Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!

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_I have a question
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Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!

Post by _I have a question »

Denson claims Bishop is a lifelong sexual predator and that he confessed as much to his ecclesiastical leader in the late 1970s.

In 1984, the statute of limitations for rape in Utah was four years. The suit, however, claims the statute of limitations for fraud has not run out because Denson first learned the church had taken no action against Bishop in December 2017.

The lawsuit claims Denson made 10 reports about Bishop to various LDS leaders over the years without learning if any action had been taken against him.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900 ... -suit.html
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_Shulem
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Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!

Post by _Shulem »

Image


GUILTY AS CHARGED
_Shulem
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Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!

Post by _Shulem »

Mr. Oaks,

I'd like to take a moment to tell you that you're a disgusting man and that you've spent your talent defending lies and sweeping dirt under the rug. You should be ashamed of yourself. You, Mr. Oaks, have hurt this planet by spreading and fostering lies.

The world will be a better place once you're gone.

Shulem
_toon
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Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!

Post by _toon »

So it seems like her claim is that the statue on a civil claim should be tolled because of the church mislead her into believing that it would do something about Bishop and that, had she not been so mislead, she would have filed a timely lawsuit.

But the questions then are how did the church mislead her and how did that fraud damage.

I don't think there's much question that she told the church about Bishop, perhaps 10 times as she claims, but what did the church say to her in response? We know that in one instance, a bishop didn't forward anything to the church because he couldn't believe that Bishop would have done such a thing. But what did he tell her, as not doing anything in itself is not fraud.

Put it this way, if I go to HR and complain that a co-worker, even a supervisor, is sexually harassing me, and they say, "Ok, we'll look into it" but then nothing happens and I never hear anything back, that won't justify extending or tolling the statute of limitations. That I complained 10 times with the same response wouldn't make a difference.

On the other hand, if the response was, "Please don't do anything else. Give us a chance, we'll hire an outside investigator, we'll take care of it and make sure nothing happens again, and we'll even make you whole, but just give us some time." And then nothing happens, they were lying and trying to cover it up, and really trying to buy time for the limitations period to expire, then there may be grounds to extend that period. But it wouldn't be a sure thing, and more importantly, there would be a point at which a reasonable person should be able to conclude that it was bs. In other words, while the statue may be tolled, it wouldn't be for 20 years.

Also, in most cases where a statue of limitations is tolled for fraud, it's not because there was fraud surrounding whether or not remedial measures would be taken, but rather fraud to hide the hide from the victim the actual misconduct or damages. Say, for example, we enter into a contract for personal services. The statute of limitations for breach is four years. I breach in a way that damages you, and not only do I not tell you about the breach, but I also go out of my way to actively hide it. Not only do I lie every time you ask about it, but if someone else brings it up, I threaten to sue them for defamation. (Think Lance Armstrong.) Then, after 5 years, you discover my breach and the fact that, but for my affirmative actions to hide it, you would have discovered it within the limitations period and filed suit. That would like justify tolling the statute.

Here, she was aware of the assault, as she experienced it first hand. So it's not like the church did anything to hide it from her. At most, the church tricked her into not pursuing it civilly or criminally. But for 20+ years? And how was she damaged by the church's actions or inaction? Were her damages worse because Bishop wasn't excommunicated or disciplined? Were they were because he may have gone on to victimize others.

None of this absolves the church from any wrongdoing. I'm sympathetic to her. But she has a real uphill battle and hurdle with her lawsuit.
_esodije
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Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!

Post by _esodije »

So Denson complained about Bishop to ten different LDS authorities over a course of decades, and apparently not one of them believed her or ran the matter up the chain of authority. whether Bishop was questioned about it or not. Either the patriarchy was shielding one of its most depraved members--what everyone seems to want to believe--or all of these ecclesiastical leaders had simply concluded Denson was nucking futs. The latter still could speak very ill of them--perhaps an unbiased bishop, stake president, or GA would have launched an in-depth investigation into Bishop's administration of the MTC. Or it could be that these leaders' conclusions about Denson were entirely reasonable. It's one thing to decry the notion of "shaming" a rape accuser; however, if the lawsuit survives the 12(b)(6) motion to dismiss, Denson's credibility, her grasp on reality, will necessarily become a pivotal issue in the case. And she didn't exist in a bubble in the MTC--she had a companion, a district of other missionaries with whom she attended classes, and a branch president who would have been in the loop concerning any counseling she was receiving. Am I the only one who's interested in what they might have to say?
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Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!

Post by _Kishkumen »

esodije wrote:Am I the only one who's interested in what they might have to say?

Maybe!
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_consiglieri
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Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!

Post by _consiglieri »

I read McKenna's response to the Church's motion to dismiss.

It seems to me that what she is arguing is that:

1. When Joseph Bishop was mission president of Argentina in the 1970's, he confessed his prior sexual predations to Elder Wells, the area authority.

2. After confessing his sexual predations to Elder Wells, the Church was on notice that Bishop was a danger to young women.

3. In spite of this, the Church put Joseph Bishop in charge of hundreds, if not thousands, of young women when they made him MTC president.

4. Joseph Bishop raped McKenna while he was president of the MTC.

5. McKenna did not find out that Joseph Bishop confessed his sins to Elder Wells until December of 2017 when she interviewed him.

6. The statute of limitations was tolled during this time period.

Although other legal theories may fail, I expect the fraud allegation , at a minimum, will survive the church's motion to dismiss.
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_consiglieri
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Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!

Post by _consiglieri »

esodije wrote:So Denson complained about Bishop to ten different LDS authorities over a course of decades, and apparently not one of them believed her or ran the matter up the chain of authority. whether Bishop was questioned about it or not. Either the patriarchy was shielding one of its most depraved members--what everyone seems to want to believe--or all of these ecclesiastical leaders had simply concluded Denson was nucking futs. The latter still could speak very ill of them--perhaps an unbiased bishop, stake president, or GA would have launched an in-depth investigation into Bishop's administration of the MTC. Or it could be that these leaders' conclusions about Denson were entirely reasonable. It's one thing to decry the notion of "shaming" a rape accuser; however, if the lawsuit survives the 12(b)(6) motion to dismiss, Denson's credibility, her grasp on reality, will necessarily become a pivotal issue in the case. And she didn't exist in a bubble in the MTC--she had a companion, a district of other missionaries with whom she attended classes, and a branch president who would have been in the loop concerning any counseling she was receiving. Am I the only one who's interested in what they might have to say?


I am certainly interested in what they might have to say.

We already know that McKenna's Spanish instructor at the MTC remembers her after all these years.

This is in the BYU police reports of their investigation late last year.

They called this Spanish instructor, and she remembers being called out of Spanish class on a number of occasions. (Amazing that this would stick in her mind after so long. The police do not include in their reports what it might have been about McKenna being called out of class that was memorable.)

Also, another pivotal figure is McKenna's bishop in 1987, to whom she reported the abuse by Joseph Bishop at the MTC.

According to McKenna, her bishop, Ron Leavitt, contacted Elder Carlos Asay about the issue and set up an appointment where McKenna met with Elder Asay and reported it to him, as well. Elder Asay said he would investigate and get back to her. But he did not.

According to Ron Leavitt, McKenna came to him around the relevant time period and reported that Joseph Bishop had taken her (and perhaps another sister) down into his office in the basement and showed them some pornography. Joseph Bishop said he thought McKenna was neurotic and he did not believe her claims and took no action.

This was said by Ron Leavitt in his interview with KUTV aired Thursday, March 22, 2018. Strangely, in his interview, he added that he had been contacted at least three times by church leaders in the past week and half about the issue. The reporter did not follow up on what those phone calls were regarding, or why there was a need to contact him "at least three times" over what seems a simple version of events.

This just in--McKenna maintains she met Elder Asay at her ward building on a week night. An independent witness has been located who corroborates that McKenna and Elder Carlos Asay were both at that ward building during the relevant time period.

What are the odds?

And what might this say about Ron Leavitt's credibility?

Not to mention the content of those "at least three" phone calls from church leaders?
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
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Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!

Post by _MsJack »

consiglieri wrote:Although other legal theories may fail, I expect the fraud allegation, at a minimum, will survive the church's motion to dismiss.

Not in Utah it won't.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

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_esodije
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Re: Joseph Bishop was reported to LDS Leaders TEN TIMES!!!

Post by _esodije »

Yeah, so one of Denson’s MTC instructors remembers her; so, I’ll wager, do various missionaries who had even more interactions with her. The curious thing is that none of the allegations even speaks of her MTC companion, yet we know she had one. Have Denson’s lawyers even mentioned the companion, much less tried to account for the latter’s whereabouts when the relevant events were going down? Why, of all the places where Bishop, were he a serial sexual predator, could have operated (WSC, the BAN Mission, BYU), have the only concrete allegations come from the MTC, undoubtedly the most difficult environment among those mentioned for a perv to ply his avocation without being discovered? It’s nice that Denson’s story dovetails so neatly with the narrative that the LDS church is depraved and protects sexual predators, but I’m not convinced the actual facts of this case will bear the weight of that narrative. At some point Denson’s mental-health history will intrude. At some point a long succession of accusers will, a la Bill Cosby or Harvey Weinstein, have to materialize to substantiate the history of his “preversions.”
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