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 Post subject: Re: Daniel C. Peterson to Debate Michael Shermer on Faith
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:48 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:
Thomas, if you think of God as instructed by Joseph Smith, an exalted hominoid individual then the Trinity is contradictory. If you think of it like traditional trinitarian thinking it is not. God is infinite and source of everything and thus must be single. Multiple persons does not require multiple substance.

Of course for people multiple persons involves multiple substances.


Yea, but it seems to contradict the laws of logic.


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 Post subject: Re: Daniel C. Peterson to Debate Michael Shermer on Faith
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:36 pm 
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DoubtingThomas wrote:
huckelberry wrote:
Thomas, if you think of God as instructed by Joseph Smith, an exalted hominoid individual then the Trinity is contradictory. If you think of it like traditional trinitarian thinking it is not. God is infinite and source of everything and thus must be single. Multiple persons does not require multiple substance.

Of course for people multiple persons involves multiple substances.


Yea, but it seems to contradict the laws of logic.


What law of logic are you thinking of here?
,,,,,

I can add this sounds like an arithmetic problem. How can one person have one head two eyes ten fingers? How can you have one flag and three colors? these common illustrations do not explain the trinity itself but they do illustrate the arithmetic involved.


Last edited by huckelberry on Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Daniel C. Peterson to Debate Michael Shermer on Faith
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:48 pm 
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Themis wrote:
I think they created ideas of divine many tens of thousands of years ago.

I see no good evidence space people have been here in the past.

People have created Gods/divine from rumblings in the mountain or in the sky. They have created Gods/divine with the sun and even made up rituals to bring back the sun every year in December. They have created the divine in many animals and plants important to them. I find it a little funny millions see Cows as divine. Not sure how they can given they have spent a lot of time with them.

Themis, As you observe, the idea of Gods started a long long long time before the first written records so it remains speculation as to what people were first thinking and why. As you observe there is no evidence of prior space visitations so people must have been thinking about something else.

Perhaps they liked cows.

As you observe people have connected bulls, mountains, sun, moon, powerful eternal people on mt Olympus etc, to the word god. That is such a variety it might make one wonder what that word is supposed to mean.


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 Post subject: Re: Daniel C. Peterson to Debate Michael Shermer on Faith
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:40 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:
As you observe people have connected bulls, mountains, sun, moon, powerful eternal people on mt Olympus etc, to the word god. That is such a variety it might make one wonder what that word is supposed to mean.


I would say God is being used in this way very vaguely. I'm not sure people living tens of thousands of years ago had precise ideas of this is God, divine, supernatural, and this is not. I would suggest they were just trying to understand their world and guessing or making things up was just fine. It would explain why we have so many Gods or supernatural entities and stories.

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 Post subject: Re: Daniel C. Peterson to Debate Michael Shermer on Faith
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am 
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Themis wrote:
Sure lets redefine God to something even more vague. :wink:


We're pretty vague about quantum gravity, and if there's a God then God made quantum gravity. Jumped-up apes who have to think with little lumps of grey meat kind of have to be vague about God.


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