It is currently Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:52 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Elder Christofferson on Age of Missionary Eligibilty
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:14 am 
Seedy Academician
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:00 pm
Posts: 19192
Location: The Brutus Memorial Rectory at Cassius University
I was poking around on the internet looking for information about Tom Christofferson after listening to his Mormon Stories interviews, when I came upon this interesting youtube video of a talk by Elder Christofferson. It is billed as a "faith promoting story" in the description, but appears to be an account, offered in some conference or leadership meeting, of the mundane process by which the age of eligibility for a mission was changed. It is interesting, because Christofferson presents this as an example of divine inspiration.

See:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoLpr2BU2yU

You have to listen very carefully, as the quality of the recording is not that good, unfortunately. I would apologize, but I am not the one who recorded it or shared it. I am just bringing this interesting tidbit to your attention.

What is its value? Well, it has already been noted elsewhere that President Eyring got very teary in his description of a similar scenario. A business meeting brought about a change in policy, and . . . President Eyring is blubbering about it as though it were an angelic visitation or something!

So, there you have it. It is interesting to watch the evolution of institutional charisma in the LDS Church.


Last edited by Kishkumen on Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Elder Christofferson on Age of Missionary Eligibilty
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:30 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:48 pm
Posts: 1797
Pretty amazing how he can call a normal deliberative process that any organization does "revelation" and still have a straight face. He should have stopped with the first explanation that drew the Mormon laughter because that is what really happened.

Christopherson has a lot to learn on selling this nonsense, though. Eyring would have teared up as he explained when they reviewed the pie chart and statistical analyses. Surely these charts were from the Lord .....

_________________
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Elder Christofferson on Age of Missionary Eligibilty
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:55 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:49 am
Posts: 8176
Location: Somewhere between bemused and curious.
I am surprised they have not announced a revelation selling shares in the City Creek Mall or mosquito infested swamp land in Florida.

_________________
"The lives we lead now are not dress rehearsals, they are the only performance we have. Therefore what matters is what we have here, the people we know and and love and the good we can do for the world"
Sean Carroll


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Elder Christofferson on Age of Missionary Eligibilty
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:06 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:48 pm
Posts: 1797
The more I think about this the more I loath Eyring and those who use emotion as a church weapon in order to concoct "revelation" out of the mundane.

_________________
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Elder Christofferson on Age of Missionary Eligibilty
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:12 am 
Son of Perdition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:48 pm
Posts: 7772
The LDS religion makes business decisions and calls them revelation. What a joke. What a laugh. Modern Mormonism is an obvious spoof. It’s going to take everything just to hold on to the members they got. Missionary work is finished. The work is done. The harvest is over. Now we get to gleefully sit back and watch the great Mormon era of decline as the church bleeds its members and resources. The apostles are silly old fools making stuff up to flatter themselves. It’s like watching a circus with clowns and all. What a joke. Hey Tommy, how about another story about a poor widow or little Jimmy’s Christmas train set?

:lol:

_________________
THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3

Includes a startling new discovery!

An original and authentic look at Facsimile No. 3 as never seen before.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Elder Christofferson on Age of Missionary Eligibilty
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:06 am 
Savior (mortal ministry)

Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:51 pm
Posts: 935
Kishkumen wrote:
I was poking around on the internet looking for information about Tom Christofferson after listening to his Mormon Stories interviews, when I came upon this interesting youtube video of a talk by Elder Christofferson. It is billed as a "faith promoting story" in the description, but appears to be an account, offered in some conference or leadership meeting, of the mundane process by which the age of eligibility for a mission was changed. It is interesting, because Christofferson presents this as an example of divine inspiration.

See:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoLpr2BU2yU

You have to listen very carefully, as the quality of the recording is not that good, unfortunately. I would apologize, but I am not the one who recorded it or shared it. I am just bringing this interesting tidbit to your attention.

What is its value? Well, it has already been noted elsewhere that President Eyring got very teary in his description of a similar scenario. A business meeting brought about a change in policy, and . . . President Eyring is blubbering about it as though it were an angelic visitation or something!

So, there you have it. It is interesting to watch the evolution of institutional charisma in the LDS Church.


Your phrase "Evolution of institutional charisma" is apt. From a first prophet dictating God's words, it has evolved to revelation by committee. Charisma refers to the gifts of the Spirit, and what a what a wonderful gift committees can be. For persons like the apostles, who already believe, it is a strong position, especially in our 21st century reality.

One telling part of the revelatory evolution is Joseph revising certain revelations in the Book of Commandments.

A second telling part of the evolution occurred when Wilford Woodruff's and John Taylor's "revelations" of the late 19th century, were dismissed in favor of manifestos and official declarations.

Does a God who values truth want this inconsistent and shifting context to be taught and discussed? I would think so.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Elder Christofferson on Age of Missionary Eligibilty
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:26 am 
First Presidency

Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:21 pm
Posts: 825
Maybe it is grand revelation, designed to help slow the tide of the Church and contribute to people uncovering the illusion--kind of like the internet.

Less converts, less missionaries, more missionaries falling victim to disillusionment and heading home early. Maybe in the long run this revelation is in place to make a mockery of the whole enterprise.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Elder Christofferson on Age of Missionary Eligibilty
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:16 pm 
God

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:01 am
Posts: 8048
Hmmm, it seems I and my colleagues have multiple revelations every day at work. Who knew.

_________________
Joseph Smith proposed to Fanny in the same way Trump proposed to Stormy Daniels.
(Fence Sitter, Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:20pm)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Elder Christofferson on Age of Missionary Eligibilty
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:53 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:53 am
Posts: 4086
Location: Oregon
Is this a significant development?

_________________
"Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn’t participate enthusiastically." - Robert Kirby

Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Elder Christofferson on Age of Missionary Eligibilty
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:05 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:58 pm
Posts: 2693
I have a question wrote:
Hmmm, it seems I and my colleagues have multiple revelations every day at work. Who knew.

LOL

_________________
So you're chasing around a fly and in your world, I'm the idiot?

"Friends don't let friends be Mormon." Sock Puppet, MormonDiscussions.com.

Music is my drug of choice.

"And that is precisely why none of us apologize for holding it to the celestial standard it pretends that it possesses." Kerry, MormonDiscussions.com
_________________


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Elder Christofferson on Age of Missionary Eligibilty
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:15 pm 
God

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:04 am
Posts: 2998
wow who was the lazy idiot that uploaded the video? Hopefully the idiot uploads the original, and hopefully there is more of Christofferson s***


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Elder Christofferson on Age of Missionary Eligibilty
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:35 pm 
God

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:04 am
Posts: 2998
Christofferson said, "I alway had the faith that he does lead the church and faith continues...but I now have the experience to go with the faith that he does directly" LOL what the Hell was that? For how long did Christofferson had faith before getting a religious experience?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Elder Christofferson on Age of Missionary Eligibilty
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:38 pm 
God

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:04 am
Posts: 2998
Thanks Kish! It is a very good video. Hopefully it makes it to Mormon quotes at MormonThink.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Elder Christofferson on Age of Missionary Eligibilty
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:48 pm 
Seedy Academician
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:00 pm
Posts: 19192
Location: The Brutus Memorial Rectory at Cassius University
cwald wrote:
Is this a significant development?

In my view, it is further confirmation that there is a new way of describing prophetic revelation in Mormonism. We laughed about Eyring’s odd tear-filled description of it. Now we see the Lord’s boardroom is the new face of Mormon prophecy and revelation. I suppose that beats President Newsroom!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Elder Christofferson on Age of Missionary Eligibilty
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:53 pm 
Seedy Academician
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:00 pm
Posts: 19192
Location: The Brutus Memorial Rectory at Cassius University
DoubtingThomas wrote:
Christofferson said, "I alway had the faith that he does lead the church and faith continues...but I now have the experience to go with the faith that he does directly" LOL what the Hell was that? For how long did Christofferson had faith before getting a religious experience?


No doubt he is sincere, and how fascinating it is! The divine corporation is at the helm, bringing greater returns on the Savior’s investments. Let there be real estate developments! Let there be stocks and bonds! Let us tweak the age of missionaries, and find a cheaper way to clean the Lord’s meetinghouses!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Elder Christofferson on Age of Missionary Eligibilty
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:38 pm 
God

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:04 am
Posts: 2998
Kishkumen wrote:
No doubt he is sincere, and how fascinating it is! The divine corporation is at the helm, bringing greater returns on the Savior’s investments. Let there be real estate developments! Let there be stocks and bonds! Let us tweak the age of missionaries, and find a cheaper way to clean the Lord’s meetinghouses!


Yes, and I like when Christofferson said, "and he lets struggle, go back and forth, think things through, hear and listen to each other ... much as it is in a ward and stake council...so I think that is why he doesn't answer every question or reveal himself on every issue immediately, he wants us to learn from that experience "

In other words I think he is saying that revelation works by trial and error. Poor guy.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Elder Christofferson on Age of Missionary Eligibilty
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:32 am 
Seedy Academician
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:00 pm
Posts: 19192
Location: The Brutus Memorial Rectory at Cassius University
DoubtingThomas wrote:
Yes, and I like when Christofferson said, "and he lets struggle, go back and forth, think things through, hear and listen to each other ... much as it is in a ward and stake council...so I think that is why he doesn't answer every question or reveal himself on every issue immediately, he wants us to learn from that experience "

In other words I think he is saying that revelation works by trial and error. Poor guy.


Yes, one would almost think he wasn’t even there, so light was his touch, so gentle his reply . . .


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Elder Christofferson on Age of Missionary Eligibilty
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:40 am 
Star B

Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:48 pm
Posts: 111
Kishkumen wrote:
cwald wrote:
Is this a significant development?

In my view, it is further confirmation that there is a new way of describing prophetic revelation in Mormonism. We laughed about Eyring’s odd tear-filled description of it. Now we see the Lord’s boardroom is the new face of Mormon prophecy and revelation. I suppose that beats President Newsroom!

Here is a quote from Hinckley's interview with Larry King in 2004 that explicitly confirms what you and the others here are stating:

Quote:
KING: You are the prophet, right?
HINCKLEY: Right.
KING: Does that mean that, according to the church canon, the Lord speaks through
you?
HINCKLEY: I think he makes his will manifest, yes.
KING: So if you change things, that's done by an edict given to you.
HINCKLEY: Yes, sir.
KING: How do you receive it?
HINCKLEY: Well, various ways. It isn't necessarily a voice heard. Impressions come. The building of this very building I think is an evidence of that. There came an impression, a feeling, that we need to enlarge our facilities where we could hold our conferences. And it was a very bold measure. We had to tear down a big building here and put this building up at great cost. But goodness sakes, what a wonderful thing it's proven to be. It is an answer to many, many needs. And I think it's the result of inspiration.
KING: And that came from something higher than you.
HINCKLEY: I think so.
Larry King Interview, Dec. 26, 2004

_________________
Examining Church Claims
The Examined Life


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Elder Christofferson on Age of Missionary Eligibilty
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:20 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:10 am
Posts: 1744
Kish, you seem to have missed the whole "hastening the work" thing. No links to drop but if you hunt around you can find them I'm sure. Pre age change there was a lot of build up about this change before it was officially announced. Very big yet vague talk about a revelation related to missionary work and changes coming so bold and revolutionary that it would blow people's minds and serve as physical proof that the church is true and really is led by a prophet, etc.

Apostles went on a speaking tour saying stuff like this, literally. Haven't listened to the audio in the OP, but I expect this was from one of those speaking events. One out of dozens, maybe even hundred+ that happened church wide. I was the ward mission leader at the time and attended such an event myself. There was a big global conference/fireside about it as well that got broadcast online and in meeting houses. Might still be archived on LDS.org. Then it turned out the "revelation" was an age change and missionaries getting ipads. Underwhelming to say the least. As I recall this was one of Bill Reel's shelf breaking items. In at least one of his podcasts he talks about this and the whole thing seemed to inspire a more cynical turn for him.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Elder Christofferson on Age of Missionary Eligibilty
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:24 pm 
Seedy Academician
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:00 pm
Posts: 19192
Location: The Brutus Memorial Rectory at Cassius University
Water Dog wrote:
Kish, you seem to have missed the whole "hastening the work" thing. No links to drop but if you hunt around you can find them I'm sure. Pre age change there was a lot of build up about this change before it was officially announced. Very big yet vague talk about a revelation related to missionary work and changes coming so bold and revolutionary that it would blow people's minds and serve as physical proof that the church is true and really is led by a prophet, etc.

Apostles went on a speaking tour saying stuff like this, literally. Haven't listened to the audio in the OP, but I expect this was from one of those speaking events. One out of dozens, maybe even hundred+ that happened church wide. I was the ward mission leader at the time and attended such an event myself. There was a big global conference/fireside about it as well that got broadcast online and in meeting houses. Might still be archived on LDS.org. Then it turned out the "revelation" was an age change and missionaries getting ipads. Underwhelming to say the least. As I recall this was one of Bill Reel's shelf breaking items. In at least one of his podcasts he talks about this and the whole thing seemed to inspire a more cynical turn for him.


Thanks for sharing that Water Dog. Since I have been out of the chapel for some time, I managed to miss a lot of this. I vaguely recall what you are saying about Reel. So, I am still left with the feeling that the OP and the video are worthwhile inasmuch as they contribute to our understanding of what counts as a big revelation in the Lord's boardroom. Is that not fair to say?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Elder Christofferson on Age of Missionary Eligibilty
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:46 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:47 pm
Posts: 5710
So underwhelming.

And yet so predictable.

God allows the apostles to go through months and months of meetings until everybody agrees on seeing an issue "the same way," which Elder Christofferson hastens to amend to "the Lord's way."

Why doesn't God just say something?

I mean, isn't that what the LDS Church teaches we have prophets for?

Or is this some sort of heavenly chess game where God has to arrange the pieces to line up through a laborious (and completely unnecessary) process?

Image

_________________
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Doctor CamNC4Me and 55 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Revival Theme By Brandon Designs By B.Design-Studio © 2007-2008 Brandon
Revival Theme Based off SubLite By Echo © 2007-2008 Echo
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group