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 Post subject: Re: Dan Peterson's Utterly Stupid Quote
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:53 pm 
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Exiled wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:
Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology.


Wonderful, concise explanation. I want to put this in my tagline if you will allow me to do so. So, I can remember it and publish it for others to enjoy. This encapsulates all the problems I have with religion.


I already did so. And you ought to as well. The more that see this, the better.

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 Post subject: Re: Dan Peterson's Utterly Stupid Quote
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:56 pm 
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symm wrote:
is indeed about explanation,


right, we need to consider the source, and this blog argues science can't explain everything, and therefore we must accept the world was created in a butter churn.


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 Post subject: Re: Dan Peterson's Utterly Stupid Quote
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:08 pm 
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Gadianton wrote:
symm wrote:
is indeed about explanation,


right, we need to consider the source, and this blog argues science can't explain everything, and therefore we must accept the world was created in a butter churn.

:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Dan Peterson's Utterly Stupid Quote
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:21 pm 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
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huckleberry
I mean what if there are no heavenly rewards?


Then people, if they actually understood this, would finally quit worrying about an imagined after life and get on with living this one well. One can never really know if there are heavenly rewards, so why imagine there are. Live for the earthly rewards that we know are available here and now. Heaven can wait. We don't live there, we live here.


Yes I think you are correct. Worrying about an after life is futile. We only know about this life and the only substance in religion that I can understand is about how we approach living this life.

What is to me really valuable in Jesus words and death is how he invites us to investigate deeper into our understanding of what is of value in life. Jesus engages peoples mind. I think he also asks people to be more honest with themselves over these things.


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 Post subject: Re: Dan Peterson's Utterly Stupid Quote
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:50 am 
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Symmachus wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:
Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology.


I know some might appreciate this for its iconoclasm or some for its apparent cynicism, but for me this definition perfectly encapsulates why religion is so appealing and why even I, an atheist for all intents and purposes, am so deeply attracted to religion: it's about failure, which is how most things end up in life for most people.


I am right there with you, consul.


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 Post subject: Re: Dan Peterson's Utterly Stupid Quote
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:51 am 
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Thanks to all of you who praised my deliberately provocative definition of religion. There is a time and a place for such spirited statements, imo. I am glad it was taken well and properly.


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 Post subject: Re: Dan Peterson's Utterly Stupid Quote
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:48 am 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology.


Boom! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Dan Peterson's Utterly Stupid Quote
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:17 am 
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huckelberry wrote:
Yes I think you are correct. Worrying about an after life is futile. We only know about this life and the only substance in religion that I can understand is about how we approach living this life.

What is to me really valuable in Jesus words and death is how he invites us to investigate deeper into our understanding of what is of value in life. Jesus engages peoples mind. I think he also asks people to be more honest with themselves over these things.


So if a person does not believe in Jesus but lives a decent life, do you believe they will be punished in the next life?

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 Post subject: Re: Dan Peterson's Utterly Stupid Quote
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:59 pm 
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Themis wrote:
huckelberry wrote:
Yes I think you are correct. Worrying about an after life is futile. We only know about this life and the only substance in religion that I can understand is about how we approach living this life.

What is to me really valuable in Jesus words and death is how he invites us to investigate deeper into our understanding of what is of value in life. Jesus engages peoples mind. I think he also asks people to be more honest with themselves over these things.


So if a person does not believe in Jesus but lives a decent life, do you believe they will be punished in the next life?


After some years as an atheist I found myself with some interests in Jesus and Christian basics. The idea that all people who do not believe and join Christianity will be eternally punished is such a repulsive chaotic idea that I found it a serious barrier. I have given the matter enough consideration that not only do I not believe the idea because it is destructive of human respect and love but it poorly fits the general structure of Christian beliefs.

I realize there are some people who use your phrase as a shibboleth , one must reject it saying people cannot be saved just because they live a decent life. I respect normal Christian doctrine enough to say nobody is saved in any eternity outside of Jesus and his sharing of forgiveness. That is the only basis for eternal life or alive life here. But I believe the connection is from God not just ourselves . I think we all live with enough connection to God that as we accept our need to receive and give forgiveness we connect to Gods way of life and start to distance ourselves from the way of death. I think that connects with Jesus in a saving fashion whether or not the person knows about Jesus or whether or not they can logically believe the religious ideas about him.

That is at least one way of saying it. Another is just to say I live in hope that Gods mercy and grace reaches far beyond the human limitations of knowledge and understanding.

I think the human community is healthy with various degrees of belief and doubt in different people. I believe Gods grace encourages that variety. The result encourages us to work together with people of different understandings.

I will confess I am against some longstanding Christian prejudicial beliefs about non Christians. I believe Christianity will be more healthy as it opens to be more understanding of others, as it values helpfulness above uniformity.


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 Post subject: Re: Dan Peterson's Utterly Stupid Quote
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:17 pm 
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Quote:
huckleberry
I believe Christianity will be more healthy as it opens to be more understanding of others, as it values helpfulness above uniformity.


We can do that without Christianity. We can do that as decent human beings. Religion is not needed for this to take place.

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 Post subject: Re: Dan Peterson's Utterly Stupid Quote
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:33 pm 
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Quote:
huckleberry
The idea that all people who do not believe and join Christianity will be eternally punished is such a repulsive chaotic idea that I found it a serious barrier. I have given the matter enough consideration that not only do I not believe the idea because it is destructive of human respect and love but it poorly fits the general structure of Christian beliefs.


And yet Jesus himself preaches deferred violence, and quite gross violence for some rather blase "offences" done in life in Matthew 25. He says to those on the left, you didn't feed me, clothe me, or visit me, and for that you gonna burn forever! And with "eternal punishment." As Hector Avalos notes (The Bad Jesus: The Ethics of New Testament Ethics, Sheffield Phoenix Press, 2015, pp. 102-104, using Matthew 25:31-46 as his text)

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As does Christ in Matthew 25, Yahweh in Deuteronomy 32 promises to avenge his servants, As gruesome and violent as Deuteronomy 32 is, Christ goes much further. Christ does not only wish to kill those who harmed his servants. Christ wants to torture them eternally with fire, one of the most horrific ways to destroy a body... it is Jesus who emphasizes, more than anyone else before him, the idea that those who displease him should suffer an eternal torture. So the quality of the violence (burning) and the eternal duration of the violence are infinitely greater than almost any precedent I know.

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 Post subject: Re: Dan Peterson's Utterly Stupid Quote
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:18 pm 
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philo, the subject is not some minor offense but living ones life brushing aside being helpful as a minor matter not be be bothered with. Well that can be a road of comfort and satisfaction for the superior so it is not nice to be reminded it is the road to hell.


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 Post subject: Re: Dan Peterson's Utterly Stupid Quote
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:09 pm 
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I find huck's Christianity to be a decent sort that I wish more Christians would get behind. I don't see what the problem is. And on hell, well, I have to say that the most disappointing thought that arises out of my atheism is not the absence of heaven for my eternal soul, which I wouldn't hope for, but the absence of hell for the souls of the unjust and brutal, which I do. I don't know about Christian believers today, but I can sympathize with the stirrings in the mind of a Jewish peasant yearning for justice in the cosmos.

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 Post subject: Re: Dan Peterson's Utterly Stupid Quote
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:32 pm 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
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“Christianity was never meant to be an explanation of anything in the first place,” ...

It took a number of centuries to cobble together Christianity as we know of it. There were wars and rumors of war among the cobblers. Homoousios eventually beat the stuffing out of homoiousios, but not in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: Dan Peterson's Utterly Stupid Quote
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:27 am 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology.

This.

Symmachus wrote:
I know some might appreciate this for its iconoclasm or some for its apparent cynicism, but for me this definition perfectly encapsulates why religion is so appealing and why even I, an atheist for all intents and purposes, am so deeply attracted to religion: it's about failure, which is how most things end up in life for most people.

And this.


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