The Arm of Flesh

[_Fence Sitter]

I would love to ask a leader who gave such a talk if he remembers what happened to a group individuals in heaven who faithfully followed a wrong leader?

[_Shulem]

The top leadership of the LDS church is a despicable lot of brainwashed men that will say and do anything to maintain cult power over their membership. These men are living in a fantasy and dreamland. The LDS apostles are some of the worst kind of men that exist because they live to lie and wield unconditional power over others for the sake of their religious faith. Their leadership mode is to maintain control at all cost. They await the day of the Lord when he will come again and burn the earth and destroy the wicked including the apostates of this message board. All of us have a death sentence over our heads as far as the apostles of Mormonism are concerned. This is what we are dealing with. This is the mindset of those men who are nothing but liars and pretend to have powers which they do not have. The day will come when they are broken. All kingdoms eventually fall -- including Mormonism.

[_Kishkumen]

If it's really something that God has done, then it's something that would also have happened if there were no God: a tornado, a twist in a chromosome, something beyond human power.

If there is a God worth serving, there will be some reason for the pain that will in hindsight be sufficient and i f the pain destroyed faith then a genuine God will forgive and also ask for forgiveness. If there is no such God, there is no-one to blame anyway. So either way there is no point in summoning God to judgement.

Bad human customs, however, can be changed by human action. Écrasez l'infame.

Excellent points, Physics Guy.

[_Gadianton]

Yeah and there's a slippery slope once you accept to obey no matter what. Since it requires greater faith, then it's actually better that our leaders f-up so that we can show our greater submission. And also, maybe we can believe we'll be blessed later, but isn't that selfish? I think that it's best that the Bishop just goes way off track and ruins our lives, at least to the point where it drives out any hope of blessings in heaven making up for it. Then we can truly submit to whatever the Bishop says in pure humility. The reward in itself is exalting a servant of the Lord.

So imagine a Bishop ruining you, and then imagine him totally getting away with it and receiving a crown of glory for it in the next life. When you can imagine praising that Bishop henceforth and forever, then you've begun to understand what faith is and what it means to have everlasting joy as a Mormon.

[_Kishkumen]

Yeah and there's a slippery slope once you accept to obey no matter what. Since it requires greater faith, then it's actually better that our leaders f-up so that we can show our greater submission. And also, maybe we can believe we'll be blessed later, but isn't that selfish? I think that it's best that the Bishop just goes way off track and ruins our lives, at least to the point where it drives out any hope of blessings in heaven making up for it. Then we can truly submit to whatever the Bishop says in pure humility. The reward in itself is exalting a servant of the Lord.

So imagine a Bishop ruining you, and then imagine him totally getting away with it and receiving a crown of glory for it in the next life. When you can imagine praising that Bishop henceforth and forever, then you've begun to understand what faith is and what it means to have everlasting joy as a Mormon.

Consider the first two prophets of Mormonism. The first connived to commit and committed adultery with his followers' wives. The second made himself the richest man in the American West on the backs of the saints. United Order my ass.

And yet these are the men who, above all others, are revered most in the LDS Church. Brother Joseph and Brother Brigham. Oh brother!

But revere them the saints must. They are gods. They have achieved their exaltation. Having defrauded, stolen from, and debased their followers, these two men will sit in judgment over them at the gates of the Celestial Kingdom.

The whole idea is an utter travesty!

[_Shulem]

Consider the first two prophets of Mormonism. The first connived to commit and committed adultery with his followers' wives. The second made himself the richest man in the American West on the backs of the saints. United Order my ass.

And yet these are the men who, above all others, are revered most in the LDS Church. Brother Joseph and Brother Brigham. Oh brother!

These cult leaders were grievous and full of deception. Joe was a horny man that lied about everything he ever talked about. He was a pathological liar. Brigham had an enormous appetite for all things, especially power. The man was a despot. To belong to the Utah cult was akin to being a slave and surrendering your own mind and will to the cult.

[_Physics Guy]

Never having been Mormon, I always just kind of assumed that Mormonism must be something more or less reasonable as religions go. A few years ago I got interested in Scientology, but once I had learned a bit about how intelligent people could be taken in by such a ridiculous scam, and it became clear that the cult was dying fast anyway, my interest started to flag. By chance a couple of Mormon-related posts cropped up on an ex-Scientologist message board, and I was prompted to learn a bit more about what I thought would be a refreshingly more genuine religion.

It was a bit of a shocker for me to come to the reluctant conclusion that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were serious slimeballs. The more I learned, the more they seemed to be just the L. Ron Hubbard and David Miscavige of their day, except probably worse. Today the followers who revere them include plenty of very smart and very decent people—and that boggles my mind.

Mormonism has survived for a while now, and it was based on older religious traditions. My current impression is that Mormonism today is a kind of a sandwich: a slice of religion between two slices of cult. Some features of Mormonism are simply variants of normal religious doctrine and practice, but things like the immense demands on members' time, the extreme respect for church leaders, and the intense focus on controlling members' sex lives, look clearly cult-like to me.

And I think that all those cult-like features were slipped in on purpose by Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. Mormonism isn't new wine. It's a drink that was spiked.

[_Morley]

My current impression is that Mormonism today is a kind of a sandwich: a slice of religion between two slices of cult.

[_candygal]

I was BIC and was about 16 when I started having doubts. I remember a Priest's Quorum meeting in which the Second Councillor to the Bishop gave a lesson on the virtue of being close minded. An open mind, he pontificated, was subject to the influence of the Adversary...

The other kids ate it up. I was mortified.

Brain washing at it's very finest!