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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:57 pm 
God

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:04 am
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I have a question wrote:
I think the Church trying to settle “behind closed doors” is suggestive there’s fire with the smoke.

His confessions, the corroboration about the weird little basement room with a bed, the corroboration about his singling her out and removing her from lessons, the other victim, all likewise lend credence to the accusations. As does his resignation from the Church.

There is almost no doubt that Bishop is guilty of sexual harassment, but was he found guilty of rape? Like Larry King said "wait to see how things play out".

esodije wrote:
In my day, the adage was "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

Where is the evidence for the existence of God? Do you apply the same thinking to religion?


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:49 am 
God

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DoubtingThomas wrote:
I have a question wrote:
I think the Church trying to settle “behind closed doors” is suggestive there’s fire with the smoke.

His confessions, the corroboration about the weird little basement room with a bed, the corroboration about his singling her out and removing her from lessons, the other victim, all likewise lend credence to the accusations. As does his resignation from the Church.

There is almost no doubt that Bishop is guilty of sexual harassment, but was he found guilty of rape? Like Larry King said "wait to see how things play out".

There hasn’t been a trial. The Church doesn't want there to be a trial.

Quote:
esodije wrote:
In my day, the adage was "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

Where is the evidence for the existence of God? Do you apply the same thinking to religion?

Given Bishops comments and the various corroboration, the claims aren’t “extraordinary”. But I take your point, were esodije to believe in God or the Book of Mormon then we are getting into one-eyed territory.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:21 pm 
Sunbeam

Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:24 pm
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[img]https://www.dropbox.com/s/ah3ln2v59eiughf/arithmetic.jpg?dl=0[[/img]

"I am an ex-Mo. And an ex-Mo will believe [anything, apparently]!”

We are the Nifong generation.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:14 am 
Sunbeam

Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:24 pm
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It’s possible the church has other information suggesting Bishop was a sexual predator (or harasser) all along. If so, I can see the church trying to settle with Denson, although the usual incentive for settling, nondisclosure, is obviously out the window. However, if the church still believes Bishop is essentially a white hat, and that Denson is delusional, a settlement isn’t happening soon. Do you think Denson’s lawyers want to put her on the witness stand? Really? Forget the past criminal behavior, the false accusations, and the other missionaries who knew her in the MTC—there would probably be dozens of points from her deposition that would impeach her trial testimony. Any decent trial lawyer would reduce her on cross-examination to a raging, profanity-spewing, murder-threatening mess in five minutes.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:48 pm 
God

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esodije wrote:
It’s possible the church has other information suggesting Bishop was a sexual predator (or harasser) all along. If so, I can see the church trying to settle with Denson, although the usual incentive for settling, nondisclosure, is obviously out the window. However, if the church still believes Bishop is essentially a white hat, and that Denson is delusional, a settlement isn’t happening soon.
The Church was actively trying to settle the case ‘behind closed doors’ back in December 2017.

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Do you think Denson’s lawyers want to put her on the witness stand? Really? Forget the past criminal behavior, the false accusations, and the other missionaries who knew her in the MTC—there would probably be dozens of points from her deposition that would impeach her trial testimony. Any decent trial lawyer would reduce her on cross-examination to a raging, profanity-spewing, murder-threatening mess in five minutes.
In what way does her raging, profanity-spewing and murder threatening justify Bishops sexual abuse of her?

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:58 pm 
Sunbeam

Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:24 pm
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Quote:
The Church was actively trying to settle the case ‘behind closed doors’ back in December 2017.

There’s a huge difference between receiving an extortion letter from a lawyer and “actively trying to settle” a case. The only thing I know with some certainty is that the church refused the initial amount demanded, not that there was even a counteroffer on the table when the recording was leaked.

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In what way does her raging, profanity-spewing and murder threatening justify Bishops sexual abuse of her?

The same way, I guess, that the fact that Crystal Mangum had the DNA of 9-10 men in her “rape kit,” none of which came from any member of the Duke lacrosse team, justified three members of that team’s having raped her. No, wait, you mean nobody believes it happened anymore? Can anyone really be that delusional?


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:58 am 
Sunbeam

Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:24 pm
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This may seem elementary, but just because a piece of evidence is corroborative of someone’s recollections doesn’t necessarily make it probative. There is corroborating evidence for any and all of a thousand conspiracy theories concerning the JFK assassination, but that doesn’t make any of them true. You want probative evidence? First, the postmortem cranial x-rays of JFK show no exit wound in the left rear of his skull, something that necessarily would have resulted from a frontal head shot. Second, Governor John Connally was struck in the back by a tumbling—lengthwise—bullet, something that could not have happened if the bullet had not passed through something before it hit him. What could that something have been if not JFK? Third, Oliver Stone notwithstanding, the sheer weight of eyewitness testimony and forensic evidence leaves no reasonable doubt that Lee Harvey Oswald killed Dallas policeman J.D. Tippit. If you’re a hardcore conspiracy theorist, these bits of information mean squat to you (or you believe they’re somehow doctored or falsified), but a reasonable person sees them as excellent evidence that there was one gunman—Oswald.

What would I regard as probative corroborative evidence of Denson’s accusations against Bishop? A series of accusers from different periods of his professional life. Her MTC companion’s statement that she was told by Bishop to get lost during his “counseling”’ sessions with Denson. Someone’s having noticed the torn clothing or a change in mood or behavior after the attack. The MTC branch president’s statement that he was unaware of any counseling interaction between Bishop and Denson. Character witnesses attesting to Denson’s reliability in recounting past events. More Ron Leavitts who remember Denson’s accusations and attest that her story has remained at least somewhat consistent through the years. It doesn’t mean much to me that one of Denson’s district’s instructors remembers Denson getting called out of class (but not by whom or for what), or that some unnamed ex-MTC employee says he was aware of an office similar to the one described by Denson and had it on hearsay that it had been used as a private sanctuary by the former MTC president (Bishop). People get called out of class in the MTC all the time for all sorts of reasons—and their companions go with them. And how much does the bare existence of the room prove, assuming the unidentified witness is reliable?


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:26 pm 
God
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Esodije, what about the LDS Church never reporting the rape in this recent case?

Do you think apologists should organize an effort to besmirch this victim through a series of lies or should their individual efforts be sufficient?

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/06/24/an-ex-utah-county-deputys-confession-to-mormon-leaders-led-to-his-arrest-for-child-molestation-10-years-later/

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:03 pm 
Sunbeam

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Okay. I think a lot of abuse has happened in the church, and it’s probable that some of it has been covered up to protect certain well-placed individuals. For the sake of full disclosure, I served in the same mission as one of Bishop’s sons, although he and I pretty much despised each other; thus, truth be told, I’d feel more than a bit of schadenfreude if Denson’s story turned out to be true and the old hypocrite (and the church that covered for him) finally got his comeuppance. That said, the MTC backdrop, the sheer improbability of an MTC president’s getting away with repeatedly diddling sister missionaries, and my own experiences dealing with delusional people just won’t allow me to buy into it. The problem with narratives is that they cause people to flog all the wrong cases in a mad effort to prove the overarching idea, and thus they end up doing just the opposite. The motion to dismiss could take 18-24 months to adjudicate fully if there’s an interlocutory appeal; that’s a long time not to get any traction in a lawsuit. Denson could easily cease to be a cause celebre in the interim unless more evidence comes out pre-discovery.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:13 pm 
God
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There is a great deal more evidence that has been uncovered.

By which I primarily mean additional victims of Joseph Bishop.

The problem is not getting to the evidence.

The problem is getting the victims to come forward with the evidence.

Further your affiant sayeth not.

:cool:

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You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:42 am 
God

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consiglieri wrote:
There is a great deal more evidence that has been uncovered.

By which I primarily mean additional victims of Joseph Bishop.

The problem is not getting to the evidence.

The problem is getting the victims to come forward with the evidence.

Further your affiant sayeth not.

:cool:


I would understand why they wouldn’t, but I hope they do so as to prevent the Church from continuing its ongoing cover up of Church Leaders abusing their position of trust. The Catholic Church managed to cover up the sexual abuses by its clergy for a long time. You’d like to think the true Church would have learnt something other than how to improve upon the cover-up process. But, as we keep learning, senior Church Leaders only do the right thing when their actions or inactions are exposed to public scrutiny.

A loud public outcry seems to generate more positive and progressive institutional decisions in the LDS Church than its claimed revelatory process.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:16 pm 
God
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Just finished part two of my interview with McKenna Denson tonight.

She does a great job!

Now I just have to get it edited and submitted to her attorney for approval.

It will be the first interview on Radio Free Mormon.

I am thinking of calling the interview series, "Radio Free Mormon, After Dark."

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You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:13 pm 
Sunbeam

Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:24 pm
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consiglieri wrote:
Just finished part two of my interview with McKenna Denson tonight.

She does a great job!


I hope you asked her “the” question: Where was her MTC companion when Bishop was attacking her with a dead weapon? Even if her only answer is that her companion was hateful and refused to accompany her outside the classroom, it’s an answer.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:17 pm 
God
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esodije wrote:
consiglieri wrote:
Just finished part two of my interview with McKenna Denson tonight.

She does a great job!


I hope you asked her “the” question: Where was her MTC companion when Bishop was attacking her with a dead weapon? Even if her only answer is that her companion was hateful and refused to accompany her outside the classroom, it’s an answer.


Did you serve a mission? Were all your interviews with MPs with your companion? Mine weren’t. In fact, I had an interview with the MTC president that was just me — no companion.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:49 am 
God

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Res Ipsa wrote:
esodije wrote:

I hope you asked her “the” question: Where was her MTC companion when Bishop was attacking her with a dead weapon? Even if her only answer is that her companion was hateful and refused to accompany her outside the classroom, it’s an answer.


Did you serve a mission? Were all your interviews with MPs with your companion? Mine weren’t. In fact, I had an interview with the MTC president that was just me — no companion.


One of her former MTC teachers recalled that she was pulled out of class for the meetings.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:47 am 
Sunbeam

Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:24 pm
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I had one-on-one interviews in the MTC, too, but my companion was always in close proximity and knew precisely where I was at all times (and vice versa). Later, in Chile, my first mission president left me alone for an entire week on two separate occasions due to the difficulty of making illness-related companionship changes on the fly, but the MTC was extremely strict in that regard. (My branch president reamed me out one time for not wanting to go to the mall with my companion on p-day and trying to arrange an unofficial “split” so that I could stay at the MTC and write letters.) None of the stories I’ve read has even mentioned that Denson had a companion in the MTC, much less that they were expected to be with each other 24/7 as a rule.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:46 pm 
God

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There is a hearing this month.
https://fox13now.com/2018/07/01/lds-chu ... e-lawsuit/


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:49 pm 
God

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esodije wrote:
I had one-on-one interviews in the MTC, too, but my companion was always in close proximity and knew precisely where I was at all times (and vice versa). Later, in Chile, my first mission president left me alone for an entire week on two separate occasions due to the difficulty of making illness-related companionship changes on the fly, but the MTC was extremely strict in that regard. (My branch president reamed me out one time for not wanting to go to the mall with my companion on p-day and trying to arrange an unofficial “split” so that I could stay at the MTC and write letters.) None of the stories I’ve read has even mentioned that Denson had a companion in the MTC, much less that they were expected to be with each other 24/7 as a rule.


Hopefully you are applying the same skepticism towards religion.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:54 pm 
God

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.


Last edited by DoubtingThomas on Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:01 pm 
God

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duplicate


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:25 pm 
Sunbeam

Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:24 pm
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DoubtingThomas wrote:
Hopefully you are applying the same skepticism towards religion.


Unfortunately, I find that people don't suck any less when they lose their faith. The things I do have faith in are marriage and family, and I will not turn my back on those.


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