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 Post subject: Pre-existence of Christ
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:52 pm 
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This has been bothering me- why? i don't know but it has.

Someone tell me how Jesus came to be in the pre-existence- did he have HP's ? if so he was like lots of others but low and behold he climbed the god ladder to be a god, nee a special god-how?

Also was Hf a pre-existent spirit baby too? I'm Confused at how it works in morg theology and doctrine.

Anyone-help me!

k


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 Post subject: Re: Pre-existence of Christ
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:20 pm 
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Pinning Morm's down as to specific doctrine on this would be akin to "poking a cat out from under a porch with a wet rope". - Jed Clampett. Pres Hinckley's "I don't know that we teach that" is what rolls back the previously taught lore of 'god was once a man'.

Intelligences.

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 Post subject: Re: Pre-existence of Christ
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:34 pm 
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Well for a significant part of LDS history, Jehovah and Jesus weren’t the same person, until the early 1900’s, and solidified with the book Jesus the Christ. It totally changes the landscape of godlike beings.

So, don’t expect much as far as specifics.

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 Post subject: Re: Pre-existence of Christ
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:57 am 
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kairos wrote:
Someone tell me how Jesus came to be in the pre-existence- did he have HP's ?

Hewlett-Packards were invented long, long after the pre-existence, so no, he didn't have any.

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 Post subject: Re: Pre-existence of Christ
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:14 am 
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kairos wrote:
This has been bothering me- why? i don't know but it has.

Someone tell me how Jesus came to be in the pre-existence- did he have HP's ? if so he was like lots of others but low and behold he climbed the god ladder to be a god, nee a special god-how?

Also was Hf a pre-existent spirit baby too? I'm Confused at how it works in morg theology and doctrine.

Anyone-help me!

k


The Book of Mormon is clear, Jesus pre-existed as the Eternal God with out a Father or Mother since he was God from Eternity


2 Nephi 26:12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;

Mosiah 3:5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.

3 Nephi 19:
18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.

Mosiah 5:15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.

2 Nephi 10:3
3 Wherefore, as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ—for in the last night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name—should come among the Jews, among those who are the more wicked part of the world; and they shall crucify him—for thus it behooveth our God, and there is none other nation on earth that would crucify their God.


Jesus became the Son 2018 years ago when he became flesh

Mosiah 15
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh;

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 Post subject: Re: Pre-existence of Christ
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:19 am 
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Mittens wrote:
kairos wrote:
This has been bothering me- why? i don't know but it has.

Someone tell me how Jesus came to be in the pre-existence- did he have HP's ? if so he was like lots of others but low and behold he climbed the god ladder to be a god, nee a special god-how?

Also was Hf a pre-existent spirit baby too? I'm Confused at how it works in morg theology and doctrine.

Anyone-help me!

k


The Book of Mormon is clear, Jesus pre-existed as the Eternal God with out a Father or Mother since he was God from Eternity


2 Nephi 26:12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;

Mosiah 3:5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.

3 Nephi 19:
18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.

Mosiah 5:15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.

2 Nephi 10:3
3 Wherefore, as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ—for in the last night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name—should come among the Jews, among those who are the more wicked part of the world; and they shall crucify him—for thus it behooveth our God, and there is none other nation on earth that would crucify their God.


Jesus became the Son 2018 years ago when he became flesh

Mosiah 15
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh;

Not bad Mittens. If you need a theological treatise on this you can read my link below about the New Mormon Theology. I get into the actual mechanics of how God is God from all eternity and yet Jesus comes to the world as the Son of God.

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 Post subject: Re: Pre-existence of Christ
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:05 am 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
Hewlett-Packards were invented long, long after the pre-existence, so no, he didn't have any.

That HP abbreviation was in reference to the Hokey Pokey, which Mormons perform during their ritual of desecration known as "dusting their boots".

The cosmological answer is that the first god was a mortal man, the product of natural evolution, who progressed to become a god. He begat a long line of gods which finally gave us our Supreme God. Jesus was the Supreme God's first son, born most likely to one of the first group of Supreme Celestial-Wives in accordance with the Obedience and Polygamy Principle which is the grand key. It is from this eternal line of gods that we get the song lyric, "there is no end to race". It is referring of course to the race of male gods. It is hoped that we as the lesser children of the Supreme God may obey our earthly authorities so we can be worthy of dancing the Hokey Pokey and turning ourselves around when the need arises.

Hope that helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Pre-existence of Christ
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:49 am 
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moksha wrote:
Dr. Shades wrote:
Hewlett-Packards were invented long, long after the pre-existence, so no, he didn't have any.

That HP abbreviation was in reference to the Hokey Pokey, which Mormons perform during their ritual of desecration known as "dusting their boots".

The cosmological answer is that the first god was a mortal man, the product of natural evolution, who progressed to become a god. He begat a long line of gods which finally gave us our Supreme God. Jesus was the Supreme God's first son, born most likely to one of the first group of Supreme Celestial-Wives in accordance with the Obedience and Polygamy Principle which is the grand key. It is from this eternal line of gods that we get the song lyric, "there is no end to race". It is referring of course to the race of male gods. It is hoped that we as the lesser children of the Supreme God may obey our earthly authorities so we can be worthy of dancing the Hokey Pokey and turning ourselves around when the need arises.

Hope that helps.


You know a hellavu lot more than the Hinkster though he did not dance the HP after the "Time" interview- ye gads there are gods all over the place- maybe I will find one in the freezer nibbling my ice cream!


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 Post subject: Re: Pre-existence of Christ
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:45 am 
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Night lion - can Jesus Christ or any god create matter or create "intelligences" - if not seems like those two items are Outside God , are they?

Thanx
k


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 Post subject: Re: Pre-existence of Christ
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:00 pm 
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Kairos,

Mormons believe that intelligences cannot be created and are co-eternal with God. Mormons also believe that matter is co-eternal with God. Sometime the words spirit and intelligence in the LDS canon are used interchangeably and leads to confusion.

Not all intelligences are equal and Jesus was one of the greater ones as was Lucifer. (By the way this belief was also responsible for much of the reasoning behind denying Blacks the priesthood and temple admission. It is also used frequently by chapel Mormons to explain why they are Mormons living today, because only the most valiant spirits were saved for these last days. In other words's "Hey we are really special and God loves us more!")

Mormon speculation would probably say the Jesus' spirit had heavenly parents like the rest of us. IOWs Jesus has existed forever in the pre existence as first an intelligence then spirit who was just smarter and better than anyone else except Elohim.

You also have to remember that Mormon theology is like a huge shallow lake. It's very impressive until one dives under the surface. There's not much there.

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 Post subject: Re: Pre-existence of Christ
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:07 pm 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
Kairos,

Mormons believe that intelligences cannot be created and are co-eternal with God. Mormons also believe that matter is co-eternal with God. Sometime the words spirit and intelligence in the LDS canon are used interchangeably and leads to confusion.

Not all intelligences are equal and Jesus was one of the greater ones as was Lucifer. (By the way this belief was also responsible for much of the reasoning behind denying Blacks the priesthood and temple admission. It is also used frequently by chapel Mormons to explain why they are Mormons living today, because only the most valiant spirits were saved for these last days. In other words's "Hey we are really special and God loves us more!")

Mormon speculation would probably say the Jesus' spirit had heavenly parents like the rest of us. IOWs Jesus has existed forever in the pre existence as first an intelligence then spirit who was just smarter and better than anyone else except Elohim.

You also have to remember that Mormon theology is like a huge shallow lake. It's very impressive until one dives under the surface. There's not much there.


thanx for the very good insights- today at my wife's ward-me non-mo, they went on and on about the prexistence but did not want to go to the "valiance" in the pre-existence nor about whether there was an order of merit there. after the class i asked an HP -high priest BYU type the same i posed here. he said Jesus was his/our spirit brother from same HP -heavenly parents but he "progressed" to godhood- i asked how did that happen- "over thousands of years in the pre-existence' he said. so how did he become god- well he progressed more than us was the answer. going nowhere with that, he said we have wonderful patriarchal blessings like his daughter's which states she wanted to come to earth earlier but Jesus would not let her so now she is here and stuck in the 50's- and Jesus let her select her parents according to the PB- ok the bell is ringing and my head is spinning- amazing when one is all in for the church anything is believable and believed. he finished with his son in jail visted by two cousins both who died early- ok tell me later -PLEASE!

thanx again
k


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 Post subject: Re: Pre-existence of Christ
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:34 am 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
kairos wrote:
Someone tell me how Jesus came to be in the pre-existence- did he have HP's ?

Hewlett-Packards were invented long, long after the pre-existence, so no, he didn't have any.


Not so fast Shades, where do you suppose the brilliant Reverse Polish Notation Calculators came from?


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 Post subject: Re: Pre-existence of Christ
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:46 am 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
kairos wrote:
Someone tell me how Jesus came to be in the pre-existence- did he have HP's ?

Hewlett-Packards were invented long, long after the pre-existence, so no, he didn't have any.

FYI LDS Inc is an Apple® house. I know this personally.

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 Post subject: Re: Pre-existence of Christ
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:51 am 
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It is an interesting question I hadn’t thought of before. How was Jesus the ‘god of the Old Testament’ and part of the earth’s creation committee long before going through the supposedly required step of getting a physical body?

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 Post subject: Re: Pre-existence of Christ
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:56 am 
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krose wrote:
It is an interesting question I hadn’t thought of before. How was Jesus the ‘god of the Old Testament’ and part of the earth’s creation committee long before going through the supposedly required step of getting a physical body?


LDS believe that the HG is also a 'god' and he does not have a body. So a physical body evidently is not necessary to hit some level of godhood.

Again we are back to that shallow lake theology here. LDS do not have any clear definition of what constitutes being a 'God' or even a 'god'. There seems to be multiple levels.

There is Elohim or God the Father who seems to be in a special class by himself. At times he is seen as the Prime Mover and creator of the Universe, the big boy who started it all and was the first. At other times he is just one in a long line of gods, as in the famous Lorenzo Snow couplet:

Quote:
As man now is, God once was:

“As God now is, man may be.


Which Hinkley later on said we don't know about.

Then we have Jesus who was a god (or maybe a God) in the pre-existence even before he had a body and since Satan was his equal there may be an argument that even Satan is a god (God).

We have the Holy Ghost who while a god may never get a body since that seems necessary to him being some sort of ghost.

And finally we have the common belief, which for most of us was doctrine, that those of us who are the most valiant, who don't wear two earrings or colored shirts to church, can also rise to the level of gods having dominion over our own worlds.

Are all these gods equal? No one knows. What makes a god divine? Another unknown in LDS theology.

LDS theology throws around words like God and Eternal and Priesthood power and so on, like they have some great significance or meaning, but try pinning someone down to specifics on this and it is a "wink wink, nudge nudge, know what I mean?" sort of thing. There is really nothing there of substance.

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 Post subject: Re: Pre-existence of Christ
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:32 am 
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by the way
the whole jehovah-eloh(e)im thing is a mishmash

jehovah (in original yhwh; the english pronounciation has nothing to do with the hebrew grammar/letters) is the only god, god of jews

eloh(e)im is the hebrew word for god; or gods in general

""I am the LORD your God""
in original - partially translated - i am jehovah your elohim

can anybody interpret this as two different entity?
or only an uneducated farmboy? and his followers?

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