What must all Latter-day Saints implicitly believe?

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_Fence Sitter
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Re: What must all Latter-day Saints implicitly believe?

Post by _Fence Sitter »

cinepro wrote:
Fence Sitter wrote:Though I believe none of the items you list I am still part of the church. As I pointed out above, in that when membership numbers are announced I am part of those numbers. Even the church considers me a member.


Obviously it would be impossible to police the private thoughts of the people on the rolls without a massive inquisition beyond even the wildest dreams of the harshest authoritarian.

Since the Church has no way of discerning the inner thoughts of everyone, it's not very practical to ask what the limits might be on those thoughts. There aren't any limits. It's much more useful to actually talk about the kinds of beliefs that are relevant to being a member of a Church (such as publicly shared beliefs).


Time out.

We are not discussing what some authority in the church might use as a standard for belief, we are talking about what constitutes being "part of the church". You gave a list which defined certain beliefs as necessary to be so considered and I pointed out that even though I did not believe in those items I was still considered part of the church by the church itself. I absolutely believe that is pertinent to the conversation, especially when responding to some blowhard like LLoyd who believes he gets to define what constitutes being a member for everyone else.

Well Scotty guess what, I don't believe in any of that nonsense and the church still counts me as a member. So discussions about being part of the church cannot be limited to belief standards .

We are probably are mostly in agreement here Cinepro, but I don't like those holier than thou members who on the one hand will self righteously claim they know what defines being a member while simultaneously blindly accepting world wide membership numbers announced yearly by the church. If the Maddog LLoyd types of the world want to acknowledge that there really are only about 3-5 million actual members, then your distinction is valid.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_I have a question
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Re: What must all Latter-day Saints implicitly believe?

Post by _I have a question »

Here’s something interesting on this topic from the Mormon Newsroom...
What Are the Core Beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
The founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Joseph Smith, wrote, “The fundamental principles of our religion are … concerning Jesus Christ that He died was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”
In addition to the above, Latter-day Saints believe unequivocally that:
1. Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of our loving Heavenly Father.
2. Christ’s Atonement allows mankind to be saved from their sins and return to live with God and their families forever.
3. Christ’s original Church as described in the New Testament has been restored in modern times.

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormonism-101

That second statement is interesting. It gives the misleading impression that Christs Atonement allows non Mormons to be saved and to to live with their families forever. Which really isn’t quite right. What it should say is:

“We believe that through the [A]tonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.”

Christs Atonement + Mormon Church Membership + Obedience = salvation and families being together.
Why does the Church have to be mealy mouthed when telling people what they believe?

I’m also pretty sure that Christs Church, as described in the New Testament, didn’t have a Presiding Bishopric running a business empire in the shadow of the temple...
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_CameronMO
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Re: What must all Latter-day Saints implicitly believe?

Post by _CameronMO »

I have a question wrote:Here’s something interesting on this topic from the Mormon Newsroom...
What Are the Core Beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
The founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Joseph Smith, wrote, “The fundamental principles of our religion are … concerning Jesus Christ that He died was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”
In addition to the above, Latter-day Saints believe unequivocally that:
1. Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of our loving Heavenly Father.
2. Christ’s Atonement allows mankind to be saved from their sins and return to live with God and their families forever.
3. Christ’s original Church as described in the New Testament has been restored in modern times.

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormonism-101

You can believe all that stuff, yet still get questioned on your commitment to the gospel; be grilled about where you are in your beliefs before the bishop lets you baptize your kid or give him a name and a blessing; not get a temple recommend; not be allowed to attend your kid's wedding; get excommunicated from the church; etc.

I agree with what's been said above. There's a few requirements to be Mormon. Obey your leaders, and don't criticize them, and second, give them your money.
Trimble, you ignorant sack of rhinoceros puss. The only thing more obvious than your lack of education is the foul stench that surrounds you.
_Mittens
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Re: What must all Latter-day Saints implicitly believe?

Post by _Mittens »

I have a question wrote:Here’s something interesting on this topic from the Mormon Newsroom...
What Are the Core Beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
The founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Joseph Smith, wrote, “The fundamental principles of our religion are … concerning Jesus Christ that He died was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”
In addition to the above, Latter-day Saints believe unequivocally that:
1. Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of our loving Heavenly Father.
2. Christ’s Atonement allows mankind to be saved from their sins and return to live with God and their families forever.
3. Christ’s original Church as described in the New Testament has been restored in modern times.

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormonism-101

That second statement is interesting. It gives the misleading impression that Christs Atonement allows non Mormons to be saved and to to live with their families forever. Which really isn’t quite right. What it should say is:

“We believe that through the [A]tonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.”

Christs Atonement + Mormon Church Membership + Obedience = salvation and families being together.
Why does the Church have to be mealy mouthed when telling people what they believe?

I’m also pretty sure that Christs Church, as described in the New Testament, didn’t have a Presiding Bishopric running a business empire in the shadow of the temple...


Does this sound like the orginal Church ? :lol:

President , First and second Counselors, Elder Quorum Presidents, Relief Society Presidents, Wards, Ward Clerks, Stake Presidents, Stake High Councilmen, Regional Representatives ,Sunbeams, Boy scouts, Mia-maids, Temple Recorders, etc.

http://i.imgur.com/G2crg22.jpg
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
_cinepro
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Re: What must all Latter-day Saints implicitly believe?

Post by _cinepro »

Fence Sitter wrote:We are not discussing what some authority in the church might use as a standard for belief, we are talking about what constitutes being "part of the church".


It's an interesting question if you slice it that way.

The easy answer is that everyone on the rolls is somehow "part of the church", but that doesn't fit with the experience and paradigm I've expressed. Someone who was baptized 20 years ago but hasn't attended a meeting or otherwise interacted with other LDS can't really be considered "part of the church."

Likewise, we've had non-member husbands and family members who attended Church, helped out in service projects, served in the Scout program, and otherwise participated in the Ward. Are they a "part of the church" even though they haven't been baptized? By my definition, I would say yes. They might not be on the rolls or have the "saving ordinances", but they're much more a part than those who have stopped participating but remain members.
_I have a question
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Re: What must all Latter-day Saints implicitly believe?

Post by _I have a question »

cinepro wrote:
Fence Sitter wrote:We are not discussing what some authority in the church might use as a standard for belief, we are talking about what constitutes being "part of the church".


It's an interesting question if you slice it that way.

The easy answer is that everyone on the rolls is somehow "part of the church", but that doesn't fit with the experience and paradigm I've expressed. Someone who was baptized 20 years ago but hasn't attended a meeting or otherwise interacted with other LDS can't really be considered "part of the church."

Likewise, we've had non-member husbands and family members who attended Church, helped out in service projects, served in the Scout program, and otherwise participated in the Ward. Are they a "part of the church" even though they haven't been baptized? By my definition, I would say yes. They might not be on the rolls or have the "saving ordinances", but they're much more a part than those who have stopped participating but remain members.


I tend to agree that you can be considered a member of the Church regardless of what you believe, even if that belief is fundamentally opposed to the teachings of the Church, provided you don’t make a fuss publicly or visibly lead others into inactivity. And regardless of how you behave, providing you are inactive.

If the Church cleansed it’s membership rolls to include only those people who turn up at Church at least once a month, what would the actual number look like? In Europe it would be only 20% of the claimed membership. Globally it would be only 36% of the claimed membership.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_moksha
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Re: What must all Latter-day Saints implicitly believe?

Post by _moksha »

At the MD&D website, Bluebell had an interesting exchange with MiserereNobis about Easter. Bluebell observed that Mormons do not really celebrate Easter and that they do not regard any day as holy. I wish someone had asked whether that also applies to Pioneer Day and Smithmas, but I suspect Bluebell would say that those days are also not regarded as holy.

I guess Bluebell is right about deemphasizing many events and celebrations celebrated by traditional Christianity. Religious celebrations like Advent and Lent are unknown to most Mormons.

The concepts most frequently mentioned as being of prime importance is obedience to God's earthly representatives and as one of the toddlers in my ward succinctly put it, "Church is t'woo".
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_toon
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Re: What must all Latter-day Saints implicitly believe?

Post by _toon »

I always thought that the Lloyd approach the church was like Katherine's to Petruchio in The Taming of the Shrew:

Then, God be bless'd, it is the blessed sun;
But sun it is not, when you say it is not;
And the moon changes even as your mind.
What you will have it nam'd, even that it is,
And so it shall be so for Katherine.


It's an adamant defense of and support for a church position, policy, practice, or doctrine, with no quarter given to any need for a change. Except that the minute there is a change, it was not only necessary but inspired.
_cwald
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Re: What must all Latter-day Saints implicitly believe?

Post by _cwald »

kiwi57 wrote: The Lord's anointed servants aren't meant to be infallible guides, they are meant to be authorised ones. We are supposed to follow their direction, not because they can never be wrong, but because the Lord empowers us as we do so.

And whenever the Lord chooses to reveal new truth to His children on the earth, He always does so through His authorised servants, and no-one else.

This is accepted, normative, orthodox - and true - LDS doctrine.


http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70185-elder-uchtdorf-progressive/?page=16
"Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn’t participate enthusiastically." - Robert Kirby

Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson
_Meadowchik
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Re: What must all Latter-day Saints implicitly believe?

Post by _Meadowchik »

cwald wrote:
kiwi57 wrote: The Lord's anointed servants aren't meant to be infallible guides, they are meant to be authorised ones. We are supposed to follow their direction, not because they can never be wrong, but because the Lord empowers us as we do so.

And whenever the Lord chooses to reveal new truth to His children on the earth, He always does so through His authorised servants, and no-one else.

This is accepted, normative, orthodox - and true - LDS doctrine.




I used to describe it like a group hike, where we all have to slow down for the laggers, in order to enjoy the benefits of staying together, and if we stay together, then eventually we'll get to where god wants us to go, together. This was used to defend church positions that are homophobic or problematic in other ways: the Lord was slowing the church down so we wouldn't lose the homophobes, etc...
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