The sister-wife of Smith and the account of Joseph Jackson

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_Grudunza
_Emeritus
Posts: 196
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:23 am

Re: The sister-wife of Smith and the account of Joseph Jacks

Post by _Grudunza »

Theophanes wrote:
grindael wrote:Joseph likened himself as a latter day David, and so bragging to Jackson about having so many wives like they (David & Solomon) isn't a stretch to believe.
I am curious what your opinion is regarding Jacob 2 in the Book of Mormon and whether Joseph Smith wrote it. Do you believe he did?

I myself question whether he did, because of such verses as:
This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms because of the things which were written concerning David and Solomon, his son.
Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord ...


Of course, D&C 132 says the opposite (“I, the Lord, justified my servants... David and Solomon... as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines”). I think Joseph Smith just fudged things at different times according to his current needs. The idea of “continuing revelation” from a prophet was very convenient that way.
http://www.WeirdAlma.com
Weird Alma - Prophet of the New Disputation
_Res Ipsa
_Emeritus
Posts: 10274
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 pm

Re: The sister-wife of Smith and the account of Joseph Jacks

Post by _Res Ipsa »

I think Smith was making it up on the fly, leading to these kinds of inconsistencies and flip flops.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Theophanes
_Emeritus
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:46 pm

Re: The sister-wife of Smith and the account of Joseph Jacks

Post by _Theophanes »

grindael wrote:He might have had some help, but he was the driving force behind it. I have found no credible evidence to contradict this belief.

When reading John Whitmer's History I was struck by this passage (Book of Commandments 37:6):
Behold thou wast sent forth, even as John, to prepare the way before me, and before Elijah which should come, and thou knew it not.
In context, this is of course Jesus speaking to Sidney Rigdon; however, it drew to mind the Spalding-Rigdon Theory.

Do you think it is possible that Rigdon understood these words in the context of the Book of Mormon's development and his acquisition of the Spalding manuscript? Perhaps Rigdon (and possibly some others) brought the idea of the Book of Mormon to Smith (perhaps via Cowdery).

Also, have you seen this series by the Exmormon Foundation, entitled Authorship - Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utDU45lm210 - If so, what are your thoughts on the data and analysis?

In my opinion, Jacob 2 is the most passionate portion of the Book of Mormon. I tend to think that Rigdon or someone else wrote it in response to some comments made by Smith, about polygamy or whatever. But it is hard to believe that Smith himself wrote it - It does not fit with his personality; the author appears to have empathy.
_Grudunza
_Emeritus
Posts: 196
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:23 am

Re: The sister-wife of Smith and the account of Joseph Jacks

Post by _Grudunza »

I assume grindael doesn’t ascribe to the Spalding theory, from what he said before. I do like “Joseph Smith did it alone” more, as it’s cleaner with fewer moving parts, but if we were lining up possible suspects in a room, I think there is some interesting evidence/testimony worth bringing in Rigdon/Spalding for. The big stumbling point is putting Rigdon in contact with Joseph prior to the official story (i.e., before the Book of Mormon was published). There are some who claim they saw them together during those formative years, but it’s pretty thin and difficult to substantiate.
http://www.WeirdAlma.com
Weird Alma - Prophet of the New Disputation
_Theophanes
_Emeritus
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:46 pm

Re: The sister-wife of Smith and the account of Joseph Jacks

Post by _Theophanes »

Grudunza wrote:I assume grindael doesn’t ascribe to the Spalding theory, from what he said before. I do like “Joseph Smith did it alone” more, as it’s cleaner with fewer moving parts, but if we were lining up possible suspects in a room, I think there is some interesting evidence/testimony worth bringing in Rigdon/Spalding for. The big stumbling point is putting Rigdon in contact with Joseph prior to the official story (i.e., before the Book of Mormon was published). There are some who claim they saw them together during those formative years, but it’s pretty thin and difficult to substantiate.
Joseph could've written the entire Book of Mormon by himself in the span of a few months. It's not a superhuman feat, like many people claim it is. I believe it's called "automatic writing;" where one has the ability to write extensively for prolonged periods of time. Think of L. Ron Hubbard, or Sayyid Ali Muhammad (known as, the Báb).

However, the problem I have with the "sole-authorship theory" is that, it would mean Joseph eventually disregarded many of the instructions in the Book of Mormon, and blatantly. And there is also the theology of the Book of Mormon as well, which Joseph would eventually reject. He was a clever man; so why would he make such a clear about-face? From what I understand, there were many in the early movement who called Joseph out on his reversal and caused much contention.

There is also this verse from the Book of Commandments, which to me seems to suggest that, somehow, the folly and the abominations of Joseph and whoever is for some purpose; because, in them, there will come some good:
And it shall come to pass, that there shall be a great work in the land even among the Gentiles, for their folly and their abominations shall be made manifest, in the eyes of all people: For I am God and mine arm is not shortened and I will show miracles, signs and wonders, unto all those who believe on my name [37:8-9].
I connect this verse with another verse:
and the rebellious shall be pierced with much sorrow, for their iniquities shall be spoken upon the housetops, and their secret acts shall be revealed; and the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples [1:1].
Did Joseph have a plan for iniquity since the beginning? Is that what these verses are describing, or am I just misinterpreting them?
_grindael
_Emeritus
Posts: 6791
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:15 am

Re: The sister-wife of Smith and the account of Joseph Jacks

Post by _grindael »

Scripture is a two edged sword. You can use it to promote "righteousness", but it can come back to bite you, if you are "wicked". Everyone knows their own hearts, and perhaps Joseph had a sincere desire to do some good in the world. But his constant involvement in money digging, peeping, and his questionable behavior with women throws that into doubt. I've never been down with Joseph being a "pious fraud", because Joseph wasn't pious. He tried to address that, with his pithy sayings like "a prophet is only a prophet when he acting as such," and "there are no errors in the revelations I have taught, so must I be thrown away as a thing of naught". Even his followers acknowledged Joseph's problems, like Lorenzo Snow claiming that they had to "throw a cloak of charity over Joseph's faults, indicating that they knew he had problems. Like many who hold absolute power in their hands, Joseph didn't handle it well. I have been studying his Spiritual Wifeism for years, and one thing that almost all of those women have in common is that at some time in their lives, they lived with Joseph. (Almost every one of them). It's not a pretty picture. But Joseph was also innovative and had charisma, and gave great speeches that are still interesting and unique and he founded a movement that still endures.
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: The sister-wife of Smith and the account of Joseph Jacks

Post by _Kishkumen »

I regret the fact that people seem to need a perfect leader. And I don't say that because I feel like they are obliged to put up with a crappy one. Whatever the case may be, people should "learn correct principles and govern themselves." Don't voluntarily assent to being ruled autocratically. Don't follow what other people say just because they assert authority.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
Post Reply