It is currently Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:00 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 33 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Trusting a finite God
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:46 am 
Savior (mortal ministry)

Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:51 pm
Posts: 920
One aspect of the LDS belief system that is not discussed frequently, is the idea of a God who hasn't always been God, but progressed into Godhood from a lower station. At first, it seems reasonable, because we see it all around us in mortality: babies progressing to children progressing to adults progressing to wise :rolleyes: senior citizens. Of course in the real cycle of life this reality doesn't end the way LDS beliefs dictate, that is: an endless state in a maximum progression state. :neutral: If this is the actual state of the unseen world (and my policy is not to rule anything out) It seems we have to trust in finite beings, like us only more advanced. These finite gods may or may not have gods above them that they only partially understand, and like the Men in Black, they keep the secret to protect us here in mortality, from the idea of a universe that may always be on the brink of annihilation. We read Joseph Smith's God promotes hyperbole (D&C 19) craftiness (History of the Church 3/10/1844) and even carefully worded denials (essays). Besides that, He is finite, (although he might be striking me any minute now). I can conceive such a God might have my fate in his hands, and thus I may have to negotiate with Him, but how can I TRUST Him?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trusting a finite God
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:08 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:49 am
Posts: 8119
Location: Somewhere between bemused and curious.
What reason would you have to trust an infinite God?

Why is there any reason to assume such a being would place our interest over all others?

_________________
"The lives we lead now are not dress rehearsals, they are the only performance we have. Therefore what matters is what we have here, the people we know and and love and the good we can do for the world"
Sean Carroll


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trusting a finite God
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:41 am 
Savior (mortal ministry)

Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:51 pm
Posts: 920
I can conceive that an infinite God who is always loving and always truthful would be completely trustworthy. Of course, being able to conceive of such a God is not proof of existence. Since my shelf broke I’ve been thinking of what God might be like and exploring possibilities. I seem to have a desire to believe in God. Justifying my belief is something else.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trusting a finite God
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:03 pm 
Valiant A
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:02 pm
Posts: 175
Location: Flitting between the UK and Sweden
If I take the hypothetical that your finite God is the God described within LDS scriptures, then my simple answer is that God is not trustworthy.

I take contention at the idea that God was once not as he currently is, as it is directly at odds with God's claims to be unchanging. A God that chooses to, or mistakenly lies, is no God that will get my trust; though maybe my fear.

_________________
Mormon 9:9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing

D&C 29:34 Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given you a law which was temporal[...]


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trusting a finite God
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:06 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:49 am
Posts: 8119
Location: Somewhere between bemused and curious.
deacon blues wrote:
I can conceive that an infinite God who is always loving and always truthful would be completely trustworthy. Of course, being able to conceive of such a God is not proof of existence. Since my shelf broke I’ve been thinking of what God might be like and exploring possibilities. I seem to have a desire to believe in God. Justifying my belief is something else.


My suggestion is to not limit yourself to possibilities that include God.

I found that taking God out of the equation left me more responsible for what I make of my life. As Steven Carroll says below in my tag line.

"The lives we lead are not dress rehearsals..."

_________________
"The lives we lead now are not dress rehearsals, they are the only performance we have. Therefore what matters is what we have here, the people we know and and love and the good we can do for the world"
Sean Carroll


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trusting a finite God
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:07 pm 
Savior (mortal ministry)

Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:51 pm
Posts: 920
I do consider non-theistic possibilities. And I appreciate the grace of a God of truth and love, as well as the grace of a universe that produced me through no apparent effort on my part. I do lean towards theism because of friends and family who are primarily theist, and also because of a striving for the ideal as well as the real. But I rarely lose sleep over it.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trusting a finite God
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:45 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:04 am
Posts: 4439
Location: Firmly on this earth
It depends on what any finite god is willing to actually do to improve the world as to whether I would go so far as to give my trust. If he commanded it I would tell him stick it. He has to earn it, not command it. That means for one he or she will be a god of truth, not through his own special chosen willy nilly human idiots, but HIMSELF. No more middlemen, they are too untrustworthy, as a supposed all knowing (though finite) god would surely know.

_________________
"Being and nonbeing arise mutually. Thus not to see the unity of self and other is the fear of life, and not to see the unity of being and nonbeing is the fear of death." Alan Watts

"The problem is most religions proceed to try and explain the truth and then insist that you agree with their explanation." Brad Warner


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trusting a finite God
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:12 pm 
God

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:04 am
Posts: 2557
A infinite God can do anything he wants, he can simply make us all good and take us all to heaven. Why is he not doing that?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trusting a finite God
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:16 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:04 am
Posts: 4439
Location: Firmly on this earth
DoubtingThomas wrote:
A infinite God can do anything he wants, he can simply make us all good and take us all to heaven. Why is he not doing that?


Because God cannot be infinite. It's an invention of man, a myth.

_________________
"Being and nonbeing arise mutually. Thus not to see the unity of self and other is the fear of life, and not to see the unity of being and nonbeing is the fear of death." Alan Watts

"The problem is most religions proceed to try and explain the truth and then insist that you agree with their explanation." Brad Warner


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trusting a finite God
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:26 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:53 am
Posts: 3943
Location: Oregon
Philo Sofee wrote:
It depends on what any finite god is willing to actually do to improve the world as to whether I would go so far as to give my trust....


Well, the Mormon god is pretty good at finding lost keys.

_________________
"Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn’t participate enthusiastically." - Robert Kirby

Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trusting a finite God
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:29 pm 
God

Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:39 pm
Posts: 7217
Philo Sofee wrote:
It depends on what any finite god is willing to actually do to improve the world as to whether I would go so far as to give my trust. If he commanded it I would tell him stick it. He has to earn it, not command it. That means for one he or she will be a god of truth, not through his own special chosen willy nilly human idiots, but HIMSELF. No more middlemen, they are too untrustworthy, as a supposed all knowing (though finite) god would surely know.


I think that in order to choose a belief in a creator/God one sooner or later realizes that pondering on the infinite...and reducing it to the finite...is an impossible task. If I choose to trust in God I have to also trust that I really don't know much at all when...without success...trying to figure out every rhyme or reason for why He might do...or not do...one thing or another.

But I would trust that a creator/God is worth trusting to the extent that I don't believe He would ask/tell me to follow His commandments without good reason for doing so.

Not that I would willingly follow some of them without whining and complaining. Polygamy, for one example.

Fortunately, we have free agency. And fortunately there are many different...at least according to Mormon doctrine, and the New Testament...kingdoms and/or glories that we can inherit. Even withing the Celestial World. Not sure I'm too keen on the top tier of that kingdom.

So yeah, I don't think I'll have to be a polygamist forever. :wink: Whew...

Dynasty building isn't in the cards for me.

Regards,
MG


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trusting a finite God
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:12 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:29 pm
Posts: 3714
Fence Sitter wrote:
What reason would you have to trust an infinite God?

Why is there any reason to assume such a being would place our interest over all others?


I am unfamiliar with a religion which sees God as placing our interest over all others. Sounds a bit warped and egocentric .


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trusting a finite God
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:16 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:29 pm
Posts: 3714
DoubtingThomas wrote:
A infinite God can do anything he wants, he can simply make us all good and take us all to heaven. Why is he not doing that?


Are you sure about that, does extra size make that possible?
I for one doubt it, though I considered it a possibility.
(I am speaking as a relatively traditional Christian believer)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trusting a finite God
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:19 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:29 pm
Posts: 3714
Philo Sofee wrote:
It depends on what any finite god is willing to actually do to improve the world as to whether I would go so far as to give my trust. If he commanded it I would tell him stick it. He has to earn it, not command it. That means for one he or she will be a god of truth, not through his own special chosen willy nilly human idiots, but HIMSELF. No more middlemen, they are too untrustworthy, as a supposed all knowing (though finite) god would surely know.


Kerry, as a Christian believer I agree with you.

I have some doubts that the distinction between finite and infinite in this context is very clear but that is not the center of your observation.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trusting a finite God
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:43 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:29 pm
Posts: 3714
I think if God is our creator, source of our very being it is reasonable to expect God would be interested in our well being. If what I am is a result of Gods creation then what I desire and would be in my true interest would be in harmony with Gods interest.

This would be at best uncertain if by god one meant a highly developed and powerful being from elsewhere.

If one was thinking of an intermediary between us and our creator there may be better reason for trust than with an intergalactic strong man but there could still be problems. Does an intermediary actually belong here? Is it perhaps an interloper.

If my best reason to trust God is that my internal self is from God it might be well to give that internal self respect.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trusting a finite God
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:30 am 
Apostle
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:47 pm
Posts: 794
For virtually all of my conscious life, I have wondered what I am praying to. And the conclusion is that I have no idea. How could we, when "God" is infinite? Always increasing forever means that a finite mind (ours) cannot comprehend infinity. We can apprehend the concept and put it into words, but we cannot comprehend it.

The Mormon "God the Father" with a corporeal body prays to someone. And his Father prays to someone, and before him his God the Grandfather prays to someone. I assume that they all pray to the same someone. They know more about who that is than we can know. But the concept of praying to "Existence In The First Place" (the totality of the mind that Is Existence) seems to cut to the chase (cuts out G t F) and seek communion with Existence itself. I do not expect to meld with the whole mind of "God", ever, because that would loop my finite mind back into the Whole, ending my unique, limited existence. Perhaps this is what is referred to in the scriptures when prophets receive a vision of "all things" and there isn't anything that God has created that they do not see. But then the vision is shut up and they return to themselves. Just a glimpse of what the whole mind of "God" is like, just enough to remember the contrast between that mind and being a finite mortal, is enough to teach my mind what it is that I pray to: It is incomprehensible, but knows me intimately and infinitely beyond the subatomic particles that make up my being. I can apprehend this dichotomy, but I will never comprehend it.

Once I began to hold such a concept for "God", I could never again try and pray to G t F, a la Mormon style. And the Judeo-Christian God the Father, without body, parts or passions, with circumferences everywhere and centers nowhere, etc., actually seems like a first step in approaching a concept of God as Original Cause, Infinite, ergo Incomprensible. And Adam's childish assertion, "I do not believe in such a being, I cannot comprehend it," is the ultimate dumbing down doctrine (which is why, I have little doubt, that the GAs removed that character and interchange from the endowment play).

_________________
A man should never step a foot into the field,
But have his weapons to hand:
He knows not when he may need arms,
Or what menace meet on the road. - Hávamál 38

Man's joy is in Man. - Hávamál 47


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trusting a finite God
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:53 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:49 am
Posts: 8119
Location: Somewhere between bemused and curious.
huckelberry wrote:
Fence Sitter wrote:
What reason would you have to trust an infinite God?

Why is there any reason to assume such a being would place our interest over all others?


I am unfamiliar with a religion which sees God as placing our interest over all others. Sounds a bit warped and egocentric .


I agree that is how it sounds but in Mormonism that is exactly what we teach.

Moses 1:39 wrote:
For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.


Let's assume for a minute such a God does not exist, how does one trust a God who places the interest of others or other things above your own?

For example, let's say I am a biblical Canaanite. Do I trust God?

"Hey God, I am okay with you killing my children because I am not one of your chosen."

Huckleberry wrote:
I think if God is our creator, source of our very being it is reasonable to expect God would be interested in our well being. If what I am is a result of Gods creation then what I desire and would be in my true interest would be in harmony with Gods interest


This is merely defining God's interests as your own. Why is there any reason to believe such a God actually exist? Look around at the universe, why are we to believe that on this small planet, one of 1e+24 that exist, God is any more interested in us than anywhere else. To me that would be egocentric in the extreme.

_________________
"The lives we lead now are not dress rehearsals, they are the only performance we have. Therefore what matters is what we have here, the people we know and and love and the good we can do for the world"
Sean Carroll


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trusting a finite God
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:20 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:29 pm
Posts: 3714
Fence Sitter wrote:
Let's assume for a minute such a God does not exist, how does one trust a God who places the interest of others or other things above your own?

For example, let's say I am a biblical Canaanite. Do I trust God?

"Hey God, I am okay with you killing my children because I am not one of your chosen."

Huckleberry wrote:
I think if God is our creator, source of our very being it is reasonable to expect God would be interested in our well being. If what I am is a result of Gods creation then what I desire and would be in my true interest would be in harmony with Gods interest


This is merely defining God's interests as your own. Why is there any reason to believe such a God actually exist? Look around at the universe, why are we to believe that on this small planet, one of 1e+24 that exist, God is any more interested in us than anywhere else. To me that would be egocentric in the extreme.


Fence sitter, I am puzzled and perhaps not understanding.

I cannot imagine any reason to think God is more concerned with this planet than some others.

The first reason to believe such a God exists is that we exist. That is not a sure proof of anything but I do not see how uncertainty on that points breaks the logic , if God exists,who is our creator then that relationship would link our concern together.

Canaanite? I am uncertain why you interject a Bible problem but at least in terms of the Bible story as I understand it they were not killed because they were not choosen but because of danger they represented. I suppose in actual history the danger may have been more mundane than is pictured in the Biblical view but neither is a simple pointless, not chosen. The Jews were chosen to be a foundation for saving the world.

I do not picture God as arbitrarily placing others above me or me above others, we are all his creation and his concern. (well unless there is no god or one is thinking of some strong man not our creator)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trusting a finite God
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:40 pm 
God

Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 8:38 pm
Posts: 1185
deacon blues wrote:
I can conceive that an infinite God who is always loving and always truthful would be completely trustworthy. Of course, being able to conceive of such a God is not proof of existence. Since my shelf broke I’ve been thinking of what God might be like and exploring possibilities. I seem to have a desire to believe in God. Justifying my belief is something else.

This. Since my shelf broke, I have had to (not know) but assume that there is a greater love there than I have been taught..in this case, I have to trust myself first then someday take a belief and make it real for me. I know..I know...this is sad...but if I lose a trust of any kind of God that might not be the reality of my childhood...I will lose hope in waking up each day. My trials are big and deep..and real. I don't even ask for proof..I just have this hope that God loves each of us and with forgiveness and an extension of growth in time..he will welcome all of us...without the secret names, signs and passwords.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trusting a finite God
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:31 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:04 am
Posts: 4439
Location: Firmly on this earth
candygal wrote:
deacon blues wrote:
I can conceive that an infinite God who is always loving and always truthful would be completely trustworthy. Of course, being able to conceive of such a God is not proof of existence. Since my shelf broke I’ve been thinking of what God might be like and exploring possibilities. I seem to have a desire to believe in God. Justifying my belief is something else.

This. Since my shelf broke, I have had to (not know) but assume that there is a greater love there than I have been taught..in this case, I have to trust myself first then someday take a belief and make it real for me. I know..I know...this is sad...but if I lose a trust of any kind of God that might not be the reality of my childhood...I will lose hope in waking up each day. My trials are big and deep..and real. I don't even ask for proof..I just have this hope that God loves each of us and with forgiveness and an extension of growth in time..he will welcome all of us...without the secret names, signs and passwords.


The way to be loved and find love is to be loving yourself. Whether God does so or not is irrelevant. It's a wonderful way to be.

_________________
"Being and nonbeing arise mutually. Thus not to see the unity of self and other is the fear of life, and not to see the unity of being and nonbeing is the fear of death." Alan Watts

"The problem is most religions proceed to try and explain the truth and then insist that you agree with their explanation." Brad Warner


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Trusting a finite God
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:31 am 
Savior (resurrected)

Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:00 pm
Posts: 965
Furthermore, attribute God's power and authority through the supreme conduit of a prophet, and you further become subject to the finite divine. Reject that, and you open yourself up to the infinite divine. This is one reason why the claim of divine authority is blasphemy.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 33 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Analytics, Bret Ripley, Fence Sitter and 17 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Revival Theme By Brandon Designs By B.Design-Studio © 2007-2008 Brandon
Revival Theme Based off SubLite By Echo © 2007-2008 Echo
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group