litigation

[_candygal]

Rosebud, forgive me if I am wrong..but it seems to me that no matter what happens to others...you want revenge on John. This is not good..perhaps you need to somehow get rid of this anger and let it go..way past time. I do empathize with the trials you have faced. But there are sometimes more important things than revenge.

[_Rosebud]

It's okay for me to have a perspective, too, Candygal. If I wanted revenge, I would have taken it, no? I have been very very gentle.

Revenge is a harsh word. Please be more gentle with others.

[_Goldenbrass]

My opinions on this situation.

In the other thread Consig suggested that he has good intelligence that she released this herself to Mormon Leaks and then changed her mind shortly before it went public. At the point she chose to give that to them with the intention of releasing it she should have known that it was out of her control. If that is how it actually happened I have a lot of sympathy for her, but I can also see why anyone wouldn't be want to be involved in covering that up and least of all the people running a site called Mormon Leaks.

I also know that she is less likely to get as much money from the Mormon Church because she can't exchange it for her silence anymore, but maybe it's time the Church learned that there are some things you can't buy in this world for money.

[_Rosebud]

My opinions on this situation.

In the other thread Consig suggested that he has good intelligence that she released this herself to Mormon Leaks and then changed her mind shortly before it went public. At the point she chose to give that to them with the intention of releasing it she should have known that it was out of her control. If that is how it actually happened I have a lot of sympathy for her, but I can also see why anyone wouldn't be want to be involved in covering that up and least of all the people running a site called Mormon Leaks.

I also know that she is less likely to get as much money from the Mormon Church because she can't exchange it for her silence anymore, but maybe it's time the Church learned that there are some things you can't buy in this world for money.

I wonder when the tipping point will come. When will all the people who really have something to say gather en masse and make their own public demands?

I don't think John and Ryan personally have a much of a moral argument for releasing it against her will if what you say is true and if she informed them beforehand that she had changed her mind. I think the public can argue that they're glad it happened because it is a public service, but that's a different thing than arguing that the individuals involved had a right to move forward without her consent. They didn't. That's one argument I'd make if she were pursuing damages and I were her attorney. What I'm really sick of is the personal needs of individuals being exploited for "public service." While i suppose the public can justifiably make the argument that the lamb placed on the sacrificial alter of "public good" was worth the harm done after the fact, the individuals who do the exploiting (for personal gain) have no valid excuse.

Will it ever happen that the real voices will ever gather en masse and put Mormon predation out of business? My guess is that at some point a lot of people must realize just how messed the whole system is and do more as I have done..... exit stage right (relatively) quietly.

Part of the problem is summed up in this Q: What public demands can anyone make that the people who are holding the media and ecclesiastical power will ever really listen to? Everybody is busy. Members of the public have their own lives to live and almost everybody defends whatever person or group that's in power whom/that they feel an affinity to at the moment. That's all the bandwidth any of us have got with all the media stimulation and everything that's happening in each of our individual lives. As a result, all we get is one large media mess after another possibly taking us in a general direction yet driving as many of the real voices away from the conflict as towards it.

This could go on for years. Plus, there's a biological component to it. Human cognitive override can't beat the base biology of behavior. The sexual part of our brain is so near the emotional part of our brain and men will rut and dominate while women will take cover. Society after society has long shamed women for men's actions while upholding the men. It happens in ex-Mormonism just like it happens in Mormonism. I'm an example of that. Humans aren't going to change the way we're biologically wired to act. Individual behaviors in group situations are a biologically wired part of us. They're about survival and passing genes to the next generation. We're not likely to trump that with our tool being social media and websites.

It's really a shame that Mormonism ever began. I wish my ancestors hadn't been conned. I bet I'd be living a much happier and more productive New Englad life if I hadn't had to take the long journey back to the place my people came from before Joseph Smith got to them.

Okay, no more insomnia thoughts.... time to get back to sleep.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

https://mormonleaks.io/newsroom/2018/03 ... hop-audio/

I’m the woman in the recording with Joseph L. Bishop. My identity will be revealed when I file the lawsuit.

First, although MormonLeaks did release my recording prior to my consent, Mr. McKnight and Mr. Dodge support my cause. It is my belief that they were concerned about ALL of the victims that may become forgotten if my story was silenced by a settlement and non-disclosure agreement. I cannot fault them for that. Having this story leaked has actually helped me. I was struggling with the settlement. Part of me wanted to take it and part of me didn’t. They made it easy for me. I didn’t have to choose. Some have stated that I am heroic and brave. I am neither of those things. I interviewed my rapist because I was pissed off. The church told me I wasn’t entitled to know what action, if any, had been taken in my reporting his raping me to several church leaders for 30 years. I was fed up. It was neither brave nor heroic.

Part of me wanted this to go away quietly and a bigger part of me wanted to scream from the top of the mountain what he did to me. Now I get to scream!

Even if the leak of the recording was prior to my consent, I do not agree that these men are re-victimizing me. I don’t think they would have released the recording without giving it serious thought and weighing the consequences heavily.

I look forward to sharing more of the story in the coming weeks.

[_Goldenbrass]

https://mormonleaks.io/newsroom/2018/03/24/statement-on-behalf-of-victim-in-joseph-l-bishop-audio/

I’m the woman in the recording with Joseph L. Bishop. My identity will be revealed when I file the lawsuit.

First, although MormonLeaks did release my recording prior to my consent, Mr. McKnight and Mr. Dodge support my cause. It is my belief that they were concerned about ALL of the victims that may become forgotten if my story was silenced by a settlement and non-disclosure agreement. I cannot fault them for that. Having this story leaked has actually helped me. I was struggling with the settlement. Part of me wanted to take it and part of me didn’t. They made it easy for me. I didn’t have to choose. Some have stated that I am heroic and brave. I am neither of those things. I interviewed my rapist because I was pissed off. The church told me I wasn’t entitled to know what action, if any, had been taken in my reporting his raping me to several church leaders for 30 years. I was fed up. It was neither brave nor heroic.

Part of me wanted this to go away quietly and a bigger part of me wanted to scream from the top of the mountain what he did to me. Now I get to scream!

Even if the leak of the recording was prior to my consent, I do not agree that these men are re-victimizing me. I don’t think they would have released the recording without giving it serious thought and weighing the consequences heavily.

I look forward to sharing more of the story in the coming weeks.

Good to hear from her own perspective. I do disagree with her when she says she isn't heroic and brave, I think she is both.

[_Rosebud]

Good to hear from her own perspective. I do disagree with her when she says she isn't heroic and brave, I think she is both.

Met too. I feel a lot better hearing from her, too. She is very brave to do this. I don't even know who Mr. Dodge is. I suppose that's because I see Mormonism through such a narrow lens now that I'm hardly interacting with it anymore. This story and a couple other things going on in my life drove me out of my away-from-Mormon shell... so here I am adding to my "record." I'm looking forward to taking an even bigger step away in the near future. Thing is, the public record of what has occurred with me since 2012 as it relates to John Dehlin just keeps getting longer and longer and there's nothing I can do to stop it. I've had posts from this board pop up in my life in ways that I suppose might be interesting to others in the future. Idk. Now the best approach I have is to keep recording. So I do.

I'm not like this woman. I liked my privacy and my shell and I am very angry that I've been driven out of it against my will. I don't think John had a right to do that. And I don't want to turn it into something bigger than me. I think this woman is a hero and is amazing, etc., but I don't want to be a hero to anybody but myself and my kids and I struggle enough with being that kind of hero that as it is. It seems I keep getting put in positions that require me to act like a hero that I'm not and don't want to be. And I don't like it. (Grrrr....)

I don't know if I agree that forcing her to a new place is helping her, but it sure is a positive reframe of what happened and I love it! I am so excited that she is taking this on. Hero for sure.

I've been thinking, for a while, that I want to add to this "record" I'm making here the texts that I received from/about John Dehlin back during that KK, KM and James P drama a while back. I don't know why I refused to put them here before except that adding evidence seems to add more fuel to fires. The amount of fuel I would have added was more than I wanted at the moment. My objective has been to create a dated record, get the amount of attention I think this issue deserves, and keep drama fires from burning out of control. My objective has been to create evidence as I go -- evidence that makes sense of the rest of the media drama people watch in other places.

As the media drama has moved in a better direction for now, the timing of adding the texts I received that day to this record seems better for me at present. Considering all the factors involved, holding off until better times has seemed prudent. Nobody cares about me or this right now. Better.

So, here goes... for the record.

___________

On Saturday, May 27th at 10:00am, I received a text from John Dehlin that said:

[My in real life first name] - Someone is trying to discuss our story on the MSPC, and is using your name. Do I/we have your permission to openly discuss? I have CC'd 2 of the group mods here. Please let us know if you would like this discussed openly on the MSPC. The mods are deciding what to do.

Then, immediately, a female mod writes (I received the texts almost simultaneously):

John this isn't worth it and is playing into the personal bullying and is not productive on our Facebook community in my opinion.

I know you don't want to get more flack for banning people but we cannot tolerate this just because you want to appease and be "open" to everyone.

If you choose to do this, you need to talk to a lawyer and be careful that a response doesn't create new personal liability for him. This is beyond your reputation and you need to avoid creating legal issues.

New immediate text, still by female mod.

Personal liability for you and for [my in real life first name].

My immediate response:

I have been banned from that community since 2012 and you are asking me if you can openly discuss using my name in 2017?

Text from female mod:

I'll delete. -[mod's in real life first name]

John again:

[My in real life name] - Mostly wanted to now if you want us to keep it up or delete.

If you have a preference.

[Mod's in real life name] - If you decide to delete, please provide an explanation.

I then screenshot the texts and send my screenshots back.

Female Mod:

I deleted per community policy until all parties are at table with a plan. I left a comment. And will post.

Screenshot from mod in MSPC about deletion of post with my in real life name.

Me again:

Please do not contact me again.

John.

Mods are free to contact me but John needs to leave me completely alone.

I then texted the mod and left a legal statement against John using my in real life name in the MSPC for her to send to the Open Stories Foundation board of directors.

(Later, the next day I think, I was posting here and I was very upset having heard directly from John even though he won't post here publicly and refuses to allow me to speak in public places where there are others witnessing the conversation (such as the MSPC). I decided then that the obvious thing to do was block him. That has been better. And the truth is, I don't want to get into big, stupid public debates with him. It's all very manipulative. I'd just rather quietly make this record in this little place and move on with my life.)

________________________

Here was/is my take:

John's objective from the beginning was a large scale Internet media harassment of me that included banning me and silencing me, falsely repenting, promoting his false repentance, then creating a false narrative that he would sell to the public.

I, of course, didn't really go for being silenced and swept under the rug and having a false version of my story being used for media purposes, so I fought back, making it impossible for John to follow through with his intentions to smear me publicly for his business. After his fake repentance podcast came out in 2013, that included me getting an attorney and filing documents with the New Hampshire Human Rights Commission that I knew would become part of his public record in the future. (New Hampshire Human Rights Commission documents are sealed from the public and this played into it later because John didn't know that at the time.)

In 2017, When the KM, KK, and James P drama occurred and my posts here got attention, John used that as a further attempt to dox me in order to continue in his revenge and to put this story behind him publicly through promoting his version of it. Notice that in these texts he never offered to allow me back into the MSPC so I could speak for myself. All I would have every been allowed, even 5 years later, was to have other people discuss "our story" without my input, using my in real life name, while I was still silenced and while he used threats behind the scenes to frighten others from speaking. (Yes, these threats really happen and John has a lot of media power. People are afraid of what he will do to their names just like I am afraid. People stay silent because that's just the safest thing to do.)

Another thing that is worth noting about this quick text exchange is the female mod's behaviors. John keeps women around him who believe he is being bullied. I believed that at first, too. That's one of the reasons he targeted me: in the beginning, he loved that I thought he was a victim. He doesn't like and can't handle rejection and was being rejected by other people at the moment he first approached me. Along came a vulnerable woman with a very difficult TBM husband (I didn't know about the autism then) who thought John was a victim. I was a perfect next target.

Also, this woman is buying his manipulation that he wants to be "open" to appease James P (who used my in real life name after seeing my link to my Mormons Building Bridges bio here). No, what was going on was John was using the moment as an attempt to dox me and steer the story towards the public version he wanted to promote. John is clearly not "open" and appeasing of people with all of his bannings and silencing, but this woman is buying his argument that he is and then giving him attention as she tries to stop it.... even while I am still banned and there is no chance of that changing.

She also says that she's trying to protect him from legal liability. She even tells me that it's my responsibility to not create any liability for him ("If you choose to do this, you need to talk to a lawyer and be careful that a response doesn't create new personal liability for him") and then recognizes her mistake and clarifies that she's talking to both of us, making her wording sound more equal ("Personal liability for you and for [my in real life first name]." She seems to be texting very quickly, I would assume because she had been coping with managing him and the stressful situation before he decided to come to me to get the permission he wanted to go against her recommendations.

______________

Anyway, the other thing this has to do with this thread for me is that after so many years of having been at the brunt of John's revenge and finding the best ways I could devise to manage it and keep my family safe from him (and my family is not yet safe considering the many things that have happened since and the way this story keeps popping into my life), I still get people telling me that I am the vengeful one. I never sued him. I told him I wouldn't and I haven't gone against that. I understand now what was wrong with me in 2011 and 2012 and that what I felt for him wasn't really love, but my own vulnerability and the circumstances I was in. Even so, I don't have the desire to directly confront or harm someone I felt that way for at one time even if the feeling was false. I am very sad about how much he pretended to love me and how he has treated me since that time. I do not want to be that kind of ugly in return. Also, as I've said before, I really don't think that people who litigate by choice are well. The legal system is a mess if ever I saw one. And I don't know why anybody would want the kind of attention that this stuff requires... but I still think this woman is a hero.

And so now I just make records, but I'm repeating myself. To again be clear, there is no "our story" as John put it in his text. That's his way of trying to make my story become the story he wants to promote. The reality is that there is my story and there is his story and there are thousands and thousands and thousands of other stories. I don't like being personally used for media purposes without any say as to what really happened and my story is a lot different than his.

Last night I spent a few minutes trying to explain all this to my boyfriend. I can be very quiet and he often doesn't know what's going on with me. As I was trying to explain, I got stuck at acronyms like "MTC" and titles like "Mission President" or "President of the MTC" or whatever. It's hard to explain to an outsider. Then, after I got the story out, I just said, "It's really unhealthy for me to even think about this. I need to look away." And he just hugged me and agreed. I keep thinking he'll dump me because of the ridiculous stress that is going on in my life. Why should he have to deal with what comes my way because of Mormonism and my ex-husband and other factors? And it's true that things get tense in our relationship... not because of what's going on between him and me (that's so easy!), but because of all the other things that occur because of Mormonism and my family, and my problems, etc.

And then things get better in our relationship again. I don't know what will happen, but I like being attached to the outside world in a way that helps me put this behind me and I like the chance to finally have a real relationship with a man even though it took me to my 40s to find it. I guess this is what it's like for "normal" people. I don't know what the future will hold, or if he'll still be my boyfriend in six months with everything that's happening, but I like that I've had him for almost three years now. It's been a good ride.

All right... whatever.... continue on Mormonland. Be well, all who take the time to read my quiet record on a back corner of the Internet that I hope will coincide with all the other records that continue to be made whether I like it or not.... and I wish this woman well. I am going to turn off my "Mormon Church" Google Alert for now and try to stick with what's healthy for me.

[_Rosebud]

Oh.... I should add that in addition to everything else that's going on in the public documentation realm of my life, my ex-husband now says he's going to write a book to prove to my children and all my progeny how terrible of a person I am and how I've destroyed so much and abused him, etc. I think he'll be trying to prove that he doesn't have autism (in addition to many other things) and doesn't get that the basic premise of his objective proves the autism. Autism. My kids are all typically developing and seem to manage the autism-typically developing interactions well so his threat is silly, but.... yeah.

Anyway.... I don't really think it'll be all that interesting of a read if he ever gets around to it... sorry to sound so... idk... dismissive of his capacity to hold an effective argument, but I think his idea is demonstrative of how out of control all of this has gotten. I've been upset about things that have gone on and have taken on a new desire to move the autism and intimate relationships and high-conflict divorce conversation forward publicly and with John Dehlin and all of this, it sounds like my ex has decided to become an author to defend himself. It could work well if he gets an editor to help him, I suppose. Crazy world.

I used to believe the Internet was a valuable thing. Maybe it still is.... idk. (Okay, really leaving now.)

[_Tuna_Surprise]

Oh.... I should add that in addition to everything else that's going on in the public documentation realm of my life, my ex-husband now says he's going to write a book to prove to my children and all my progeny how terrible of a person I am and how I've destroyed so much and abused him, etc. I think he'll be trying to prove that he doesn't have autism (in addition to many other things) and doesn't get that the basic premise of his objective proves the autism. Autism. My kids are all typically developing and seem to manage the autism-typically developing interactions well so his threat is silly, but.... yeah.

Why do you point out autism as if it were a bad thing?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Oh.... I should add that in addition to everything else that's going on in the public documentation realm of my life, my ex-husband now says he's going to write a book to prove to my children and all my progeny how terrible of a person I am and how I've destroyed so much and abused him, etc. I think he'll be trying to prove that he doesn't have autism (in addition to many other things) and doesn't get that the basic premise of his objective proves the autism. Autism. My kids are all typically developing and seem to manage the autism-typically developing interactions well so his threat is silly, but.... yeah.

Why do you point out autism as if it were a bad thing?

Is autism a good thing?

- Doc