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 Post subject: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:05 pm 
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This post was intended to be a response for another thread, but then I couldn't re-locate said thread.

Morm's will always have as a last line defense offense, (iveness) when they fall back to the keep, of - Many called, few chosen. 'I don't care that the church is shrinking, we are the elite, it's all in gods plan'... Right. How arrogant and annoying. Everyone's fav. board prophet N.L. has played it to it's extreme with his church of one. Right.

Google says 100 billion (est.) humans have lived on this planet. Couple that with the cast out pre-earth hooligans.... 150 billion souls. And your little band of Brighamites are the only chosen few. Right.


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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:07 pm 
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Ok, so you don't believe in Mormonism. And you find the arrogance of a small percentage of the earths population being chosen annoying. That's fine.

I don't see how those beliefs are a "last line" when falling back. It's a basic belief well established in Mormon teachings that in the end at the return of Christ there will be a very small group living his gospel.

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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:11 pm 
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JLHPROF wrote:
It's a basic belief well established in Mormon teachings that in the end at the return of Christ there will be a very small group living his gospel.


And you believe you will be one of those I assume?


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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:51 pm 
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JLHPROF wrote:
Ok, so you don't believe in Mormonism.
And you find the arrogance of a small percentage of the earths population being chosen annoying. That's fine.

I don't see how those beliefs are a "last line" when falling back.
It's a basic belief well established in Mormon teachings that in the end at the return of Christ there will be a very small group living his gospel.


Ah well, I was mostly just annoyed at N.L.'s latest line of bull___, in another thread, and took it out on Morms.

Anyway, since you brought it up, :confused: Yeah I do think it's arrogant to consider yourselves the chosen few. And it does seem like a bit of a last line defense, when confronted with insurmountable evidence eviscerating your cause, to resort to citing a self promoting scripture that declares your god the proper one and he's only taking a couple.


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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:57 pm 
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JLHPROF wrote:
It's a basic belief well established in Mormon teachings that in the end at the return of Christ there will be a very small group living his gospel.

Could you please flesh this out a bit, provide a few details of these prophecies?

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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:45 pm 
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JLHPROF wrote:
I don't see how those beliefs are a "last line" when falling back. It's a basic belief well established in Mormon teachings that in the end at the return of Christ there will be a very small group living his gospel.

Only the elite invested in Bernie Madoff. They were very sure of themselves and their choice. They were smarter than the masses. Until they weren’t.

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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:24 am 
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The fact is that members of the LDS church, past and present make up only a minuscule percentage of the earths population. These numbers confirm to me that the LDS church is a failed proposition. There is no rock rolling forward that will fill up the earth. In fact, the most current figures say the church is shrinking. The logical conclusion for me is that god is a poor manager. He has tried twice to establish is kingdom, and came up short both times.


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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:04 am 
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I guess I am inspired enough to snuff out this bunk. Was wondering who the red people were.

Okay, pal. The Lord has created worlds without number. Let's say that is only ten billion. And let's imagine that only people referred to in scripture as true saints and prophets get saved. So......ten billion times possibly only a couple of million. That's if the City of Enoch and the Lost Ten Tribes are not counted. If counted there might be ten millions.

So that's 20,000,000,000,000,000,000* if only counting a couple of million.
And its 100,000,000,000,000,000,000* if we include the other two camps.

Now, of all those saved, not all will be exalted to the continuation of the seeds. Probably only a enough to continue 10 billion new worlds. That would require 20 billion Adam and Eves respectively.

The way the world conducts itself with a devil may care attitude that utterly ignores the gospel and would never forsake the world for an acceptable sacrifice to get in with Christ and God proves true what Jesus said about 'few there be that find it'.

You, Tana, could not care less. So what's the problem. Why shout about being left behind. You do not love God. So just forget about it.

*Check my math.

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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:51 am 
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Years ago on the old FAIR board, there was a poster who was knowledgeable about the subject of organizational psychology. Her contention was that all new organizations give their product hype to establish a demand for it. Some might use slogans such as "new and improved", "It's the real thing", "Breakfast of Champions, or even "Snap, Crackle, Pop".

So it should come as no surprise if the early Mormons came up with superlatives such as their book being truer or their people being more righteous than anyone else.

Just be glad they did not declare themselves to be "finger licking good".

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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:03 pm 
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Nightlion wrote:
I guess I am inspired enough to snuff out this bunk. Was wondering who the red people were.

Okay, pal. The Lord has created worlds without number. Let's say that is only ten billion. And let's imagine that only people referred to in scripture as true saints and prophets get saved. So......ten billion times possibly only a couple of million. That's if the City of Enoch and the Lost Ten Tribes are not counted. If counted there might be ten millions.

So that's 20,000,000,000,000,000,000* if only counting a couple of million.
And its 100,000,000,000,000,000,000* if we include the other two camps.

Now, of all those saved, not all will be exalted to the continuation of the seeds. Probably only a enough to continue 10 billion new worlds. That would require 20 billion Adam and Eves respectively.

The way the world conducts itself with a devil may care attitude that utterly ignores the gospel and would never forsake the world for an acceptable sacrifice to get in with Christ and God proves true what Jesus said about 'few there be that find it'.

You, Tana, could not care less. So what's the problem. Why shout about being left behind. You do not love God. So just forget about it.

*Check my math.


Yeah well, you aren't addressing the issue of 'arrogance'. You are just increasing the numbers. The ratios remain the same. Most are culls, you and your few (relatively speaking) are the chosen elite. Because it says somewhere in your self witnessing holy scrolls that few will be selected, you now have licence to ignore facts and just plain common sense. Common sense says, the holy scroll that declares 'few are chosen', is more likely to have been written by men intent on manipulation - and less likely to be the cosmology that 99.99999999999% of souls are culls.


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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:09 pm 
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It's just Cult 101. Standard stuff. Like getting your followers' money and shtupping their women.

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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:16 pm 
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sunstoned wrote:
The fact is that members of the LDS church, past and present make up only a minuscule percentage of the earths population. These numbers confirm to me that the LDS church is a failed proposition. There is no rock rolling forward that will fill up the earth. In fact, the most current figures say the church is shrinking. The logical conclusion for me is that god is a poor manager. He has tried twice to establish is kingdom, and came up short both times.


Exactly. And the idea that a Supreme Being would be such a bumbling bungler as to have to work through backwoods psychics, misidentified papyri and banging teenagers in order to save humanity...sounds like a helluva elaborate joke, not a basis for understanding the world or for living. In fact, it sets people up to be exploited in a thousand ways and that's exactly what we see with the white collar crime here in Utah.

Every group starts out small and is small as it's dying, so the small size is evidence of exactly nothing. When the numbers are increasing, the church is true, if the numbers are decreasing, the church is true. Cult "thinking".

There is real evidence available for evaluating the claims of cult leaders. Treat their paranormal claims as paranormal claims, don't be influenced by faith elements that always involve special pleading. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:18 pm 
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RockSlider wrote:
JLHPROF wrote:
It's a basic belief well established in Mormon teachings that in the end at the return of Christ there will be a very small group living his gospel.


And you believe you will be one of those I assume?


Hope, not believe. I'm nothing special. But I am making the attempt.

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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:39 pm 
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JLHPROF wrote:
Hope, not believe. I'm nothing special. But I am making the attempt.


It is hard for me to believe in the few saved ones claim Mormonism makes (although what Mormonism actually claims can be slippery, so feel free to deny if you like) Anyway, if one believes in the Mormon god that created billions of children, would he want to impose such harsh conditions on them? We apparently are here, according to Mormonism, to find our way in the dark, basing our faith in what incredibly fallible human leaders tell us and on a book that has no real world proof. We are supposed to believe in what Joseph Smith said, even though he contradicted himself or changed his story many times, seemingly adding new facets to the story in order to bolster his authority along the way. He used god to justify his fooling around and created many secret societies seemingly out of paranoia. Is that fair that we need to believe in this nonsense in order to make it to where god is? It seems it is the definition of unfair.

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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:55 pm 
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tana wrote:
Nightlion wrote:
I guess I am inspired enough to snuff out this bunk. Was wondering who the red people were.

Okay, pal. The Lord has created worlds without number. Let's say that is only ten billion. And let's imagine that only people referred to in scripture as true saints and prophets get saved. So......ten billion times possibly only a couple of million. That's if the City of Enoch and the Lost Ten Tribes are not counted. If counted there might be ten millions.

So that's 20,000,000,000,000,000,000* if only counting a couple of million.
And its 100,000,000,000,000,000,000* if we include the other two camps.

Now, of all those saved, not all will be exalted to the continuation of the seeds. Probably only a enough to continue 10 billion new worlds. That would require 20 billion Adam and Eves respectively.

The way the world conducts itself with a devil may care attitude that utterly ignores the gospel and would never forsake the world for an acceptable sacrifice to get in with Christ and God proves true what Jesus said about 'few there be that find it'.

You, Tana, could not care less. So what's the problem. Why shout about being left behind. You do not love God. So just forget about it.

*Check my math.


Yeah well, you aren't addressing the issue of 'arrogance'. You are just increasing the numbers. The ratios remain the same. Most are culls, you and your few (relatively speaking) are the chosen elite. Because it says somewhere in your self witnessing holy scrolls that few will be selected, you now have license to ignore facts and just plain common sense. Common sense says, the holy scroll that declares 'few are chosen', is more likely to have been written by men intent on manipulation - and less likely to be the cosmology that 99.99999999999% of souls are culls.

Those 99% are not ready. This is why creation keeps on going and going. If everyone was saved it would be over. Imagine that! I think Jesus enjoys taking a break and forgetting all and mixing with us common folks. You can see this in nature. Of all the canines only a few get to be Pomeranians. The rest just have to wait until they are cool enough. Us few have probably been through infinite incarnations. You guys are so impatient.

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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:20 pm 
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Nightlion wrote:
Those 99% are not ready. This is why creation keeps on going and going. If everyone was saved it would be over. Imagine that! I think Jesus enjoys taking a break and forgetting all and mixing with us common folks. You can see this in nature. Of all the canines only a few get to be Pomeranians. The rest just have to wait until they are cool enough. Us few have probably been through infinite incarnations. You guys are so impatient.


This is the first time I have heard you suggest punishment is temporary, that eventually everybody gets their god ticket punched. Coming up with good theory on new-agey/reincarnation/old soul-young soul concepts is easier said than done. Eternal systems and entity timelines must surely be mutually exclusive.


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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:04 pm 
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JLHPROF wrote:
Hope, not believe. I'm nothing special. But I am making the attempt.


Mormonism and their works for exaltation. What works do you think are most important in your attempts?


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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:20 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
It's just Cult 101. Standard stuff. Like getting your followers' money and shtupping their women.


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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:55 pm 
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Wasn't the church supposed to be the stone cut out of the mountain without hands, that would swallow up the whole earth?

I'm pretty sure that I was taught that eventually everybody on earth, except for the extremely wicked, would be Mormon.

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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:19 pm 
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malkie wrote:
Wasn't the church supposed to be the stone cut out of the mountain without hands, that would swallow up the whole earth?

I'm pretty sure that I was taught that eventually everybody on earth, except for the extremely wicked, would be Mormon.


A pretty good article just popped up in my feed dealing with this.

https://newrepublic.com/article/146589/mormonisms-crisis-faith

Quote:
Most mainstream Christians understand this story in eschatological terms, the Kingdom of God referring to the new world order that will be instituted and presided over by Jesus Christ following his Second Coming. But Mormons have taken the Kingdom of God, in this context, to mean The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints—the Mormon Church itself. In Mormon circles, in fact, “stone cut without hands” has become shorthand for the church and the gospel it preaches.

That world-conquering confidence has long been the beating heart of the Mormon Church. To Mormons, the breakneck speed with which the church has grown from just six members at its founding in 1830 to more than 15 million in 2017 represents Daniel’s prophecy fulfilled. But a recent controversy surrounding a New York Times obituary of former church president Thomas S. Monson shows how wobbly that confidence has become, as Mormonism struggles to adapt to a changing world that, in a reversal of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, threatens to overwhelm it.
...
The Mormon church’s 1.7 percent annual growth is still quite good in these dire times for religion. But it’s less good when you consider that the church maintains a massive force of more than 70,000 full-time proselytizing missionaries worldwide, and barely manages to tread water.

...

There are no elections in the Mormon church. Though its members may fiercely disagree, it is, in effect, a dictatorship. The very existence of the church is predicated on the principle of divine revelation. Its president is ordained not only as the one true living prophet for the church, but for the entire world. He is the only man on earth with the power and authority to speak on behalf of God regarding doctrinal matters. And what’s more, church members have been promised that they will never be led astray by their prophets. When a Mormon prophet speaks, it is as if God himself is speaking. And his words are recorded and regarded as scripture just the same as if it were Moses or Isaiah standing behind the pulpit. This is why Mormons, by and large, have ultimate faith in the pronouncements of their leaders.

It’s easy to see the appeal of maintaining a monopoly on ideas and information...

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 Post subject: Re: The few, the proud, the Maroons.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:15 pm 
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Growing up, I always felt like I would have had a better chance of entering the Celestial Kingdom if I was a non-member. I felt like non-members actually caught all of the breaks. They didn’t know what the true gospel was, so when they died, they weren’t judged on what they didn’t know. They then had the opportunity to receive the gospel AFTER the removal of the veil! Well, who is going to reject it then? Presto, they accept Jesus, get their ordinances done by proxy, and live happily ever after in the CK.

If you are “lucky” enough to be born in the covenant, you have the responsibility to “be ye therefore perfect”, and if you’re not, you are separated from your family in the next life forever and ever.

As others have stated, how fair is that?

I would be very interested in hearing Nightlion’s response to this. I’m not making fun, N.L. This is something I have sincerely struggled with. I am honestly curious regarding your insight.

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