It is currently Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:35 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Being subject to Kings, Rulers, Magistrates v. Civil Disobed
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:51 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:23 pm
Posts: 1277
Location: off the grid
Being subject to Kings, Rulers, Magistrates v. Civil Disobedience ?

Article 12 of the Articles of Faith teaches Morgbots not to question authority, or government leaders. To obey, be dutiful, follow orders, etc., without questioning why.

Similar to being good Morgbots, is how we were taught to be good citizens.

Yet in a Republic and a democracy such as ours, questioning authority and being informed is a prerequisite to being a good, stalwart citizen. Not following blindly without taking a stand when necessary against unrighteous dominion or power grab by crooked corrupt government officials.

Which is what happened in Nazi Germany, when the LDS population there capitulated to Hitler and the Third Reich, and threw the Jews under the bus.

There is still an acquiescence by TSCC to powerful leaders to obey blindly without asking the hard questions of our leaders.

That isn't really good stewardship IMO. To be a good citizen requires vigilance and duty to stand up against tyranny, and not capitulate to unrighteous dominion by power grubbers. That is the same whether it is religious radicals like cult figures running a corporation aka TSCC or a coup d'etat by elected officials.

We can walk from a church or cult we refuse to believe in. In a democracy though requires stewardship. It is not a passive occupation to be a citizen of a Republic.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Being subject to Kings, Rulers, Magistrates v. Civil Dis
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:18 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 pm
Posts: 10992
Location: Multiverse
You might find this book of interest:

https://www.amazon.com/Moroni-Swastika- ... 0806146680

From the Amazon blurb:

While Adolf Hitler’s National Socialist government was persecuting Jews and Jehovah’s Witnesses and driving forty-two small German religious sects underground, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints continued to practice unhindered. How some fourteen thousand Mormons not only survived but thrived in Nazi Germany is a story little known, rarely told, and occasionally rewritten within the confines of the Church’s history—for good reason, as we see in David Conley Nelson’s Moroni and the Swastika. A page-turning historical narrative, this book is the first full account of how Mormons avoided Nazi persecution through skilled collaboration with Hitler’s regime, and then eschewed postwar shame by constructing an alternative history of wartime suffering and resistance.

The Twelfth Article of Faith and parts of the 134th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants function as Mormonism’s equivalent of the biblical admonition to “render unto Caesar,” a charge to cooperate with civil government, no matter how onerous doing so may be. Resurrecting this often-violated doctrinal edict, ecclesiastical leaders at the time developed a strategy that protected Mormons within Nazi Germany. Furthermore, as Nelson shows, many Mormon officials strove to fit into the Third Reich by exploiting commonalities with the Nazi state. German Mormons emphasized a mutual interest in genealogy and a passion for sports. They sent husbands into the Wehrmacht and sons into the Hitler Youth, and they prayed for a German victory when the war began. They also purged Jewish references from hymnals, lesson plans, and liturgical practices. One American mission president even wrote an article for the official Nazi Party newspaper, extolling parallels between Utah Mormon and German Nazi society. Nelson documents this collaboration, as well as subsequent efforts to suppress it by fashioning a new collective memory of ordinary German Mormons’ courage and travails during the war.

Recovering this inconvenient past, Moroni and the Swastika restores a complex and difficult chapter to the history of Nazi Germany and the Mormon Church in the twentieth century—and offers new insight into the construction of historical truth.

_________________
You have made this ludicrous assertion about Israelite religion in the New World. Produce one shred of non-faith based evidence to prove it. --Philip Jenkins


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Being subject to Kings, Rulers, Magistrates v. Civil Dis
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:28 pm 
Founder & Visionary
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:07 pm
Posts: 13037
Location: Shady Acres Status: MODERATOR
[MODERATOR NOTE: References to "Morgbots" do not belong in the Celestial Forum; please use that word in this forum, not that one.]

A former co-worker of mine's father was in the Wermacht (German army) during World War II and fought on the Eastern Front--and was also a Mormon. Apparently he (the father) very much impressed his superiors because he could always be relied upon to get something done at any time of the day or night--because he was always sober, unlike his co-soldiers who would get drunk as often as possible.

_________________
"[Elder] Pearson says he uses a 'black box' for those issues that bother him. . . He forgot to mention that his black box has gotten so big he had to put an addition onto his house."

--kairos, 08-08-2018


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Being subject to Kings, Rulers, Magistrates v. Civil Dis
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:59 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:23 pm
Posts: 1277
Location: off the grid
Dr. Shades wrote:
[MODERATOR NOTE: References to "Morgbots" do not belong in the Celestial Forum; please use that word in this forum, not that one.]


Oopsie!

Quote:
A former co-worker of mine's father was in the Wermacht (German army) during World War II and fought on the Eastern Front--and was also a Mormon. Apparently he (the father) very much impressed his superiors because he could always be relied upon to get something done at any time of the day or night--because he was always sober, unlike his co-soldiers who would get drunk as often as possible.


Somehow picturing a cold stone sober German Nazi murdering the Jews, gypsies, gays, blacks, disabled, and Jehovah Witnesses of Germany and elsewhere doesn't resonate any better than were he a drunken German soldier causing mayhem and destruction. His blind allegiance to his country was his downfall.

The Mormon Germans also helped aid in the detection of those Jews who had gone underground or converted to another religion by using their genealogical records. They literally threw the Jews under the bus to the Gestapo.

Aiding and abetting in the mass genocide of their own countrymen. Many Mormon Nazis served as SS and gestapo in the death camps. They were complicit.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Being subject to Kings, Rulers, Magistrates v. Civil Dis
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:03 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:23 pm
Posts: 1277
Location: off the grid
Maksutov wrote:
You might find this book of interest:

https://www.amazon.com/Moroni-Swastika- ... 0806146680

From the Amazon blurb:

While Adolf Hitler’s National Socialist government was persecuting Jews and Jehovah’s Witnesses and driving forty-two small German religious sects underground, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints continued to practice unhindered. How some fourteen thousand Mormons not only survived but thrived in Nazi Germany is a story little known, rarely told, and occasionally rewritten within the confines of the Church’s history—for good reason, as we see in David Conley Nelson’s Moroni and the Swastika. A page-turning historical narrative, this book is the first full account of how Mormons avoided Nazi persecution through skilled collaboration with Hitler’s regime, and then eschewed postwar shame by constructing an alternative history of wartime suffering and resistance.

The Twelfth Article of Faith and parts of the 134th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants function as Mormonism’s equivalent of the biblical admonition to “render unto Caesar,” a charge to cooperate with civil government, no matter how onerous doing so may be. Resurrecting this often-violated doctrinal edict, ecclesiastical leaders at the time developed a strategy that protected Mormons within Nazi Germany. Furthermore, as Nelson shows, many Mormon officials strove to fit into the Third Reich by exploiting commonalities with the Nazi state. German Mormons emphasized a mutual interest in genealogy and a passion for sports. They sent husbands into the Wehrmacht and sons into the Hitler Youth, and they prayed for a German victory when the war began. They also purged Jewish references from hymnals, lesson plans, and liturgical practices. One American mission president even wrote an article for the official Nazi Party newspaper, extolling parallels between Utah Mormon and German Nazi society. Nelson documents this collaboration, as well as subsequent efforts to suppress it by fashioning a new collective memory of ordinary German Mormons’ courage and travails during the war.

Recovering this inconvenient past, Moroni and the Swastika restores a complex and difficult chapter to the history of Nazi Germany and the Mormon Church in the twentieth century—and offers new insight into the construction of historical truth.


It was learning of this book by the historian who wrote it that uncovered that sordid chapter of Mormon history. He spoke at an ex-Mormon conference a couple of years ago on the subject.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Being subject to Kings, Rulers, Magistrates v. Civil Dis
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:30 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:38 pm
Posts: 5085
I remember at least one spirited EQ meeting where this issue came up, and it led to a lively debate. Imagine that, an actual exchange of ideas in a church meeting rather than everyone reciting the answers provided to us. It's probably why I still remember that day. The teacher brought up the question of being an LDS citizen in a corrupt regime, such as Nazi Germany, and following the 12th article of faith. Bill Clinton was President at the time, so of course there were plenty of Elders willing to argue against the 12th Article of Faith in favor of being actively involved in resisting corrupt governments. I would guess that if the lesson was given today, with Trump in office, the opinion would be different. :lol:

_________________
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die."
- Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Being subject to Kings, Rulers, Magistrates v. Civil Dis
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:56 am 
Founder & Visionary
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:07 pm
Posts: 13037
Location: Shady Acres Status: MODERATOR
AmyJo wrote:
Somehow picturing a cold stone sober German Nazi murdering the Jews, gypsies, gays, blacks, disabled, and Jehovah Witnesses of Germany and elsewhere doesn't resonate any better than were he a drunken German soldier causing mayhem and destruction.

Hold on just a second. Regular, average, ordinary Germans fighting on the front lines didn't hop on trains during their off-hours (they had none) and go to the concentration camps to commit murder (or do anything else). Those who manned the concentration camps were selected from among the SS and were an EXTREME minority of the German citizenry.

Plus, the Nazis were a political party. An average German soldier wasn't automatically a Nazi any more than an average American soldier is a Democrat.

Quote:
His blind allegiance to his country was his downfall.

How do you know his allegiance was blind? How do you know he wasn't drafted like all other 18 year-old German young men?

Quote:
The Mormon Germans also helped aid in the detection of those Jews who had gone underground or converted to another religion by using their genealogical records. They literally threw the Jews under the bus to the Gestapo.

What % of Mormon Germans did any of that?

Quote:
Aiding and abetting in the mass genocide of their own countrymen. Many Mormon Nazis served as SS and gestapo in the death camps. They were complicit.

Call for references on those assertions.

_________________
"[Elder] Pearson says he uses a 'black box' for those issues that bother him. . . He forgot to mention that his black box has gotten so big he had to put an addition onto his house."

--kairos, 08-08-2018


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Being subject to Kings, Rulers, Magistrates v. Civil Dis
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:24 am 
CTR B
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:33 pm
Posts: 142
Location: Shilleuk-sa Temple
Maksutov wrote:
You might find this book of interest:

https://www.amazon.com/Moroni-Swastika- ... 0806146680

From the Amazon blurb:

While Adolf Hitler’s National Socialist government was persecuting Jews and Jehovah’s Witnesses and driving forty-two small German religious sects underground, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints continued to practice unhindered. How some fourteen thousand Mormons not only survived but thrived in Nazi Germany is a story little known, rarely told, and occasionally rewritten within the confines of the Church’s history—for good reason, as we see in David Conley Nelson’s Moroni and the Swastika. A page-turning historical narrative, this book is the first full account of how Mormons avoided Nazi persecution through skilled collaboration with Hitler’s regime, and then eschewed postwar shame by constructing an alternative history of wartime suffering and resistance.

The Twelfth Article of Faith and parts of the 134th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants function as Mormonism’s equivalent of the biblical admonition to “render unto Caesar,” a charge to cooperate with civil government, no matter how onerous doing so may be. Resurrecting this often-violated doctrinal edict, ecclesiastical leaders at the time developed a strategy that protected Mormons within Nazi Germany. Furthermore, as Nelson shows, many Mormon officials strove to fit into the Third Reich by exploiting commonalities with the Nazi state. German Mormons emphasized a mutual interest in genealogy and a passion for sports. They sent husbands into the Wehrmacht and sons into the Hitler Youth, and they prayed for a German victory when the war began. They also purged Jewish references from hymnals, lesson plans, and liturgical practices. One American mission president even wrote an article for the official Nazi Party newspaper, extolling parallels between Utah Mormon and German Nazi society. Nelson documents this collaboration, as well as subsequent efforts to suppress it by fashioning a new collective memory of ordinary German Mormons’ courage and travails during the war.

Recovering this inconvenient past, Moroni and the Swastika restores a complex and difficult chapter to the history of Nazi Germany and the Mormon Church in the twentieth century—and offers new insight into the construction of historical truth.


Mak, thanks for bringing this interesting book to my attention!

_________________
It is better to travel well than to arrive.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Being subject to Kings, Rulers, Magistrates v. Civil Dis
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:39 am 
CTR B
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:33 pm
Posts: 142
Location: Shilleuk-sa Temple
I have no scholarly insight to add, but as a casual student of Mormon history, it seems like the 12th Article of Faith was sort of feel-good dictum when Joseph Smith wrote the Wentworth Letter. Mormons didn’t, at that time, and especially during the Utah years of in-your-face polygyny, seem overly worried about being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, etc.

I don’t know when the shift from religious rebel to pious patriot became a cultural trait of U.S. Mormons, but the alarming political rhetoric from then-apostle Ezra Taft Benson certainly agitated things. (Obviously, the Mormons in Nazi Germany are an independent case-study.)

In any case, Mormons in this part of the world have largely associated their patriotism with overt right-wing, or at least right-leaning, politics. We Mormons love our strongmen. And our wars. (sigh...)

_________________
It is better to travel well than to arrive.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Being subject to Kings, Rulers, Magistrates v. Civil Dis
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:53 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:29 pm
Posts: 3792
Wonhyo wrote:
I have no scholarly insight to add, but as a casual student of Mormon history, it seems like the 12th Article of Faith was sort of feel-good dictum when Joseph Smith wrote the Wentworth Letter. Mormons didn’t, at that time, and especially during the Utah years of in-your-face polygyny, seem overly worried about being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, etc.

I don’t know when the shift from religious rebel to pious patriot became a cultural trait of U.S. Mormons, but the alarming political rhetoric from then-apostle Ezra Taft Benson certainly agitated things. (Obviously, the Mormons in Nazi Germany are an independent case-study.)

In any case, Mormons in this part of the world have largely associated their patriotism with overt right-wing, or at least right-leaning, politics. We Mormons love our strongmen. And our wars. (sigh...)

Wonhyo,
I think you make good clarification of Amy concern over that article of faith. I checked the article in question and find that it does not contain anything about unthinking obedience. It seems the degree of obedience people expect depends upon the policy. Today a Mormon can exercise armed resistance to the government without official sanction. (well without approval as well )

I think Shades comments are completely appropriate. I think Mormon actions in Germany would result from a cluster of considerations. Not all would be complete cooperation. I think willingness to arrive at complete cooperation could be facilitated by the longing for authoritarian power which you observed.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Being subject to Kings, Rulers, Magistrates v. Civil Dis
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:44 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:23 pm
Posts: 1277
Location: off the grid
Dr. Shades wrote:
Hold on just a second. Regular, average, ordinary Germans fighting on the front lines didn't hop on trains during their off-hours (they had none) and go to the concentration camps to commit murder (or do anything else). Those who manned the concentration camps were selected from among the SS and were an EXTREME minority of the German citizenry.

Plus, the Nazis were a political party. An average German soldier wasn't automatically a Nazi any more than an average American soldier is a Democrat.

How do you know his allegiance was blind? How do you know he wasn't drafted like all other 18 year-old German young men?


Anyone who was part of the mass genocide machine of Hitler's Third Reich was complicit in those war crimes. If they did oppose it, then their allegiance wasn't blind. They were still complicit in carrying out those orders. If they didn't oppose it, you have to wonder why didn't they? They weren't blind. They knew who was disappearing within their communities. And they helped round them up to hand them over to the killing machine. There was no neutrality for those German soldiers. They were either for or against. To be against, they'd be sent to the gas chambers themselves, or executed. It was easier for the Mormon Germans to go along than to oppose their government. To go along they had to be complicit in the gassing of the Jews and others Germany declared who the undesirables were. Mormons didn't question. That doesn't get them off the hook.

Quote:
The Mormon Germans also helped aid in the detection of those Jews who had gone underground or converted to another religion by using their genealogical records. They literally threw the Jews under the bus to the Gestapo.


Quote:
What % of Mormon Germans did any of that?


Most of them, according to the book by historian Nelson. The Mormon church statewide in Germany banned Jews from entering their chapels or churches. Placing swastikas and "Jews barred" signs on their doors. While any Jews that might have previously converted were banned from attending. The genealogy was what they had readily at their disposal to throw the Jews under the bus to Hitler. By determining which of them were converts. Which were born to a Jewish parent or grandparent, even if they'd converted to Christianity or become secular. Germany used the Mormon church records that were readily provided them by culpable Mormons to round up those among them who weren't otherwise recognized as being Jewish, or part Jewish. Hitler's formula for who was a Jew was they had to have at least a parent or grandparent who was Jewish even if they were not. The Mormons used their genealogy records to help the Gestapo find those of mixed parentage.

Aiding and abetting in the mass genocide of their own countrymen. Many Mormon Nazis served as SS and gestapo in the death camps. They were complicit.

Quote:
Call for references on those assertions.


Nelson's book says it all. "Moroni and the Swastika." I hadn't known of the Mormon's complicity before learning about it from him.

It's all in there. While he was speaking at the ex-Mormon conference in 2015 a man came up to him afterwards (in Salt Lake City,) bragging that his own father had been one of the Mormon guards in the concentration camps. He was proud of that fact. I found it shocking in light of what Nelson's book exposed about Mormons complicity with the Nazis. His father had been a SS guard.

So I get it's a part of his history. But to boast about it? Sick. He should have been tried as a war criminal. Many of the SS guards and Nazis (including Mormons among them,) immigrated to America following WWII.

J Reuben Clark was a virile anti-Semite during WWII, and his lifetime. As a GA, he turned his backs on the Jews of Germany when they implored him to do something on their behalf. He aided and abetted from Salt Lake City in cooperating with the Third Reich, and assisting the German Mormons smoke out their fellow countrypeople.

Where is that documented? "Moroni and the Swastika."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Chadillac, Majestic-12 [Bot] and 62 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Revival Theme By Brandon Designs By B.Design-Studio © 2007-2008 Brandon
Revival Theme Based off SubLite By Echo © 2007-2008 Echo
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group