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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:06 pm 
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JLHPROF wrote:
It's a basic belief well established in Mormon teachings that in the end at the return of Christ there will be a very small group living his gospel.


It's a common doctrine of most new religions. They all start small and need to promote ideas of the select few.

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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:02 pm 
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malkie wrote:
Wasn't the church supposed to be the stone cut out of the mountain without hands, that would swallow up the whole earth?

I'm pretty sure that I was taught that eventually everybody on earth, except for the extremely wicked, would be Mormon.

That's after the earth gets cleansed during the thousand years of the earth's sabbath. And after that time men begin AGAIN to deny their God. Which means it is the denial of God that gets the earth whacked.

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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:17 pm 
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tana wrote:
Nightlion wrote:
Those 99% are not ready. This is why creation keeps on going and going. If everyone was saved it would be over. Imagine that! I think Jesus enjoys taking a break and forgetting all and mixing with us common folks. You can see this in nature. Of all the canines only a few get to be Pomeranians. The rest just have to wait until they are cool enough. Us few have probably been through infinite incarnations. You guys are so impatient.


This is the first time I have heard you suggest punishment is temporary, that eventually everybody gets their god ticket punched. Coming up with good theory on new-agey/reincarnation/old soul-young soul concepts is easier said than done. Eternal systems and entity timelines must surely be mutually exclusive.

Eternity with God is 'one eternal round' of a course. It is not an unending linear progression. Damnation is to not continue. This is where the opt out clause can be used. Back into the potter's grind where you lose your independent appointment and return to the light of truth. There you might come back in a new appointed sphere of existence in the next generation of the Heavens and the earth. The Devil and his 1/3rd hosts are FORCED to return to the Light of Truth when it's their time. If you are good with less than the top of celestial glory or even with telestial or terrestrial glory okay. I would suppose you can always change your mind.

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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:24 pm 
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Not to worry though folks. This seeming 'few' elitism is fake news. See, all will get to hear the true gospel in the hereafter. Right.

So, lets see... The time had come, we shouted for joy, the earth was ready. The all important phase of getting our bodies so's we can experience experiences. Because one can't experience experiences quite the same with just a mere spirit body. This is also the very important testing/sifting/sorting phase. Testing in the flesh, with all it's associated mores. The time to find the kings and king-ettes by offering the gospel and seeing who rises up. Right.

Only though, 99.9999% don't get the chance and have to do this back in the spirit phase, where experiencing experiences isn't quite the same. I think maybe god needs a new chief strategist.

As an aside. I wonder why it was so important for J. Smith to fill up his polygamy bus here on earth when everyone else has to do it on the other side? Also too, he's gonna need a hec of a lot more brood mares than 35 if he's gonna sire 150 B.


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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:03 pm 
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JLHPROF wrote:
It's a basic belief well established in Mormon teachings that in the end at the return of Christ there will be a very small group living his gospel.



Is that how you view Matt 25? Or John 13:35?

So sad.

Not to mention you throw your supposed prophets under the bus by contradicting the stone cut from the mountain filling the Earth prophecy...

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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:33 am 
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JLHPROF wrote:
Ok, so you don't believe in Mormonism. And you find the arrogance of a small percentage of the earths population being chosen annoying. That's fine.

I don't see how those beliefs are a "last line" when falling back. It's a basic belief well established in Mormon teachings that in the end at the return of Christ there will be a very small group living his gospel.


It is deeply embedded as a fallback line. People leaving the church? Oh, that's the lost souls falling into the river, showing up in the great and spacious building. Lone Mormon at your school? You're the chosen generation. Mormonism looks ridiculous to outsiders? Your faith in the one true church makes you one of the elect.

It is no surprise that the chosen few teachings were weaved throughout early church teachings, indeed it was part of the story that the end was nigh, that the second coming was imminent and the Saints needed to prepare. Of course, the group was always destined to be small, that's the only theological way to cope with the smallness of the membership.


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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:10 pm 
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Meadowchik wrote:
JLHPROF wrote:
Ok, so you don't believe in Mormonism. And you find the arrogance of a small percentage of the earths population being chosen annoying. That's fine.

I don't see how those beliefs are a "last line" when falling back. It's a basic belief well established in Mormon teachings that in the end at the return of Christ there will be a very small group living his gospel.


It is deeply embedded as a fallback line. People leaving the church? Oh, that's the lost souls falling into the river, showing up in the great and spacious building. Lone Mormon at your school? You're the chosen generation. Mormonism looks ridiculous to outsiders? Your faith in the one true church makes you one of the elect.

It is no surprise that the chosen few teachings were weaved throughout early church teachings, indeed it was part of the story that the end was nigh, that the second coming was imminent and the Saints needed to prepare. Of course, the group was always destined to be small, that's the only theological way to cope with the smallness of the membership.

Well said!


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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:11 pm 
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tana wrote:
Not to worry though folks. This seeming 'few' elitism is fake news. See, all will get to hear the true gospel in the hereafter. Right.

So, lets see... The time had come, we shouted for joy, the earth was ready. The all important phase of getting our bodies so's we can experience experiences. Because one can't experience experiences quite the same with just a mere spirit body. This is also the very important testing/sifting/sorting phase. Testing in the flesh, with all it's associated mores. The time to find the kings and king-ettes by offering the gospel and seeing who rises up. Right.

Only though, 99.9999% don't get the chance and have to do this back in the spirit phase, where experiencing experiences isn't quite the same. I think maybe god needs a new chief strategist.

As an aside. I wonder why it was so important for J. Smith to fill up his polygamy bus here on earth when everyone else has to do it on the other side? Also too, he's gonna need a hec of a lot more brood mares than 35 if he's gonna sire 150 B.


As a little clarification. How long, and to how many has the 'one true gospel' been available according to a believer based timeline? Let's see, Adam had the gospel for about ten minutes before god got mad and drowned everyone. Noah had the gospel for only about ten minutes, because somehow a bad seed slipped past security, got onto the ark.... and that was that. Moses had some form of gospel that has no resemblance to what exists today. But, he had it for a good ten - fifteen minutes. J. Christ restored it again, only to lose it to near immediate apostasy. Then, of course, the final restoration. And using N.L. theory, another instant fail.

So then, using just common sense, which is more likely, God created 150 B. souls and a plan of salvation, but only made it available to something like .000000001% of them, figuring he'd get it to the rest of them later - after they're dead, or J. Smith and co. made it all up?


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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:40 pm 
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tana wrote:
Not to worry though folks. This seeming 'few' elitism is fake news. See, all will get to hear the true gospel in the hereafter. Right.

So, lets see... The time had come, we shouted for joy, the earth was ready. The all important phase of getting our bodies so's we can experience experiences. Because one can't experience experiences quite the same with just a mere spirit body. This is also the very important testing/sifting/sorting phase. Testing in the flesh, with all it's associated mores. The time to find the kings and king-ettes by offering the gospel and seeing who rises up. Right.

Only though, 99.9999% don't get the chance and have to do this back in the spirit phase, where experiencing experiences isn't quite the same. I think maybe god needs a new chief strategist.

As an aside. I wonder why it was so important for J. Smith to fill up his polygamy bus here on earth when everyone else has to do it on the other side? Also too, he's gonna need a hec of a lot more brood mares than 35 if he's gonna sire 150 B.

Let's figure that the earth IS 4 billion years old. I am not certain how long a spirit conception might take to complete a new spirit body, but let's suppose it might be four month of our time. And if 'spiritual pregnancy' is no big whoop for the woman and she can bring forth three per year, that would be 12 billion spirit bodies in four billion years.

From where do you get 150 billion? If there were 5 billion (some think 9 billion) before the flood and there has been....? I dunno....10 billion since?

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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:12 pm 
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Nightlion wrote:
tana wrote:
Not to worry though folks. This seeming 'few' elitism is fake news. See, all will get to hear the true gospel in the hereafter. Right.

So, lets see... The time had come, we shouted for joy, the earth was ready. The all important phase of getting our bodies so's we can experience experiences. Because one can't experience experiences quite the same with just a mere spirit body. This is also the very important testing/sifting/sorting phase. Testing in the flesh, with all it's associated mores. The time to find the kings and king-ettes by offering the gospel and seeing who rises up. Right.

Only though, 99.9999% don't get the chance and have to do this back in the spirit phase, where experiencing experiences isn't quite the same. I think maybe god needs a new chief strategist.

As an aside. I wonder why it was so important for J. Smith to fill up his polygamy bus here on earth when everyone else has to do it on the other side? Also too, he's gonna need a hec of a lot more brood mares than 35 if he's gonna sire 150 B.

Let's figure that the earth IS 4 billion years old. I am not certain how long a spirit conception might take to complete a new spirit body, but let's suppose it might be four month of our time. And if 'spiritual pregnancy' is no big whoop for the woman and she can bring forth three per year, that would be 12 billion spirit bodies in four billion years.

From where do you get 150 billion? If there were 5 billion (some think 9 billion) before the flood and there has been....? I dunno....10 billion since?



This site says 100 B. The other 50 B. then is the 1/3 bad guys cast out of heaven.


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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:43 pm 
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tana wrote:


This site says 100 B. The other 50 B. then is the 1/3 bad guys cast out of heaven.


If someone might bother to READ my game changer New Mormon Theology paper.....linked below.....then I would not have to school so many about the wonders of eternity. The one third hosts that got cast down with satan were NEVER given spirit bodies. They refused and for more than one reason. They remain only ORGANIZED INTELLIGENCE ASSIGNED TO THE INDEPENDENT SPHERE OF HUMAN. That is why so many UFO sightings are 'balls of light' which is their primary manifestation in our world. They are a bit of light and truth given independence by the command of the Eternal Father. That is how God is the Father of lights and the Eternal Father of all creation. By the word of his power he gave independent life to all spirits, not just humans. That makes him The Eternal Father. And by the way all three of the godhead are in concert The Eternal Father or the Eternal God as the Book of Mormon calls Jesus.

You would think that the stinkers in this forum would want further light and knowledge. But NOOOOOOO!

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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:46 pm 
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Nightlion wrote:
If someone might bother to READ my game changer New Mormon Theology paper

To be honest Nightlion I rarely bother to read just one sentence of what you write here


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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:28 pm 
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sunstoned wrote:
The fact is that members of the LDS church, past and present make up only a minuscule percentage of the earths population. These numbers confirm to me that the LDS church is a failed proposition. There is no rock rolling forward that will fill up the earth. In fact, the most current figures say the church is shrinking. The logical conclusion for me is that god is a poor manager. He has tried twice to establish is kingdom, and came up short both times.


I see no reason to believe that size matters in regards to the church. I think that God is BIGGER than that...with a LOT more going on than JUST a church. Even if we look at the LDS Church as being what it purports to be there is absolutely no reason to think that the rest of humanity is not included in God's plan. There is a New Testament scripture that says:

Quote:
A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=KJV

I think the LDS Church has and will continue to play an important part in this regard as societies become more secularized. The LDS Church will stand firm while others fall and/or conform to the ways of the 'natural man' and will continue to provide a light in an ever darkening world.

The constant diatribe/argument against the LDS Church being the 'true' church because of its size is rather silly, IMO. I've never thought that this was a good argument against the church. And LDS doctrine supports this view.

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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:02 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
sunstoned wrote:
The fact is that members of the LDS church, past and present make up only a minuscule percentage of the earths population. These numbers confirm to me that the LDS church is a failed proposition. There is no rock rolling forward that will fill up the earth. In fact, the most current figures say the church is shrinking. The logical conclusion for me is that god is a poor manager. He has tried twice to establish is kingdom, and came up short both times.


I see no reason to believe that size matters in regards to the church. I think that God is BIGGER than that...with a LOT more going on than JUST a church. Even if we look at the LDS Church as being what it purports to be there is absolutely no reason to think that the rest of humanity is not included in God's plan. There is a New Testament scripture that says:

Quote:
A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=KJV

I think the LDS Church has and will continue to play an important part in this regard as societies become more secularized. The LDS Church will stand firm while others fall and/or conform to the ways of the 'natural man' and will continue to provide a light in an ever darkening world.

The constant diatribe/argument against the LDS Church being the 'true' church because of its size is rather silly, IMO. I've never thought that this was a good argument against the church. And LDS doctrine supports this view.

Regards,
MG


Elitism is contrary to Love Thy Neighbor. Mormonism is a pharasaical system trying to cover its sins with promises of heaven.


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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:52 am 
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DoubtingThomas wrote:
Nightlion wrote:
If someone might bother to READ my game changer New Mormon Theology paper

To be honest Nightlion I rarely bother to read just one sentence of what you write here

You better get that devil inside monkey off your back.
That dread you feel inside is it.

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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:46 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
I think the LDS Church has and will continue to play an important part in this regard as societies become more secularized. The LDS Church will stand firm while others fall and/or conform to the ways of the 'natural man' and will continue to provide a light in an ever darkening world.


Like the church did with polygamy and the priesthood ban. :lol:

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The constant diatribe/argument against the LDS Church being the 'true' church because of its size is rather silly, IMO. I've never thought that this was a good argument against the church. And LDS doctrine supports this view.


We certainly don't need to make this argument to prove the church is not true, but it does have problems with why the LDS God has so little support throughout history. Makes the whole idea of why we come here, other then to supposedly get a body, pointless since most never here about the church.

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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:56 pm 
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LDS church actions supports the view that the size of the church matters. The church knows that there are not nearly 16,000,000 people in the world who actually self define as Mormons yet it keeps announcing membership numbers as if there were.

The only reason people on this thread are defending the "size doesn't matter" when it comes to the church is because the church growth has slowed down dramatically. If business were still booming none of them would be arguing this. Instead we would be hearing how the scriptures and doctrine prove that the church will go forth and fill the earth.

The awesome upside to belief is you can defend any side you want by proof texting.

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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:58 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
in an ever darkening world.


What in our world is ever darkening? I know this idea has been promoted by the church from the start and most members just believe it and find ways to look at the world as getting more wicked, but where? My parents grew up during WW2. Violence was all over the world. All the young men were being called to war. The Nazi's were a real threat to take over the world. The 1800's was also a violent time, with a lot of disease killing people as well. Our world today has so much less violence, especially in the developed world. Violence and crime has been going down for many decades. The only thing Mormons can really point to is their fixation on sex, and people having sex outside of marriage, although in reality people have been doing that for as long as people have existed. It was just less public then today.

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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:56 pm 
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Themis wrote:
What in our world is ever darkening? I know this idea has been promoted by the church from the start and most members just believe it and find ways to look at the world as getting more wicked, but where? My parents grew up during WW2. Violence was all over the world. All the young men were being called to war. The Nazi's were a real threat to take over the world. The 1800's was also a violent time, with a lot of disease killing people as well. Our world today has so much less violence, especially in the developed world. Violence and crime has been going down for many decades. The only thing Mormons can really point to is their fixation on sex, and people having sex outside of marriage, although in reality people have been doing that for as long as people have existed. It was just less public then today.


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The world is getting better in pretty much every way.

The chart below from Our World in Data illustrates global living conditions on every variable continues to improve greatly since 1820. It’s getting better. All of it. Sure, there have been challenges along the way (looking at you, WWI and WWII) but on a long enough line, the world continues to be a better place to live.

The problem is most people don’t believe it is and with the media and social media ramming negative news down our throats confirmation bias kicks in. Negative news sells and we are psychologically drawn to it.

https://www.stedavies.com/world-getting-better/

Anybody promoting that “the world is ever darkening” is suffering confirmation bias.

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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:59 pm 
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Themis wrote:
Makes the whole idea of why we come here, other then to supposedly get a body, pointless since most never here about the church.


I think I've already expressed myself a number of times as to why I don't think it is necessary and/or a given to conclude...as apparently you have(?)...that everyone should receive the opportunity to "hear about the church" while living on this earth. As I said, God is BIGGER than that in the over all scope/purposes of His plan for mankind...as groups, and as individuals.

Regards,
MG


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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:03 pm 
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Fence Sitter wrote:

The only reason people on this thread are defending the "size doesn't matter" when it comes to the church is because the church growth has slowed down dramatically.


If you are referring to me here...then what you're saying doesn't express what I actually think.

Regards,
MG


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