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 Post subject: New York Times Addresses the coverage of Monson's Obit
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:27 pm 
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https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/08/reader-center/thomas-monson-obituary.html?referer=

Quote:
Readers reacted strongly to our obituary for Thomas S. Monson, who served as prophet and head of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for nearly a decade. In hundreds of messages to The New York Times and dozens of comments on the obituary, readers, including many Mormons, wrote that the obituary focused too narrowly on the politics and controversies of the Mormon Church and overlooked Mr. Monson’s contributions to the community.


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We’re not in the business of paying tribute. We’re journalists first and foremost....We also understand that these audiences will be more sensitive than most to how we portray someone known to them. Some may have an agenda of some kind, wanting us to portray someone as they want that person to be remembered, perhaps in a light that best serves their interests....We can’t bend to that, of course. We have to let the facts of the life paint the picture.


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 Post subject: Re: New York Times Addresses the coverage of Monson's Obit
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:28 pm 
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Personality worship is strong in the church. Many in the church are offended at anything less that an adoring, faith promoting and worshipful portrayal of their beloved leader. The New York Times addressed this head on when they said "We’re not in the business of paying tribute. We’re journalists first and foremost."

TBMs need to clue in. The world doesn't revolve around their Utah church, and this is not North Korea.


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 Post subject: Re: New York Times Addresses the coverage of Monson's Obit
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:31 pm 
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Quote:
NYTimes said
We’re not in the business of paying tribute. We’re journalists first and foremost....We also understand that these audiences will be more sensitive than most to how we portray someone known to them. Some may have an agenda of some kind, wanting us to portray someone as they want that person to be remembered, perhaps in a light that best serves their interests....We can’t bend to that, of course. We have to let the facts of the life paint the picture.


Translated says
We don't do hero worship and we damn sure will not whitewash history. Get a clue and suck it up cupcakes.

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 Post subject: Re: New York Times Addresses the coverage of Monson's Obit
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:42 pm 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
Translated says
We don't do hero worship and we damn sure will not whitewash history. Get a clue and suck it up cupcakes.


Perfect. Well said.

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 Post subject: Re: New York Times Addresses the coverage of Monson's Obit
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:57 pm 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
Quote:
NYTimes said
We’re not in the business of paying tribute. We’re journalists first and foremost....We also understand that these audiences will be more sensitive than most to how we portray someone known to them. Some may have an agenda of some kind, wanting us to portray someone as they want that person to be remembered, perhaps in a light that best serves their interests....We can’t bend to that, of course. We have to let the facts of the life paint the picture.


Translated says
We don't do hero worship and we damn sure will not whitewash history. Get a clue and suck it up cupcakes.


No, I think the Times was much kinder than that:

Quote:
But I also acknowledge that many of those who found the obituary wanting feel we did not provide a more rounded view of Mr. Monson — perhaps his more human side. I’ll concede that what we portrayed was the public man, not the private one, or the one known to his most ardent admirers.

In 20/20 hindsight, we might have paid more attention to the high regard with which he was held within the church. I think by his very position in the church, all that was implied. But perhaps we should have stated it more plainly

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 Post subject: Re: New York Times Addresses the coverage of Monson's Obit
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:37 pm 
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I had caught the reporting and browsed the threads on the forum on this topic today, but what really caught my attention was something that happened while driving tonight. After 8 PM we can catch AM 1160 KSL on the radio here in Phoenix, which was the radio station my parents lived their lives to when I was growing up. So I'll tune in on occasion to hear the late night conservative voices that are just regional enough to Utah to be uniquely entertaining to me.

I tuned in tonight. And the discussion was nothing but expressions of outrage over the New York Times obituary, the urging of listeners to sign the online petition, and discussion on such paradoxes as the Times being obligated to report on Monson's death because he was the leader of a world-wide religion while degrading the obit's writer for not likely being familiar enough with Utah and Utah Mormonism to have been qualified to have written the piece. That made me LOL, literally.

After that, I had to read it for myself.

In reading Monson's obituary I thought of how different it was from an eulogy which is what I think most Mormons expect for their leadership. They come to praise, not to contextualize. But more than this, I was struck by something said on KSL that made more sense to me after reading the Time obituary. They kept comparing Monson's obituary to that given for Hugh Hefner and Fidel Castro. And complaining that these were much more favorable towards their subjects than Monson's had been. What became clear to me in reading these three obituaries was that it seemed all three were being judged by their role as individuals in relation to the times they were in. While all three included pretty rough commentary on aspects of their lives, where Monson seemed to draw particular negative commentary wasn't in regards to his overall life lived, but how he was confronted with change and opportunity to make a mark...and instead chose to hold tighter to the past and traditional. Where Hefner and Castro challenged the status quo of their culture and times, Monson chose to be less a man for the ages and to lead into a new century but instead chose entrenchment. In the post-Weinstein accusation era, he lived his life on the wrong side of the wrong issues of today. His obituary is, in a sense, a reflection of his having passed away when he did as much as anything else.

And frankly, it seemed fair to me. He lived a by-the-book life and died adored by those who loved him while being the leader of the organization in times when change might have been difficult but needed. And he stood with the times he represented. Born too late for WWII, but just old enough to ride the crest of the post-WWII wave with all the good fortune that his background and aw shucks demeanor could purchase in an aw shucks time and aw shucks culture. Yeah. The Time may have been heavy handed in some ways, but in a way it feels more authentic than had they really spent a balanced amount of time giving us all an aw shucks memorial of him.

He was one of many who came before, and there will be more like him that come after. Members will praise his aw shucks life until the next guy is crowned and move on. And in doing so, they'll prove far more about the Times' obit than they could by signing a petition in outrage.

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 Post subject: Re: New York Times Addresses the coverage of Monson's Obit
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:43 pm 
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Jack G. @ NYTimes.com wrote:
His truest memorial will always be City Creek Mall anyway.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Goddamn persecution complex crybaby morons. Go fawn over your dead cult leader at his newspaper.

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 Post subject: Re: New York Times Addresses the coverage of Monson's Obit
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:48 pm 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
Quote:
NYTimes said
We’re not in the business of paying tribute. We’re journalists first and foremost....We also understand that these audiences will be more sensitive than most to how we portray someone known to them. Some may have an agenda of some kind, wanting us to portray someone as they want that person to be remembered, perhaps in a light that best serves their interests....We can’t bend to that, of course. We have to let the facts of the life paint the picture.


Translated says
We don't do hero worship and we damn sure will not whitewash history. Get a clue and suck it up cupcakes.

You have officially reached exmo status.

Congrats!

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 Post subject: Re: New York Times Addresses the coverage of Monson's Obit
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:51 pm 
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The N.Y. Times doesn't realize how superior Mormon leaders are, in their humble way. Leading the world is tough and sometimes lesser humans need to be treated lesser, like the gays and women. So the outrage is obviously justified. The Times should have treated his death like, you know, how the bible and the bofm treated the death of Jesus. I'm sure there was some earthquake somewhere when Monson passed and volcano activity is increasing ...

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 Post subject: Re: New York Times Addresses the coverage of Monson's Obit
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:43 pm 
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In FAIRness, I imagine that many of the objections to his obituary likely stem from its sharp contrast to the glowing obituary that they gave Fidel Castro. It's like they glossed over all of Fidel's atrocities but honed in on Monson's personal shortcomings with laser-like focus.

So it's not so much the reporting as it is the double-standard. At least that's my impression.

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 Post subject: Re: New York Times Addresses the coverage of Monson's Obit
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:58 am 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
In FAIRness, I imagine that many of the objections to his obituary likely stem from its sharp contrast to the glowing obituary that they gave Fidel Castro. It's like they glossed over all of Fidel's atrocities but honed in on Monson's personal shortcomings with laser-like focus.

So it's not so much the reporting as it is the double-standard. At least that's my impression.

This remark probably lands the best punch. I’m no fan of Monson or his church but go back and read the obit. How many paragraphs before they even get to the expected part: “Tommy was born in...”?

I side with the angry Mormons on this one.

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 Post subject: Re: New York Times Addresses the coverage of Monson's Obit
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:03 am 
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sunstoned wrote:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/08/reader-center/thomas-monson-obituary.html?referer=

Quote:
Readers reacted strongly to our obituary for Thomas S. Monson, who served as prophet and head of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for nearly a decade. In hundreds of messages to The New York Times and dozens of comments on the obituary, readers, including many Mormons, wrote that the obituary focused too narrowly on the politics and controversies of the Mormon Church and overlooked Mr. Monson’s contributions to the community.


Quote:
We’re not in the business of paying tribute. We’re journalists first and foremost....We also understand that these audiences will be more sensitive than most to how we portray someone known to them. Some may have an agenda of some kind, wanting us to portray someone as they want that person to be remembered, perhaps in a light that best serves their interests....We can’t bend to that, of course. We have to let the facts of the life paint the picture.


It's rather embarrassing...for a church that eschews the charge of being a cult, its members are sure acting like cult members.

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 Post subject: Re: New York Times Addresses the coverage of Monson's Obit
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:13 pm 
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It's also fairly easy to compare their Monson obit to their Hinckley one. It's obvious the tone and format of the Hinckley one is drastically different than the Monson one:

Quote:
Gordon B. Hinckley, the president and prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who led Mormonism through a period of global expansion, died Sunday at his home in Salt Lake City. He was 97.

The church, which announced his death on its Web site, said a successor to Mr. Hinckley was not expected to be chosen until after his funeral.

Mr. Hinckley spent 46 years in the church’s top leadership ranks, 12 of those as its 15th president. He was the oldest president in the church’s history.

In a faith that is relatively young, founded in 1830, Mr. Hinckley’s impact was formative. He traveled to 60 countries and dedicated 95 of the church’s 124 temples, some on sites that he himself had surveyed and selected. Wherever he went, he drew large crowds of church members waving white handkerchiefs, a sign of affection that began in Chile and spread.

With his buoyant personality and affinity for public relations, Mr. Hinckley made Mormonism more familiar to the public and more accepted in the Christian fold. He gave news conferences and was the first church president to sit for interviews on “60 Minutes” and “Larry King Live.” When the Winter Olympics went to Salt Lake City in 2002, the church’s home base, he guided the church outreach campaign.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/28/us/28hinckley.html



Here's the Monson obit opening:

Quote:
Thomas S. Monson, who as president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints since 2008 enlarged the ranks of female missionaries, but rebuffed demands to ordain women as priests and refused to alter church opposition to same-sex marriage, died on Tuesday at his home in Salt Lake City. He was 90.

His death was announced on the church’s website.

Facing vociferous demands to recognize same-sex marriage, and weathering demonstrations at church headquarters by Mormon women pleading for the right to be ordained as priests, Mr. Monson did not bend. Teachings holding homosexuality to be immoral, bans on sexual intercourse outside male-female marriages, and an all-male priesthood would remain unaltered.

Mr. Monson displayed a new openness to scholars of Mormonism, however, allowing them remarkable access to church records. But as rising numbers of church members and critics joined the internet’s free-for-all culture of debate and exposé, his church was confronted with troubling inconsistencies in Mormon history and Scripture. The church even found itself at odds with an old ally, the Boy Scouts of America, which admitted gay members and gay adults as scout leaders.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/03/obit ... -dies.html


I think the comparison between the two could at least raise some questions about the focus and tone of the Monson obit. And I wonder if the writer of the New York Times response had even read the Hinckley obit, because it appears to be formatted exactly the way he says they don't do obituaries.

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 Post subject: Re: New York Times Addresses the coverage of Monson's Obit
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:35 pm 
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It somehow reminds me of the book Sapiens: A brief history of human kind by Yuval Noah Harari. Harari talks about how other species that gradually evolved to the top of the food chain over millions of years such as lions and sharks have a majestic quality to them. They are comfortable and confident with their place in the world and have nothing to prove. In contrast, sapiens, according to Harari, have made an incredibly fast leap from the middle to the top just 70,000 years ago--a blink of an eye in evolutionary terms. Because of that, humans instinctively are full of fears and anxieties about their position in the world and treat other species and the planet itself as banana republic dictator would.

News stories like Monson's obituary reveal similar fears and insecurities in Mormons. Perhaps since they have only had a seat at the table of respectable mainstream society for a few decades, anything that would construe them as being the least bit peculiar is cause of offense and overreaction.

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 Post subject: Re: New York Times Addresses the coverage of Monson's Obit
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:36 pm 
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cinepro wrote:
I think the comparison between the two could at least raise some questions about the focus and tone of the Monson obit. And I wonder if the writer of the New York Times response had even read the Hinckley obit, because it appears to be formatted exactly the way he says they don't do obituaries.

Lost in my longer post is my opinion that Monson's passing in the post-Weinstein era contributes more to how he is being contextualized than any other factor. Keeping in mind that his obituary in the Times is an attempt to place him within his time rather than eulogize him, it's a meh thing to me. Mormonism IS patriarchal and oppressive towards LGBT people. He was confronted with change and his leadership decisions were at odds with the current of society. If the Mormon community wants to view it as offensive, it's understandable. But they can't argue that when his heart is being placed on the scale of modern secular western society it clunked down hard in representing the increasing distance between LDS culture and it's parent culture.

For all his faults, particularly in the eyes of post-Mormons, Hinckley in his time was engaged in mainstreaming LDS culture with western Christianity and society more broadly. As much as Mormons like to think everyone knows about them in a way that would make sense to Mormons, too, the reality is Mormons are largely a mystery to most Americans outside of Utah. Hinckely was raising the curtains while controlling the message. He was a product of his time, and his time judged him more favorably. Mormons will eulogize Monson either way.

ETA: Now, the petition could be interesting when looked at outside of Mormonism...if it makes it outside of Mormon circles and into a broader consciousness which is not a given. I'll be curious to see how people respond who aren't LDS.

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 Post subject: Re: New York Times Addresses the coverage of Monson's Obit
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:56 pm 
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The world has Deseret News to paint the Norman Rockwell portrait of Monson. It has the New York Times to cast a more jaundiced eye on the same subject.


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 Post subject: Re: New York Times Addresses the coverage of Monson's Obit
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:28 pm 
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I guess I'm not seeing the problem. Hinckley's tenure was pretty uneventful in terms of political, ecclesiastical, or social controversies. That is partly probably due to his own skill managing the message (i.e. Mormons are normal people) and the hierarchy (i.e. don't let Boyd Packer go about excommunicating people). It's also luck, because he was on his way out before social media really began to change the dynamic of Mormonism on the internet.

It seems to me the Times is basically saying what happened under Monson's watch, some negative and some positive. The offended faithful are not really complaining that Monson was portrayed with a negative slant but that anything negative was included at all.

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 Post subject: Re: New York Times Addresses the coverage of Monson's Obit
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:26 pm 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
In FAIRness, I imagine that many of the objections to his obituary likely stem from its sharp contrast to the glowing obituary that they gave Fidel Castro. It's like they glossed over all of Fidel's atrocities but honed in on Monson's personal shortcomings with laser-like focus.

So it's not so much the reporting as it is the double-standard. At least that's my impression.



In the opening paragraph of the New York Times obit on Castro he is described as "...pushing the world to the brink of nuclear war..."

Glowing indeed...

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 Post subject: Re: New York Times Addresses the coverage of Monson's Obit
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:27 pm 
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symm wrote:
Hinckley's tenure was pretty uneventful in terms of political, ecclesiastical, or social controversies.


right, this is what i was going to say after reading Cinepro's post. The LGBT "moment" for lack of a better word would make it political suicide to speak to nicely about the leader of a church that went to war against gays. This is partly because church leaders are idiots, and partly because they're caught with their pants down. I mean, even if Monson had wanted to support gays openly, he may have had a mutiny with the membership on his hands if he would have done so.

It's not just religions that struggle to keep up, they just have far more ground to cover and the LDS has an impossible chasm ahead since it went way overboard in creating the 1950's suburban white family as the revealed model for eternal progression. It's much easier to just allow gays into heaven.

A few years ago I had never heard of same-sex benefits from an employer, and now it's pretty standard as if no-one ever had questioned it and in the last two years, both my employer's had SS couples on the cover of the main benefits guide. And so it's not like the rest of the world outside Mormonism has had its arms out to receive gays, but now the moment is here, it's good press to get in the spotlight as a supporter if possible.

I guess the church leaders in the 50s thought they had it all figured out, and all that was left was to make a ____ in real estate to keep the ship moving forward.


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 Post subject: Re: New York Times Addresses the coverage of Monson's Obit
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:36 pm 
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Gad, Church leaders are still in the 1950’s...

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 Post subject: Re: New York Times Addresses the coverage of Monson's Obit
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:08 am 
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Kittens_and_Jesus wrote:
Dr. Shades wrote:
In FAIRness, I imagine that many of the objections to his obituary likely stem from its sharp contrast to the glowing obituary that they gave Fidel Castro. It's like they glossed over all of Fidel's atrocities but honed in on Monson's personal shortcomings with laser-like focus.

So it's not so much the reporting as it is the double-standard. At least that's my impression.



In the opening paragraph of the New York Times obit on Castro he is described as "...pushing the world to the brink of nuclear war..."

Glowing indeed...


That's the glowing-coals-of-Hell glowing.


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