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 Post subject: Re: Internet vs. Chapel Mormon - UPenn Doctoral Dissertation
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:54 pm 
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However, why it was accepted as a thesis project in the first place is a little mystifying...

...says a self-styled "board member of the Mormon Studies program, sponsorered by the Howard Hunter Foundation, at the Department of Theology at Claremont College."

I'm confused.


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 Post subject: Re: Internet vs. Chapel Mormon - UPenn Doctoral Dissertation
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:37 pm 
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The scholars who founded the thing were gradually marginalized and eventually completely, completely driven out. And then the staff were left running it. And it turned out that some of the staff that had been hired didn’t like the purposes of the organization and have now turned it to make it more, as they see it, more academic.

It is like those put in charge of managing the Jesuits took a hard look at Dr. Tomas de Torquemada and his fellow Inquisitors and said, "Are we really serving Jesus with all of these excruciations to get confessions of deviltry? Seems our talents would be better served by getting out of the Inquisition business and perhaps becoming the shock troops for some New World missionary work."

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 Post subject: Re: Internet vs. Chapel Mormon - UPenn Doctoral Dissertation
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:24 pm 
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Morley wrote:
Yahoo Bot wrote:
However, why it was accepted as a thesis project in the first place is a little mystifying...

...says a self-styled "board member of the Mormon Studies program, sponsorered by the Howard Hunter Foundation, at the Department of Theology at Claremont College."

I'm confused.


Personally, I would have preferred that an institution as prestigious as UPenn would have encouraged her to study echoes of Elizabethan speech patterns in the Book of Mormon, or a study of anti-Mormon exhibitions at the World's Fair in the 1890s.

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 Post subject: Re: Internet vs. Chapel Mormon - UPenn Doctoral Dissertation
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:20 pm 
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Symmachus wrote:
Personally, I would have preferred that an institution as prestigious as UPenn would have encouraged her to study echoes of Elizabethan speech patterns in the Book of Mormon, or a study of anti-Mormon exhibitions at the World's Fair in the 1890s.


Wow.

https://smile.amazon.com/Exhibiting-Mormonism-Latter-day-Chicago-Religion/dp/0195384032/ref=mt_hardcover?_encoding=UTF8&me=


Got it. Thank you, Consul.


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 Post subject: Re: Internet vs. Chapel Mormon - UPenn Doctoral Dissertation
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:21 pm 
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With all due respect to the consul, and I do mean that sincerely, I think it was a fine choice for a dissertation topic, at least in theory. I have not read the dissertation, so I can't comment on whether it was a success or not. We are in our infant stage of coming to terms with the impact of the internet on human communication and community. Religion is a big part of that. And, the impact of the internet on Mormonism is huge, at least in first-world, Western countries. When I reflect on what I have seen on this board, and out in the blogosphere, I am astounded. The game has been changed by the Internet.

That said, if someone would prefer reading a dissertation on Joseph Smith's "translationese" in the Book of Mormon, I can understand the preference. That's a cool topic and it should get more attention.


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 Post subject: Re: Internet vs. Chapel Mormon - UPenn Doctoral Dissertation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:54 am 
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Morley wrote:
Yahoo Bot wrote:
However, why it was accepted as a thesis project in the first place is a little mystifying...

...says a self-styled "board member of the Mormon Studies program, sponsorered by the Howard Hunter Foundation, at the Department of Theology at Claremont College."

I'm confused.


Our dissertations tend to focus on feminism, the Lamanite program's history, Africa, China, Latin American, women's oral history projects, California settlement and the like. I'm not sure what you mean by self-styled. Have I said anything about it?


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 Post subject: Re: Internet vs. Chapel Mormon - UPenn Doctoral Dissertation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:02 am 
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Yahoo Bot wrote:
Morley wrote:
...says a self-styled "board member of the Mormon Studies program, sponsorered by the Howard Hunter Foundation, at the Department of Theology at Claremont College."

I'm confused.


Our dissertations tend to focus on feminism, the Lamanite program's history, Africa, China, Latin American, women's oral history projects, California settlement and the like. I'm not sure what you mean by self-styled. Have I said anything about it?


Please link to one of your dissertations. This is interesting.

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: Internet vs. Chapel Mormon - UPenn Doctoral Dissertation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:17 am 
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Yahoo Bot wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by self-styled. Have I said anything about it?


I'm quoting from your bio. Those are usually self-authored.


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 Post subject: Re: Internet vs. Chapel Mormon - UPenn Doctoral Dissertation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:41 am 
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Please link to one of your dissertations. This is interesting.

- Doc

They are not public and they are not mine to publish. There's at least one member of this board who is a doctoral student in the program although I haven't seen him recently. He is a mega poster on the other board; gay causes usually. A terrific guy although naturally my libertarian support for religious freedom conflicts with his ideas about the church butting its nose in peoples' private business.


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 Post subject: Re: Internet vs. Chapel Mormon - UPenn Doctoral Dissertation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:49 am 
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Yahoo Bot wrote:
They are not public and they are not mine to publish. There's at least one member of this board who is a doctoral student in the program although I haven't seen him recently. He is a mega poster on the other board; gay causes usually. A terrific guy although naturally my libertarian support for religious freedom conflicts with his ideas about the church butting its nose in peoples' private business.

You must mean something like, the Church should actively butt in and help gays rather than stand by as if neutral and keep out of people's affairs? (until the gay person comes out, and then rat him out to the SCMC and make life hell? that kind of libertarian stance?)

Cam, if she would have done her paper on horse bone evidence for the Book of Mormon then all good. Providing of course, she did no original research and quoted only from JSTOR.


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 Post subject: Re: Internet vs. Chapel Mormon - UPenn Doctoral Dissertation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:18 am 
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Gadianton wrote:
You must mean something like, the Church should actively butt in and help gays rather than stand by as if neutral and keep out of people's affairs? (until the gay person comes out, and then rat him out to the SCMC and make life hell? that kind of libertarian stance?)


No. not at all. I mean that the church ought to able to say that homosexual practice is a sin and disables one from full fellowship, and have the freedom to say it in public. Just like gays should have the right to have full access to public and commercial services without discrimination. Libertarianism would teach that laws should not be enacted to enforce those rights, nor prop up religions and religious freedom (or, for example, the right to own guns). Libertarianism teaches that tort law should be used to enforce rights. There should be, further, nothing from restricting pompous idiots from being such. (No, I'm not referring to you.)


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 Post subject: Re: Internet vs. Chapel Mormon - UPenn Doctoral Dissertation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:26 am 
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Yahoo Bot wrote:
I mean that the church ought to able to say that homosexual practice is a sin and disables one from full fellowship, and have the freedom to say it in public.


Should the Church also be able to say that being black is a sign of God’s displeasure and disables one from full fellowship, and have the freedom to say that in public?

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― Daniel Kahneman, Nobel Prize Winner, 'Thinking, Fast and Slow'


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 Post subject: Re: Internet vs. Chapel Mormon - UPenn Doctoral Dissertation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:28 am 
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I have a question wrote:
Yahoo Bot wrote:
I mean that the church ought to able to say that homosexual practice is a sin and disables one from full fellowship, and have the freedom to say it in public.


Should the Church also be able to say that being black is a sign of God’s displeasure and disables one from full fellowship, and have the freedom to say that in public?


Absolutely. The LDS church should own its racism, and the public should feel free to shun them.

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: Internet vs. Chapel Mormon - UPenn Doctoral Dissertation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:44 am 
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Yahoo Bot wrote:
Gadianton wrote:
You must mean something like, the Church should actively butt in and help gays rather than stand by as if neutral and keep out of people's affairs? (until the gay person comes out, and then rat him out to the SCMC and make life hell? that kind of libertarian stance?)


No. not at all. I mean that the church ought to able to say that homosexual practice is a sin and disables one from full fellowship, and have the freedom to say it in public. Just like gays should have the right to have full access to public and commercial services without discrimination. Libertarianism would teach that laws should not be enacted to enforce those rights, nor prop up religions and religious freedom (or, for example, the right to own guns). Libertarianism teaches that tort law should be used to enforce rights. There should be, further, nothing from restricting pompous idiots from being such. (No, I'm not referring to you.)


Is the church somehow prohibited from speaking on these issues or is it that society speaks against the church when it does and you don't like that?

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 Post subject: Re: Internet vs. Chapel Mormon - UPenn Doctoral Dissertation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:57 am 
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Yahoo Bot wrote:
Gadianton wrote:
You must mean something like, the Church should actively butt in and help gays rather than stand by as if neutral and keep out of people's affairs? (until the gay person comes out, and then rat him out to the SCMC and make life hell? that kind of libertarian stance?)


No. not at all. I mean that the church ought to able to say that homosexual practice is a sin and disables one from full fellowship, and have the freedom to say it in public.


This is a straw horse. Religious liberty is not under siege. No one is saying the Church doesn't have the right to "say that homosexual practice is a sin and disables one from full fellowship." It's not only so-called Libertarians who defend the right to mutter blatantly stupid things.


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 Post subject: Re: Internet vs. Chapel Mormon - UPenn Doctoral Dissertation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:03 am 
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Morley wrote:
Religious liberty is not under siege.


Of course it isn’t, but that’s the Trojan Horse the Church would like to use in order to impose Mormonism on the unbaptised masses.

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― Daniel Kahneman, Nobel Prize Winner, 'Thinking, Fast and Slow'


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 Post subject: Re: Internet vs. Chapel Mormon - UPenn Doctoral Dissertation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:24 am 
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I have a question wrote:
Morley wrote:
Religious liberty is not under siege.


Of course it isn’t, but that’s the Trojan Horse the Church would like to use in order to impose Mormonism on the unbaptised masses.


I think, also, it is part of their counter-attack after defeat in the supreme court. Their view of "religious liberty" is the right to govern the masses that they believe comes from God. It is styled right now in the context of playing the victim due to the above defeat but it is really about their bitching because people are turning away from the priest class and becoming more secularized.

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 Post subject: Re: Internet vs. Chapel Mormon - UPenn Doctoral Dissertation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:35 am 
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Exiled wrote:
I think, also, it is part of their counter-attack after defeat in the supreme court. Their view of "religious liberty" is the right to govern the masses that they believe comes from God. It is styled right now in the context of playing the victim due to the above defeat but it is really about their bitching because people are turning away from the priest class and becoming more secularized.


I agree. They are losing relevance, and therefore authority and income.

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“A reliable way to make people believe in falsehoods is frequent repetition, because familiarity is not easily distinguished from truth. Authoritarian institutions and marketers have always known this fact.”
― Daniel Kahneman, Nobel Prize Winner, 'Thinking, Fast and Slow'


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 Post subject: Re: Internet vs. Chapel Mormon - UPenn Doctoral Dissertation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:06 am 
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Hey Yahoo! :smile:
Yahoo Bot wrote:
I mean that the church ought to able to say that homosexual practice is a sin and disables one from full fellowship, and have the freedom to say it in public.


Just curious - Is the sin of practicing homosexuality the only sin that the LDS church ought to be able to have the freedom to project in public and prevent full fellowship?

Of the approximate 125 sins that are listed in the Bible - are there any other sins that would result in the LDS church taking the very same stance? How about bearing false witness?

In other words, how many Mormons do you know that are sinless? If the answer is none (I don't know a single person who is) - how can the LDS church allow "full fellowship" to anyone?

Just curious and thanks.

Peace,
Ceeboo


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 Post subject: Re: Internet vs. Chapel Mormon - UPenn Doctoral Dissertation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:51 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wow. Shades was really onto something when he set the narrative that a divide exists within the LDS church between Internet Mormons and Chapel Mormons.


This really shouldn't come as any great surprise. Believe it or not, however, they coexist quite well as a rule. :smile:

Regards,
MG


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 Post subject: Re: Internet vs. Chapel Mormon - UPenn Doctoral Dissertation
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:53 am 
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Ceeboo wrote:
Hey Yahoo! :smile:

Yahoo Bot wrote:
I mean that the church ought to able to say that homosexual practice is a sin and disables one from full fellowship, and have the freedom to say it in public.

Just curious - Is the sin of practicing homosexuality the only sin that the LDS church ought to be able to have the freedom to project in public and prevent full fellowship?

Of the approximate 125 sins that are listed in the Bible - are there any other sins that would result in the LDS church taking the very same stance? How about bearing false witness?

In other words, how many Mormons do you know that are sinless? If the answer is none (I don't know a single person who is) - how can the LDS church allow "full fellowship" to anyone?

Just curious and thanks.

Peace,
Ceeboo

Excellent point, Ceeboo.

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