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 Post subject: Mormonism and the Matrix
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:21 am 
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The comparison between Mormonism and the Matrix is not unique. It has been done many times. I remember when I had my crisis of faith back in 2003-2005. I felt just like Neo when he was talking to Morpheus. I felt like I had taken the Red pill and wondered if taking the blue pill would have been better. TBM's are mass consumers of the blue pill.

I think that for many of us, Shades is kind of like Morpheus. He has provided us a place like MormonDiscussions.com to discuss Mormonism in a more real framework, welcoming us into the real world.

Here is Morpheus' speech to Neo:

Quote:
Morpheus: I imagine that right now, you're feeling a bit like Alice. Hmm? Tumbling down the rabbit hole?

Neo: You could say that.

Morpheus: I see it in your eyes. You have the look of a man who accepts what he sees because he is expecting to wake up. Ironically, that's not far from the truth. Do you believe in fate, Neo?

Neo: No.

Morpheus: Why not?

Neo: Because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.

Morpheus: I know *exactly* what you mean. Let me tell you why you're here. You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain, but you feel it. You've felt it your entire life, that there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is, but it's there, like a splinter in your mind, driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to me. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Neo: The Matrix.

Morpheus: Do you want to know what it is?

Neo: Yes.

Morpheus: The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work... when you go to church... when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.

Neo: What truth?

Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage. Into a prison that you cannot taste or see or touch. A prison for your mind.

Morpheus: The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.


The last statement that Morpheus makes is key. It perfectly describes apologists and chapel TBMs.

"The Matrix" has always been one of my favorite movies. The first time I saw it, I was surprised at how closely Mormonism related to the description of what the matrix actually was. When you are engulfed in the Mormon culture, you see things through a very narrow lens. In the movie, when people were in the matrix, the camera gave off a green hue. Then, when they went to the real world, everything was clear and the colors were more definite. This was sort of how I felt when my shelf finally broke.

There are those instances when I have gone back to Church, gone through the temple when my daughter got married, etc. where I felt like I was entering the Matrix again for a period, much like Neo, Trinity, and the rest of the gang did.

I would love to hear people's thoughts on this topic. I just find the comparison fascinating.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism and the Matrix
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:28 am 
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I suppose one of the reasons why I didn't resign my membership, although I thought about it seriously after the November policy went into effect, is that there is still a part of me that hopes to be able to change things from the inside. Neo and others were able to manipulate the system once they were aware of what their capabilities within that system actually were.

The positive side of me feels like maybe that can still happen, if that makes sense.

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So you're chasing around a fly and in your world, I'm the idiot?

"Friends don't let friends be Mormon." Sock Puppet, MormonDiscussions.com.

Music is my drug of choice.

"And that is precisely why none of us apologize for holding it to the celestial standard it pretends that it possesses." Kerry, MormonDiscussions.com
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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism and the Matrix
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:40 am 
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What would Mr. Smith represent in this Mormon Matrix scenario, especially in the third film?

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism and the Matrix
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:05 am 
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Matrix. Come on. It isn't fine art worthy of any comparison. What's next. The Walking Dead?


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism and the Matrix
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:45 am 
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Yahoo Bot wrote:
Matrix. Come on. It isn't fine art worthy of any comparison. What's next. The Walking Dead?


Are you referring to Mr. Peterson's CES Letter talk?

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism and the Matrix
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:19 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
What would Mr. Smith represent in this Mormon Matrix scenario, especially in the third film?

- Doc

I don’t know if this is an exact comparison, but I honestly viewed Brigham Young as a Smith type character. He was drunk on power and wanted to basically rule the saints the way he saw fit. He incorporated a lot of his own prejudices that were different from how Joseph Smith envisioned the Church. The big difference was his almost complete negligence of the Relief Society. He felt that men were superior and didn’t recognize the RS as a companion priesthood for the sisters.

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So you're chasing around a fly and in your world, I'm the idiot?

"Friends don't let friends be Mormon." Sock Puppet, MormonDiscussions.com.

Music is my drug of choice.

"And that is precisely why none of us apologize for holding it to the celestial standard it pretends that it possesses." Kerry, MormonDiscussions.com
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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism and the Matrix
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:21 am 
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Jesse Pinkman wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
What would Mr. Smith represent in this Mormon Matrix scenario, especially in the third film?

- Doc

I don’t know if this is an exact comparison, but I honestly viewed Brigham Young as a Smith type character. He was drunk on power and wanted to basically rule the saints the way he saw fit. He incorporated a lot of his own prejudices that were different from how Joseph Smith envisioned the Church. The big difference was his almost complete negligence of the Relief Society. He felt that men were superior and didn’t recognize the RS as a companion priesthood for the sisters.

Who do you envision as a Smith character, and is there something in the 3rd movie in particular that correlates your feelings?

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So you're chasing around a fly and in your world, I'm the idiot?

"Friends don't let friends be Mormon." Sock Puppet, MormonDiscussions.com.

Music is my drug of choice.

"And that is precisely why none of us apologize for holding it to the celestial standard it pretends that it possesses." Kerry, MormonDiscussions.com
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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism and the Matrix
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:23 am 
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Yahoo Bot wrote:
Matrix. Come on. It isn't fine art worthy of any comparison. What's next. The Walking Dead?

It doesn’t have to be fine art to be interesting. I am a huge patron of the arts. I sing opera as well as musical theater. That doesn’t mean that I don’t enjoy top 40 hits as well. :wink:

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So you're chasing around a fly and in your world, I'm the idiot?

"Friends don't let friends be Mormon." Sock Puppet, MormonDiscussions.com.

Music is my drug of choice.

"And that is precisely why none of us apologize for holding it to the celestial standard it pretends that it possesses." Kerry, MormonDiscussions.com
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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism and the Matrix
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:25 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Yahoo Bot wrote:
Matrix. Come on. It isn't fine art worthy of any comparison. What's next. The Walking Dead?


Are you referring to Mr. Peterson's CES Letter talk?

- Doc

Walking Dead? LOL

Actually, the Walking Dead series has some interesting writing and character development.

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So you're chasing around a fly and in your world, I'm the idiot?

"Friends don't let friends be Mormon." Sock Puppet, MormonDiscussions.com.

Music is my drug of choice.

"And that is precisely why none of us apologize for holding it to the celestial standard it pretends that it possesses." Kerry, MormonDiscussions.com
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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism and the Matrix
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:53 am 
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Image

I want one of these

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism and the Matrix
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:55 pm 
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Craig Paxton wrote:
Image

I want one of these

Me too! :biggrin:

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So you're chasing around a fly and in your world, I'm the idiot?

"Friends don't let friends be Mormon." Sock Puppet, MormonDiscussions.com.

Music is my drug of choice.

"And that is precisely why none of us apologize for holding it to the celestial standard it pretends that it possesses." Kerry, MormonDiscussions.com
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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism and the Matrix
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:54 pm 
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I think the Matrix is a good comparison, not only of Mormonism, but religion in general.

The last comments by Morpheus was pretty well a trade mark conversation and theme on the NOM and StayLDS boards for years and how to interact with family members. Probably still is, I just don't participate there anymore.

Quote:
Morpheus: The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism and the Matrix
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:43 pm 
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cwald wrote:
I think the Matrix is a good comparison, not only of Mormonism, but religion in general.

The last comments by Morpheus was pretty well a trade mark conversation and theme on the NOM and StayLDS boards for years and how to interact with family members. Probably still is, I just don't participate there anymore.

Quote:
Morpheus: The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.


Yes! Exactly! They are all great people but are not ready to see things from a “real world” perspective.

I think you’re also right regarding comparing the Matrix with organized religion in general. It really does paint a different picture on how you view things.

Thanks for your thoughts!

I’m also interested in hearing views on Cam’s question regarding the Smith character. I compared him to Brigham Young. Does anyone come to mind as far as comparison that you can think of?

In some of your other posts, you indicated that you had a very hard time with Church members as you were exiting. Were you made to feel like “the enemy”? I ask because I fought this, even within my own family. It is a very distressing feeling. But trying to take the Blue Pill again after already swallowing the red is an impossible task no matter how hard you try, or sometimes wish for it.

ETA—I don’t wish for it anymore, just for the record.

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So you're chasing around a fly and in your world, I'm the idiot?

"Friends don't let friends be Mormon." Sock Puppet, MormonDiscussions.com.

Music is my drug of choice.

"And that is precisely why none of us apologize for holding it to the celestial standard it pretends that it possesses." Kerry, MormonDiscussions.com
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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism and the Matrix
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:55 pm 
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Jesse Pinkman wrote:
In some of your other posts, you indicated that you had a very hard time with Church members as you were exiting. Were you made to feel like “the enemy”?

I think that would be an understatement. I would call it more like I was treated like a traitor. Enemies are often treated with some dignity and respect. Traitors are generally hung at the gallows. The vitriol and venom I witnessed from family was quite astounding.

If Mormons, especially my family members, do not want the LDS church to be called a cult, they really need to stop acting like one.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism and the Matrix
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:00 pm 
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cwald wrote:
Jesse Pinkman wrote:
In some of your other posts, you indicated that you had a very hard time with Church members as you were exiting. Were you made to feel like “the enemy”?

I think that would be an understatement. I would call it more like I was treated like a traitor. Enemies are often treated with some dignity and respect. Traitors are generally hung at the gallows. The vitriol and venom I witnessed from family was quite astounding.

If Mormons, especially my family members, do not want the LDS church to be called a cult, they really need to stop acting like one.

I’m really sorry that you went through that. It is awful to feel like your family is against you. I went through this somewhat myself. It doesn’t sound like I experienced it to the degree that you did, though.

My parents have always been very accepting of me no matter what. My ex-husband was the person who I received the most hostility from. That was when he was massively TBM. Ironically, I go to Church more than he does now. He has come out as being gay and is completely inactive at Church.

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"Friends don't let friends be Mormon." Sock Puppet, MormonDiscussions.com.

Music is my drug of choice.

"And that is precisely why none of us apologize for holding it to the celestial standard it pretends that it possesses." Kerry, MormonDiscussions.com
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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism and the Matrix
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:08 am 
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My son is kind of like me. He has been “unplugged” but has chosen to enter the Matrix on Sunday’s with his cousins. For him, Church is a good thing. It gives him community support which has helped him tremendously during the divorce.

I think that many NOMs are like Neo and Trinity.

I would still be interested in further thoughts from folks on Cam’s question. Who do you feel in the Church fits the Agent Smith character? My choice was Brigham Young. I suppose that Joseph Smith would be the Architect from the second movie.

Thoughts?

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So you're chasing around a fly and in your world, I'm the idiot?

"Friends don't let friends be Mormon." Sock Puppet, MormonDiscussions.com.

Music is my drug of choice.

"And that is precisely why none of us apologize for holding it to the celestial standard it pretends that it possesses." Kerry, MormonDiscussions.com
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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism and the Matrix
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:52 am 
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Bumping for Cam. Would love to hear his thoughts on who in Mormonism he feels is the Agent Smith character. Anyone else may also venture a thought on this.

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"Friends don't let friends be Mormon." Sock Puppet, MormonDiscussions.com.

Music is my drug of choice.

"And that is precisely why none of us apologize for holding it to the celestial standard it pretends that it possesses." Kerry, MormonDiscussions.com
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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism and the Matrix
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:54 am 
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Philo would make a good Oracle. :wink:

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So you're chasing around a fly and in your world, I'm the idiot?

"Friends don't let friends be Mormon." Sock Puppet, MormonDiscussions.com.

Music is my drug of choice.

"And that is precisely why none of us apologize for holding it to the celestial standard it pretends that it possesses." Kerry, MormonDiscussions.com
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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism and the Matrix
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:36 am 
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Jesse Pinkman wrote:
Bumping for Cam. Would love to hear his thoughts on who in Mormonism he feels is the Agent Smith character. Anyone else may also venture a thought on this.


Well, if we're gearing the Matrix to be representative of the Mormon church and its culture we have to bear in mind the characters themselves are symbolic of other things.

First thing first, we have to remember that the people in the Matrix, the Blue Pillers (regular Mormons) as it were, are people whose minds are enslaved by their overlords (The COB headed up by the 15) and even though they have this nagging notion that everything isn't well in Zion they go along with it.

But that's not good enough, because the system itself isn't perfected to the point to keep everyone enslaved. It's flawed. It's not real. It's a lie. It uses its slaves for resources. And the human mind can't accept that on some level.

That's why the overlords created Agent Smith(s) (The SCMC). The Agents ferret out, like the Stasi, those who are 'problematic', often times before they themselves are even aware of red pill reality, and disposes of them. Agent Smith infects others after being threatened by Neo (in this case Neo represents the Red Pill of knowledge, or the Apple as it were <-That's why the pill is the color is red.) through the use of correlation. The SCMC is clearly out of control, but because it's been created and correlation has become a virus it's relentless even to the detriment of the system itself.

So basically Neo, knowledge, and Agent Smith, correlation, are duking it out for control over the matrix. It's inevitable that knowledge will win because Knowledge is The One. Smith can't win. It's an impossibility. That's why despite its best efforts to control the Blue Pilled Mormons through Agent Smith (who will fail), the overlords themselves, eventually have to strike a deal with Knowledge and reach a new dawn of cooperation. The cycle then repeats as a new iteration of the Matrix is created, the Blue Pillers are still under control, a new Neo arises, another set of Agents are created, and then eventually a new compromise is created.

You saw this in early Mormonism, then in 19th Utah Mormonism, then a few iterations in 20th century Mormonism, and again now as we observe the SCMC duke it out with Knowledge (the Internet this time) which will result in a new Mormonism. It's cyclical.

And at the end of the day the overlords still exist, the Matrix still exists, and people are still enslaved. Because it's our nature to control, capitulate, resist, and reset.

They only way to 'win' is to unplug and opt out. But even then do you really win? It's a hard life to unplug yourself from the system. Sure, you're 'free', but are you really ever free? You just swap one system for another. You will always play your part whether or not you're plugged in.

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism and the Matrix
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:42 am 
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Jesse Pinkman wrote:
Bumping for Cam. Would love to hear his thoughts on who in Mormonism he feels is the Agent Smith character. Anyone else may also venture a thought on this.

Denver Snuffer?

The metaphor of the Matrix only goes so far. The feeling that the masses are blinded to the truth and are slaves to the system is hardly unique to ex-mos. The element that makes it particularly powerful to us is that "the truth" isn't good news--Morpheus isn't offering a way to be with your family and with God for eternity. He's offering the truth--nothing more.

But, the universe in the Matrix--especially in the sequels--is pretty elaborate and is full of elements that don't really fit for a metaphor of escaping from religion. The architect. The oracle. Agent Smith gone rogue. The keymaker. The Merovingian. Etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism and the Matrix
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:43 am 
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Matrix. Come on. It isn't fine art worthy of any comparison. What's next. The Walking Dead?


Good point, the fine art that adorns the hallways of our chapels clearly shows what a bad comparison the opening post makes.

:wink:

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