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 Post subject: Peterson throws Adam & Eve under the bus....
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:55 am 
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Arguments have raged for generations about how to reconcile the first chapters of the biblical book of Genesis with current scientific thinking regarding evolution, the age of the Earth, and human origins. I’m as interested in these debates as anybody. Maybe more so, since I’ve read a number of books on the subject.

Likewise, readers of the Bible have clashed for many centuries about how best to understand the book of Revelation — the Apocalypse of John — with its difficult prophecies about the end times and the winding up of Earth’s history. I’m interested in such matters, too. The future fascinates me, because I expect to spend the rest of my life in it.

But I’m also firmly convinced that the specific details of Genesis and Revelation are of only secondary importance and that they can distract us from the books’ primary intent.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865 ... ation.html

Keep moving them goal posts to where the ball has been kicked, then claim you’ve scored....

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 Post subject: Re: Peterson throws Adam & Eve under the bus....
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:54 am 
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Jerry Coyne's book "Faith Vs. Fact" was the clearest, most succinct demonstration how evolution has shown in spades that Adam and Eve are just myth, a fanciful invention created by simpleton minds when it came to the reality of how humans came onto the scene. It truly is as purely mythical as someone being born of a virgin or three hip dudes following a star through the sky until the thing stopped pointing down to a specific spot on earth giving those dudes a precise location of a very special baby.

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 Post subject: Re: Peterson throws Adam & Eve under the bus....
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:19 am 
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I vaguely remember Dr. Price talk about it in one of his podcasts about genesis on the bible geek. He mentioned how some viewed the adam and eve story as a coming of age tale. Two youths, innocent at first, but lose their innocence and are then thrust out into the adult world. It seemed like a reasonable view to have. He also talked about how this story is found in many other cultures.

I think you will find it in Dr. Price's podcasts on a course on genesis he did a few years ago. I found it by looking up "genesis" and "price" in the youtube search.

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 Post subject: Re: Peterson throws Adam & Eve under the bus....
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:23 am 
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Exiled wrote:
I vaguely remember Dr. Price talk about it in one of his podcasts about genesis on the bible geek. He mentioned how some viewed the adam and eve story as a coming of age tale. Two youths, innocent at first, but lose their innocence and are then thrust out into the adult world. It seemed like a reasonable view to have. He also talked about how this story is found in many other cultures.

I think you will find it in Dr. Price's podcasts on a course on genesis he did a few years ago. I found it by looking up "genesis" and "price" in the youtube search.


I'd throw mythical characters under the bus all day long, just for funsies. It ain't hurting no one.


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 Post subject: Re: Peterson throws Adam & Eve under the bus....
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:07 am 
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I was an Adam and Eve literalist, taking my queues from Bruce R. McConkie, I embraced the seemingly comfortable well laid out plan of salvation taught by the church in my youth. Part of being an Adam and Eve literalist required the denial and eschewing of Darwinian Evolution. With the realities of evolution set aside God's plan flowed smoothly and effortlessly along. A young earth. No death before the fall, Eve choosing to eat of the forbidden fruit and Adam, out of necessity partaking, death being introduced into the world, necessitating a savior. It all made such easy perfect logical sense. The only problem was that my entire worldview was built on a foundation of false assumptions and myths.

I was well into my adult years when I was confronted with reality. My carefully built compartments holding my literal Adam and Eve beliefs were separated from my knowledge of dinosaurs in different places within my mind. I never allowed one to come in contact with the other nor allowed one to cause questioning of the other. In a bizarre mental gymnastic I held that both were true despite their obvious conflicts. Oh it helped that teachers within the church gave me what seemed at the time logical explanations for these conflicts such as those dinosaur bone having come from other planets during the creation.

It was only after I began to reexamine all of the doubts on my mental shelf that I even dared to even examine Adam and Eve. By doing so I came to understand the folly of my youth and the naïveté of my beliefs.

In the years since the collapse of my beliefs, embracing both the reality and implications of evolution has not come easily. It's not a comfortable acceptance...but an acceptance it has become. Facing the reality that I am an evolved being, descended from pre-humanoids and other mammals before them, right back to my single cell ancestor while difficult to accept has been a blessing of sorts. Facing the hard truth, in my mind is much preferred to living a comforting lie.

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 Post subject: Re: Peterson throws Adam & Eve under the bus....
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:24 am 
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Exiled wrote:
I vaguely remember Dr. Price talk about it in one of his podcasts about genesis on the bible geek. He mentioned how some viewed the adam and eve story as a coming of age tale. Two youths, innocent at first, but lose their innocence and are then thrust out into the adult world. It seemed like a reasonable view to have. He also talked about how this story is found in many other cultures.

I'd suggest reading the John Steinbeck translation of the Adam and Eve story for anyone who hasn't. Much better than the others.

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 Post subject: Re: Peterson throws Adam & Eve under the bus....
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:17 pm 
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Craig Paxton wrote:
Facing the reality that I am an evolved being, descended from pre-humanoids and other mammals before them, right back to my single cell ancestor while difficult to accept has been a blessing of sorts. Facing the hard truth, in my mind is much preferred to living a comforting lie.


This is all fine and good...as far as it goes...but the problem I see with this is that it simply excises/cuts out any meaningful "purpose" from in the universe. Purpose is only what you make it.

That is a "hard truth". If you choose to go that direction.

But if one chooses to believe in a creator/God, then meaningful purpose enters into the picture. And that hard truth of nihilism, which I think you're referring to, becomes less of a threat.

In regards to Adam and Eve:

Quote:
"What the church requires is only belief that Adam was the first man of what we would call the human race. Scientists can speculate on the rest."
President Hinckley


Quote:
Upon one thing we should all be able to agree, namely, that Presidents Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, and Anthon H. Lund were right when they said: "Adam is the primal parent of our race." [First Presidency Minutes, Apr. 7, 1931].


Quote:
"The LDS Church has a great scientific tradition, including notable, respected researchers in virtually every field of modern science. Indeed, our motto is “The glory of God is intelligence.” Why not just acknowledge that science and religion address two very different sets of questions, and that the methodology in one arena cannot settle controversies in the other?"
David H. Bailey


Regards,
MG


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 Post subject: Re: Peterson throws Adam & Eve under the bus....
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:09 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
This is all fine and good...as far as it goes...but the problem I see with this is that it simply excises/cuts out any meaningful "purpose" from in the universe. Purpose is only what you make it.

Doesn't your second sentence contradict your first sentence?

Quote:
That is a "hard truth". If you choose to go that direction.

Accepting a fact sometimes isn't a choice. The evidence often makes it entirely involuntary.

Quote:
But if one chooses to believe in a creator/God, then meaningful purpose enters into the picture.

If we're going around choosing things, why not skip the middleman and just choose your own meaning?

Quote:
And that hard truth of nihilism, which I think you're referring to, becomes less of a threat.

Where in the rulebook does it say that nihilism is a threat?

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 Post subject: Re: Peterson throws Adam & Eve under the bus....
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:22 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Peterson throws Adam & Eve under the bus....
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:26 pm 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:
This is all fine and good...as far as it goes...but the problem I see with this is that it simply excises/cuts out any meaningful "purpose" from in the universe. Purpose is only what you make it.

Doesn't your second sentence contradict your first sentence?


No.

Regards,
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 Post subject: Re: Peterson throws Adam & Eve under the bus....
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:56 pm 
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MG
"What the church requires is only belief that Adam was the first man of what we would call the human race. Scientists can speculate on the rest."
President Hinckley


Upon one thing we should all be able to agree, namely, that Presidents Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, and Anthon H. Lund were right when they said: "Adam is the primal parent of our race." [First Presidency Minutes, Apr. 7, 1931].


Which is precisely what genetic evolution has fundamentally proven to be dead wrong. There never was a first Adam man and a first woman eve together kick starting and spear heading the human race. Coyne's book "Faith Vs. Fact" is essential on this. The church leaders don't have a flippin clue about reality. They work within the realm of mythology, not actual historic reality.

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 Post subject: Re: Peterson throws Adam & Eve under the bus....
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:54 am 
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The Hinckster wrote:
"What the church requires is only belief that Adam was the first man of what we would call the human race. Scientists can speculate on the rest."

I think I follow this reasoning. After eons of developing, two hominid babies were born whose particular set of genetic mutations made them juuust different enough from their parents that they were now fully ‘human.’

These babies, whom we now call “Adam” and “Eve,” grew up and left their slightly more ape-ish parents to find each other in a pretty garden. They reproduced and grew the great human race that we know and love today. Meanwhile, the not-quite-really-human race from whence they sprang died out, leaving them to inhabit the world.

Sure. Makes sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Peterson throws Adam & Eve under the bus....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:49 pm 
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krose wrote:
The Hinckster wrote:
"What the church requires is only belief that Adam was the first man of what we would call the human race. Scientists can speculate on the rest."

I think I follow this reasoning. After eons of developing, two hominid babies were born whose particular set of genetic mutations made them juuust different enough from their parents that they were now fully ‘human.’

These babies, whom we now call “Adam” and “Eve,” grew up and left their slightly more ape-ish parents to find each other in a pretty garden. They reproduced and grew the great human race that we know and love today. Meanwhile, the not-quite-really-human race from whence they sprang died out, leaving them to inhabit the world.

Sure. Makes sense.


I think that many LDS folks that are open to the theory of evolution having some basis in fact look at Mother Eve and Father Adam as being the primal parents of the human race. And that we see through a glass darkly when trying to view that 'singularity' within the scope of looking at the depth and breadth of human beginnings.

Just as I doubt we're going to find a city marker showing the location of Zarahemla, I don't think we're going to find grave markers for Adam and Eve and/or a direct genetic line to them.

I accept that there were primal parents of the human race and that God gave them commandments and made covenants with them and their progeny. Some followed and obeyed, and others didn't. Some sort of did, but went their own way. Kind of like what we observe today.

There, that was simple, wasn't it? :wink:

Regards,
MG


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 Post subject: Re: Peterson throws Adam & Eve under the bus....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:24 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
Purpose is only what you make it.

That is a "hard truth". If you choose to go that direction.

But if one chooses to believe in a creator/God, then meaningful purpose enters into the picture. And that hard truth of nihilism, which I think you're referring to, becomes less of a threat.


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 Post subject: Re: Peterson throws Adam & Eve under the bus....
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:47 am 
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Stem wrote:
I'd throw mythical characters under the bus all day long, just for funsies. It ain't hurting no one.

Minotaurs and griffins are okay with being under the bus, but please go easy on Mr. Snuffleupagus.

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 Post subject: Re: Peterson throws Adam & Eve under the bus....
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:36 am 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
I think that many LDS folks that are open to the theory of evolution having some basis in fact look at Mother Eve and Father Adam as being the primal parents of the human race...

I accept that there were primal parents of the human race and that God gave them commandments and made covenants with them and their progeny...

I’m not following. Are you saying Adam and Eve are symbols of humans’ early ancestors, or they were two evolved actual humans plucked out of their tribe to star in the bible story?

Would the “LDS folks... open to... evolution” say that Eve and Adam evolved from other different life forms, rather than being created as detailed in Genesis?

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 Post subject: Re: Peterson throws Adam & Eve under the bus....
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:55 am 
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krose wrote:
I’m not following. Are you saying Adam and Eve are symbols of humans’ early ancestors, or they were two evolved actual humans plucked out of their tribe to star in the bible story?

Would the “LDS folks... open to... evolution” say that Eve and Adam evolved from other different life forms, rather than being created as detailed in Genesis?


The Church’s doctrinal stance:
There was no death before the fall of Adam.
The fall of Adam happened circa 4,000BCE.
Adam and Eve are literal people, not symbolic.
Adam & Eve were the very first parents on earth.

The Church’s doctrinal position is utterly and demonstrably untenable.

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 Post subject: Re: Peterson throws Adam & Eve under the bus....
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:50 am 
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I have a question wrote:
The Church’s doctrinal stance:
There was no death before the fall of Adam.
The fall of Adam happened circa 4,000BCE.
Adam and Eve are literal people, not symbolic.
Adam & Eve were the very first parents on earth.

The Church’s doctrinal position is utterly and demonstrably untenable.

True. And this complete denial of scientific evidence is actually the best way to go about being a believer, in my opinion (as Moksha put it, going full Trump).

I’m somewhat confused as to how people mix in evolution as the mechanism of creation, diminishing their creator to a tinkerer who caused tiny changes over long time periods. That seems like a very inefficient, dumb way to create.

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 Post subject: Re: Peterson throws Adam & Eve under the bus....
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:14 am 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
This is all fine and good...as far as it goes...but the problem I see with this is that it simply excises/cuts out any meaningful "purpose" from in the universe. Purpose is only what you make it.

Doesn't your second sentence contradict your first sentence?[/quote]

No.

Regards,
MG[/quote]

I think MG is suggesting there is only one true "purpose", and that is to become like God. Purposes such as "learning to love", or "pursuing truth" could be nice but, but ultimately dissatisfying. But I could be wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Peterson throws Adam & Eve under the bus....
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:13 pm 
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krose wrote:
I have a question wrote:
The Church’s doctrinal stance:
There was no death before the fall of Adam.
The fall of Adam happened circa 4,000BCE.
Adam and Eve are literal people, not symbolic.
Adam & Eve were the very first parents on earth.

The Church’s doctrinal position is utterly and demonstrably untenable.

True. And this complete denial of scientific evidence is actually the best way to go about being a believer, in my opinion (as Moksha put it, going full Trump).

I’m somewhat confused as to how people mix in evolution as the mechanism of creation, diminishing their creator to a tinkerer who caused tiny changes over long time periods. That seems like a very inefficient, dumb way to create.

Of course there was lots of death before the FALL. Where does this nonsense come from? Planting a Garden and placing the advanced creatures in it was after the death of everything before it.

God has all power to comprehend sufficient to command DNA to do his will. He can use a host creature to bring forth the new creature. He proved this in the virgin birth of Jesus Christ. Eve's first conception was taken from her as it says in the scripture as that seed of the woman would crush the serpent's head. Jesus was a clone of the DNA of the Father. There is more in my New Mormon Theology linked below.

I hope the day will come when science oriented folks will stop pretending that there is so much EVIDENCE. The jig is up. Just because scholastic discipline requires all thoughts be framed consistent with the prevailing fancy of evolution being a fact does not prove evolution. That is as dumb as it is possible to get. This is absolute control. Satan loves such strictures.

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 Post subject: Re: Peterson throws Adam & Eve under the bus....
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:53 pm 
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Nightlion wrote:
The jig is up.


Too funny, Nightlion is introduced to the long debunked Watch Maker argument, presented by two bumbling novices and all of a sudden "the jig is up".


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