You don't need Jesus

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_Shulem
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Re: You don't need Jesus

Post by _Shulem »

JLHPROF wrote:One look at the things posted by some here is the best testimony of the results of rejecting Christ I've ever seen. Anyone that thinks these kind of mindsets are positive are deluded.


JLHPROF,

You would change your tune if you were an innocent gay man laying in a dirt pit while Moses and his sons lob stones on you crushing your bones and battering you to death. I doubt very much you'd appreciate being executed. Those who were executed under the murderous hand of Moses are the real victims. The Jews and Christians love to persecute gays. They love to judge and condemn. Blood is on the hands of Moses and his cult. It was an evil religion spreading blood and horror.

And thank you for admitting I'm not a hypocrite. Jersey Girl, did you hear that?
_huckelberry
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Re: You don't need Jesus

Post by _huckelberry »

Shulem wrote:
huckelberry wrote:Shulem, Are you a vegetarian strictly avoiding both Mcdonalds and backyard barbecues? You realize that the animal sacrifice business was a matter of shared meals. Now even if you believe vegetarian is a superior way of life surely you do not see the folks at Mcdonalds with the same white hot hostility because of the daily murder of cows and chickens going on behind the façade?



I don't have a problem with eating meat. I don't have a problem with killing animals for a source of food. I do have a problem with slaying animals for religious cult practices and for the purpose of forgiving sins. I have a problem with ritually pouring animal blood on human bodies and religious objects as a matter of veneration and worship. The law of Moses and cult rituals associated with it were a horrific and barbaric practice. Sick and degenerate! All that is beneath you and I.



Shulem, though there are Christian leaders who are homosexual and are looking to change future Christian attitudes about homosexuality, there is sufficient history of violent rejection and ill treatment to be reason for you to choose to keep a clear distance from Christian groups for yourself. Of course you have other reasons as well.

Its is more just to think about the world we live in and our human past that I am inclined to comment about blood and sacrifice. Two things come to my mind. First this animal sacrifice business is hardly something invented by Moses or his followers. It is a virtually universal human activity in the past. Well where it was not being practiced with human victims. During the same time the Jerusalem priest slaughtered animals Europeans were merrily wacking people and spilling their blood. It is possible that a practice so widespread had some sort of meaning important to people.

I am glad society has found substitutes for the practice, particularly the human variety. Even so animal sacrifice had the reasonable benefit of creating shared meals that people enjoyed,and needed nutritionally. I cannot help but think you are imagining in an unrealistic way to picture blood poured on people and the creation of a lot of fear. I have heard of some Mithric rites pouring blood all over the initiate. It is not an Old Testament rite. The old testament people celebrated and believed that their Gods love endures forever.

I think the Bible records a path of rethinking the cultural prehistory which assumed all sorts of sacrifice including human. The meanings of those ancient traditions were reviewed , changed and in the process the actual sacrifices changed. The human sacrifice stopped and later animal sacrifices stopped. Our society still reflects upon the meaning of sacrifice however. I think it is also true that our society has not come to unified and final understanding of its meaning.

But sacrifice is something we ask of ourselves and respect in others if we understand it to be for a worthwhile cause. (or at least the idea of a worthwhile cause)
_Shulem
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Re: You don't need Jesus

Post by _Shulem »

huckleberry wrote:Shulem, though there are Christian leaders who are homosexual and are looking to change future Christian attitudes about homosexuality, there is sufficient history of violent rejection and ill treatment to be reason for you to choose to keep a clear distance from Christian groups for yourself. Of course you have other reasons as well.


Yes, there are Christians today who do not necessarily embrace the biblical approach to homosexuality and are more apt to live and let live. That is progress and a good thing. But it doesn't erase the past. It doesn't get rid of what used to be the universal Christian approach to homosexuality which was utter disdain -- worthy of hellfire. Christians have a long history of persecuting gays. It's shameful.

huckleberry wrote:Its is more just to think about the world we live in and our human past that I am inclined to comment about blood and sacrifice. Two things come to my mind. First this animal sacrifice business is hardly something invented by Moses or his followers


I'll grant that. But let's be clear about something: Moses perfected animal sacrifice and took it to the extreme. He was totally addicted to animal sacrifice and had an unquenchable thirst for blood and death. His book of Leviticus is a testament to just how far a person's mind can dive into cult rituals using blood and all manner of tokens, signs, and rites that were practiced in secret by the sons of Aaraon. So, Moses isn't the inventor of animal sacrifice but he was the worst offender to dabble in the nasty art of sacrificial priestcraft that showcased blood for forgiveness and payment.

More later . . .
_Shulem
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Re: You don't need Jesus

Post by _Shulem »

huckleberry wrote:It is a virtually universal human activity in the past. Well where it was not being practiced with human victims. During the same time the Jerusalem priest slaughtered animals Europeans were merrily wacking people and spilling their blood. It is possible that a practice so widespread had some sort of meaning important to people.

Animal and human sacrifice in all its forms is barbaric and cruel. There is no need for it in any age among any people. It's pure religious folly, superstitious nonsense. The Bible provides us a record of just how bad the doctrine of animal sacrifice was and how seriously the Jews and their ancestors took these doctrines. Their god was bloodthirsty and required a constant supply of blood or they couldn't be forgiven of their sins. It's that simple. Blood for sins.

huckleberry wrote:I am glad society has found substitutes for the practice, particularly the human variety. Even so animal sacrifice had the reasonable benefit of creating shared meals that people enjoyed,and needed nutritionally. I cannot help but think you are imagining in an unrealistic way to picture blood poured on people and the creation of a lot of fear. I have heard of some Mithric rites pouring blood all over the initiate. It is not an Old Testament rite. The old testament people celebrated and believed that their Gods love endures forever.

Animal sacrifice under the law of Moses and the cult ordinances thereof were not just about getting a meal. The meal was a byproduct for some of the ordinances. Are not burnt offerings a whole offering that were totally consumed by the fire? The burnt offerings were a compete waste of animal life -- flesh given to invisible Jehovah to consume who boasted about how much he loved the smell. Countless animals were slaughtered and wasted -- sacrificed to Jehovah.

The blood cult rituals performed by Moses and his sons are beyond freaky. They are sick. They are barbaric and beyond the pale of what we might today consider a decent religious rite. Here, see for yourself a couple examples:

1.And he slew it; and Moses took of the blood of it, and put it upon the tip of Aaron's right ear, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot.

2. And he shall kill the lamb of the trespass offering, and the priest shall take some of the blood of the trespass offering, and put it upon the tip of the right ear of him that is to be cleansed, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot:

Etc.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_Shulem
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Re: You don't need Jesus

Post by _Shulem »

huckleberry wrote:I think the Bible records a path of rethinking the cultural prehistory which assumed all sorts of sacrifice including human. The meanings of those ancient traditions were reviewed , changed and in the process the actual sacrifices changed. The human sacrifice stopped and later animal sacrifices stopped. Our society still reflects upon the meaning of sacrifice however. I think it is also true that our society has not come to unified and final understanding of its meaning.

But sacrifice is something we ask of ourselves and respect in others if we understand it to be for a worthwhile cause. (or at least the idea of a worthwhile cause)


The bottom line is simple. You don't need Jehovah. You don't need Jehovah's animal sacrifices either. You don't need Jesus or any human sacrifice to receive the forgiveness of sins from an invisible god. The blood of animals or that of a human such as Jesus do not cleans sins. That is a barbaric myth perpetuated by the Bible.

You don't need Jesus. He's nothing more than a myth.
_JLHPROF
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Re: You don't need Jesus

Post by _JLHPROF »

Shulem wrote:The bottom line is simple. You don't need Jehovah. You don't need Jehovah's animal sacrifices either. You don't need Jesus or any human sacrifice to receive the forgiveness of sins from an invisible god. The blood of animals or that of a human such as Jesus do not cleans sins. That is a barbaric myth perpetuated by the Bible.

You don't need Jesus. He's nothing more than a myth.

The bottom line is you have provided nothing beyond your own dislike of these beliefs that would convince a believer otherwise.
Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God. - Joseph Smith
_Shulem
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Re: You don't need Jesus

Post by _Shulem »

JLHPROF wrote:The bottom line is you have provided nothing beyond your own dislike of these beliefs that would convince a believer otherwise.

JLHPROF,

I did more than that. I pointed out that Moses was a murderer. I pointed out that Jehovah's cult carried out mass murder and persecution against innocent people. I pointed out that Moses and his sons rubbed animal blood on their bodies as tokens of their devotion to their cult rituals which are right on par with what Mormons do in their cult temples. I pointed out that the blood of Jesus is nothing but myth and can't forgive sins or make you a better person. You make yourself a better person and forgive yourself.

You're right, I don't like any of that. I don't like murder and I don't like murderers. Apparently, though, you do.
_Shulem
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Re: You don't need Jesus

Post by _Shulem »

JLHPROF wrote:One look at the things posted by some here is the best testimony of the results of rejecting Christ I've ever seen. Anyone that thinks these kind of mindsets are positive are deluded.


I realize that you think rejecting Christ is a bad thing. I'll tell you, I think accepting Christ is not a good thing. It's not necessary to depend on a mythical person and his bloody sacrifice to forgive yourself and live a good life. Jesus is nothing but snake oil. That's what you're selling, pal. And your church comes with a price, pay $10%.

Hey, a billion Chinese and a billion Indians agree with me.
_Shulem
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Re: You don't need Jesus

Post by _Shulem »

YOU don't need Jesus or blood to forgive yourself.

YOU don't need the Christian church to tell you how to live.

Save your money :-)

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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: You don't need Jesus

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Billions upon billions have gotten along just fine without Jesus. I'd argue we'd be better off having never had the idea we're inherently corrupted and can potentially suffer beyond death without adoring Jesus.

Jesus is 100% unnecessary and is counterproductive to our well-being.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
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