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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:26 pm 
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grindael wrote:
Shulem,

You knocked it out of the park here. PLEASE publish this. Even a short piece in a historical journal would be great. I give you a TEN. And Anubis always wore a headdress, so that is the reason for the strange shape of the head. Notice part of it can be seen in the penciled in lines on the shoulder that were not used. They are useless, except for something that was there, but that they did not need after it was changed. I'm all for having a bit of fun, but this is very serious and important discovery and your website should reflect that more IMO.

I echo Grindael’s request. Please publish this. You will have a lot of backing if you decide to do it, Paul.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:53 pm 
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Paul, I looked again at the carving, the markings in the rectangular boxes above the figures heads, and the edges and positioning of those boxes, i think lends further credence to your hypothesis.

If the typical box shape of that rectangle as seen over the heads of the other figures is indeed typical, then it is an anomaly that the box edges are much further away from the round face of the anubis face. Even though there is room, the rectangle is incomplete.

If that rectangle had unfinished borders because of the proximity of the snout then it would be consistent with the rectangles over the other figures. However, if he had to chisel away a snout, then what is left is an unfinished rectangle, too far away from the anubis figure and inconsistent with the other shapes.


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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:03 pm 
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grindael wrote:
Shulem,

You knocked it out of the park here. PLEASE publish this. Even a short piece in a historical journal would be great. I give you a TEN. And Anubis always wore a headdress, so that is the reason for the strange shape of the head. Notice part of it can be seen in the penciled in lines on the shoulder that were not used. They are useless, except for something that was there, but that they did not need after it was changed. I'm all for having a bit of fun, but this is very serious and important discovery and your website should reflect that more IMO.


What he said.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:01 pm 
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grindael wrote:
Shulem,

You knocked it out of the park here. PLEASE publish this. Even a short piece in a historical journal would be great. I give you a TEN. And Anubis always wore a headdress, so that is the reason for the strange shape of the head. Notice part of it can be seen in the penciled in lines on the shoulder that were not used. They are useless, except for something that was there, but that they did not need after it was changed. I'm all for having a bit of fun, but this is very serious and important discovery and your website should reflect that more IMO.


Thanks for your vote of confidence. Right now I'm more interested in seeing how things develop and learn more about the leadcut process and how the physical evidence shows there was an original snout carved into a jackal head. Egyptology conclusively proves that Anubis is Anubis and the hieroglyphic label is proof of the pudding.

Which "penciled in lines" were you referring to, specifically? I don't see any definitive pencil lines on the shoulder of Fig. 6., -- cracks perhaps but not pencil lines per-se.

The church has practically gotten away with murder with the pretended translation and interpretation of Anubis in taking sacred writings from another religion and desecrating it for their own selfish purposes. This is going to end. It will no longer be tolerated and I feel it's time for the church to apologize and end the slander. The LDS church today stands accountable and their continuous denials and slandering of ancient Egypt will only get them into more hot water. The Facsimile No. 3 in LDS canon is crooked and evil. It should be removed without further delay. Surely voices from the dust (tombs) and the gods of ancient Egypt demand it!

I would like to think that world religions Christian or otherwise would also demand The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints end their official defamation and slander against the ancient Egyptian religion. It needs to stop. It must stop!


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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:19 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
Paul, I looked again at the carving, the markings in the rectangular boxes above the figures heads, and the edges and positioning of those boxes, i think lends further credence to your hypothesis.

If the typical box shape of that rectangle as seen over the heads of the other figures is indeed typical, then it is an anomaly that the box edges are much further away from the round face of the anubis face. Even though there is room, the rectangle is incomplete.

If that rectangle had unfinished borders because of the proximity of the snout then it would be consistent with the rectangles over the other figures. However, if he had to chisel away a snout, then what is left is an unfinished rectangle, too far away fromthe anubis figure and inconsistent with the other shapes.

The three registers above Anubis pay homage to Anubis. The writing on the printed version reads from left to right. The first register says, "Words' spoken by Anubis" and there is no question that it's Anubis below doing the talking, not a slave.

Had there been no snout protruding from a jackal face the hieroglyphic characters may have descended further down into his face just as they do in Maat's face, Fig. 4. But clearly, the snout owned the original space and the writing knew its bounds.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:25 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
Lemmie wrote:
Paul, I looked again at the carving, the markings in the rectangular boxes above the figures heads, and the edges and positioning of those boxes, i think lends further credence to your hypothesis.

If the typical box shape of that rectangle as seen over the heads of the other figures is indeed typical, then it is an anomaly that the box edges are much further away from the round face of the anubis face. Even though there is room, the rectangle is incomplete.

If that rectangle had unfinished borders because of the proximity of the snout then it would be consistent with the rectangles over the other figures. However, if he had to chisel away a snout, then what is left is an unfinished rectangle, too far away fromthe anubis figure and inconsistent with the other shapes.

The three registers above Anubis pay homage to Anubis. The writing on the printed version reads from left to right. The first register says, "Words' spoken by Anubis" and there is no question that it's Anubis below doing the talking, not a slave.

Had there been no snout protruding from a jackal face the hieroglyphic characters may have descended further down into his face just as they do in Maat's face, Fig. 4. But clearly, the snout owned the original space and the writing knew its bounds.

Thank you for the info, so it would be more consistent if it were further down. And, that last sentence I bolded? :lol: Priceless. Please please please, put that sentence in your final write-up!!


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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:07 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
What he said.


But what do you say, 1-10? I don't believe you've voted, Maksutov. You need to voice your opinion so I can add you to the list.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:56 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
What he said.


But what do you say, 1-10? I don't believe you've voted, Maksutov. You need to voice your opinion so I can add you to the list.


What I see in the picture convinces me 80%. What I know of the circumstances convinces me 90%. So put me down for 85%. Or whatever nearest number suits you.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:07 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:20 pm 
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Jesse Pinkman wrote:
I was not aware that Dan had mentioned Paul's research. Do you have a link? I don't know what was said. I have never discussed this with him.

Patheos

noel 15 days ago wrote:
I am curious if do you check the "other board" as one of the many "guests" and read Shulem's contribution on the possible alteration of the 'snout' of the "slave" "Anubis" Like Kerry Shirts Shulem was an avid defender of the church. What does the writing above the figure indicate as to who this figure is?

DanielPeterson 14 days ago wrote:
I haven't looked at it, but I will.

Incidentally, yes, I check in on your board from time to time. I've said so repeatedly, for years. I find it fascinating.

One of the fascinating (or, at least, amusing) things about it is that, periodically, some of the denizens there discover evidence that I look at it occasionally. And this, they imagine, is a big discovery that plainly proves false my denials that I ever look at it -- denials that I've never, ever, made.

noel 14 days ago wrote:
Can't you see it looks like the snout has been chiseled out?. And he has the ear like other representations of Anubis? What is your opinion?

DanielPeterson 14 days ago wrote:
I don't have an opinion yet. I've been busy.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:51 pm 
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grindael wrote:
ImageImage


I'm going to have have to hold this thought on the curved pencil line and those cracks until I can wrap my head around it a little more. My original thoughts were that the curved crack was a design flaw or a sloppy swipe into the plate. See the curve line(s) swiped into the left foot below. I assumed they were of the same type as that on the shoulder/back.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:13 pm 
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Who has physical custody of the plate? Some photomicrography would help.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:05 pm 
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The following two pieces of LDS art attempt to glorify the Facsimile No. 3 and you'll please note that they have further altered the head of Anubis to suit their own idealistic fancy of the pitiful Explanations of Facsimile No. 3.

What do YOU see that jumps out and screams FRAUD?

I'll save you the trouble and just tell you. The jackal ear atop the head has been turned into a a decorative object and a human ear has been factitiously carved into the side of the head behind the redesigned humanized eye.

Mormons love to deceive! It started with Joseph Smith and it continues today. Lies and more lies.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:27 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
Who has physical custody of the plate? Some photomicrography would help.


I think the church historian office will grant approval to persons deemed appropriate to study the plate but whether the photos or discussions of them are made public is another matter. The church is not in the business of reporting things that aren't considered faith promoting. It certainly isn't faith promoting to suggest that Joseph Smith scrubbed a god's head to convert it into a slave. That's won't go over too well at all. But scholars and researchers will want to know the facts. Once the news circulates around that there is claim to a missing jackal snout there will be questions and requests made to the church historian office.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:55 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
Who has physical custody of the plate? Some photomicrography would help.


I think the church historian office will grant approval to persons deemed appropriate to study the plate but whether the photos or discussions of them are made public is another matter. The church is not in the business of reporting things that aren't considered faith promoting. It certainly isn't faith promoting to suggest that Joseph Smith scrubbed a god's head to convert it into a slave. That's won't go over too well at all. But scholars and researchers will want to know the facts. Once the news circulates around that there is claim to a missing jackal snout there will be questions and requests made to the church historian office.

I wonder if you would be able to succeed at being able to see any of these things up close. It would be interesting to find out what kind of process would be involved in putting together such a request.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:10 pm 
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Jesse Pinkman wrote:
I wonder if you would be able to succeed at being able to see any of these things up close. It would be interesting to find out what kind of process would be involved in putting together such a request.


No one is going to be allowed to see the plate except for those who are given special approval and have gone through the official process to generate such a request. What does that entail? It will take persons of interest such as John Gee and DCP. There will have to be consultation regarding what specialists will be involved in examining the plate and the photos that result.

I think it's reasonable to assume that John Gee would want to get to the bottom of this. I'm sure DCP would too. They will want to know. No question about that. I have to think that the results will be devastating to John Gee and his shelf might finally break. John Gee, no doubt, has a certain love and fascination towards ancient Egypt and the desecration of Anubis will turn his stomach. It won't be easy for him.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:50 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
Jesse Pinkman wrote:
I wonder if you would be able to succeed at being able to see any of these things up close. It would be interesting to find out what kind of process would be involved in putting together such a request.


No one is going to be allowed to see the plate except for those who are given special approval and have gone through the official process to generate such a request. What does that entail? It will take persons of interest such as John Gee and DCP. There will have to be consultation regarding what specialists will be involved in examining the plate and the photos that result.

I think it's reasonable to assume that John Gee would want to get to the bottom of this. I'm sure DCP would too. They will want to know. No question about that. I have to think that the results will be devastating to John Gee and his shelf might finally break. John Gee, no doubt, has a certain love and fascination towards ancient Egypt and the desecration of Anubis will turn his stomach. It won't be easy for him.


I think you entirely misunderstand Gee's apologetic spirituality. ANY LDS scholar is going to down play this if not outright ignore it. They usually twist things to suit their ends, or ignore them in the hopes it just goes away. I predict this won't phase Gee at all. And I guarantee you they will, if they publish, and give you credit (DCP might plagiarize this :biggrin: ) they will attack you, your lack of credentials, your lack of Mormon morals, whatever they can drum up. Please don't get discouraged by this however, in the long run it is the ultimate compliment, but expect the mudslinging, it could be on the way.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:58 pm 
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Shulem


Where did you get the translation of the words above Anubis ?

"The writing in the label above me testifies: "Recitation by Anubis, who makes protection, foremost of the embalming booth""

I'd like that when I explain to my LDS friends how Smith got it all wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:48 pm 
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aussieguy55 wrote:
Shulem


Where did you get the translation of the words above Anubis ?

"The writing in the label above me testifies: "Recitation by Anubis, who makes protection, foremost of the embalming booth""

I'd like that when I explain to my LDS friends how Smith got it all wrong.


aussieguy55,

You'll benefit greatly by reading this lengthy page on Mormon Think which addresses the Facsimiles using authoritative citations and references. The name "Anubis" is actually a Greek rendition for the Egyptian Inpu.

Mormon Think The Book of Abraham

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:39 pm 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
I think you entirely misunderstand Gee's apologetic spirituality


Maybe, maybe not. Only Gee can know for sure how he truly feels about his apologetic and testimony. What is left for us is to speculate.

Philo Sofee wrote:
ANY LDS scholar is going to down play this if not outright ignore it.


Play it down on the surface, perhaps. Ignore it, how hardly. They may pretend to act like they are ignoring it and give the impression they are playing it down but how hardly will that negate their need to know: Was a snout first carved in the plate??

Philo Sofee wrote:
They usually twist things to suit their ends, or ignore them in the hopes it just goes away.


Yes, this is exactly what LDS apologists do in order to defend their cause and maintain the image that their gospel is iron clad truth. Hoping it just goes away is certainly how the church deals with a great many historical problems. But problems just don't go away, they are only avoided.

Philo Sofee wrote:
I predict this won't phase Gee at all.


You're wrong. It won't go well with him. It's another straw on a heavily laden back and I'm not talking about Camel cigarettes. It will stick in his craw and prove to be another obstacle that he can't jump over.

Philo Sofee wrote:
And I guarantee you they will, if they publish, and give you credit


I absolutely agree. The INTERNET data is printed and time stamped. It's my discovery and it would serve no purpose to try and negate or deny that.

Philo Sofee wrote:
(DCP might plagiarize this :biggrin:


He won't. If anything he will take pleasure in the fact that he knows who I am and has even met me in Texas.

Philo Sofee wrote:
they will attack you


Yes, they most certainly will. LDS apologists love to attack.

Philo Sofee wrote:
your lack of credentials


Yes, that they will. BUT, they are still going to want to know if a snout was original to the plate and will credit me for being the first to ask!

Philo Sofee wrote:
your lack of Mormon morals


Indeed, they love to point fingers and judge others for being immoral. In my case they can laugh about how the former amateur Book of Abraham apologist lost his testimony and became a homosexual.

Philo Sofee wrote:
whatever they can drum up


Let them beat their silly apologetic drum all they want. The fact is, Anubis is not a slave, his name is written in the writing above him, and Joseph Smith had his snout hacked out.

Philo Sofee wrote:
Please don't get discouraged by this however, in the long run it is the ultimate compliment, but expect the mudslinging, it could be on the way.


I won't get discouraged. Let them attack me and belittle me all they want. If they do, I predict others (Egyptologists) will come to my defense and overwhelm them. I have all of Egyptology on my side and it will defend me. The gods of Egypt are also on my side.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:52 am 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
I predict this won't phase Gee at all.


Again, I beg to differ with you and offer more perspective on why I do.

You will agree that John Gee is first and foremost loyal to being a Latter-day Saint and pledges his upmost devotion to his God and church. This is his primary focus and objective in life. Second, he is devoted to his family, and finally -- of course, his employment to include his salary and career path.

Take into consideration his first devotion which is God. All of this, however, is based on faith and the hope that these things are true, basing this on feelings and spiritual manifestation which he interprets to be messages to him from God. Nonetheless, this is all based on faith and that means having to walk blindly holding on to that iron rod with the hope it leads him to the fountain or final reward.

But then there is his career, Egyptology and teaching at BYU. This of course takes on a different kind of loyalty and is not subject to the same kinds of spiritual bonds and commitments as is church and God. The main difference, however, is that these matters are not based on faith or hope. It's based on facts and proofs that are learned through the various disciplines of science. No faith is needed. Hope is not required. God is not in the picture. We are talking about Egyptology and that which makes it functional and comprehensible. This is where John Gee runs into problems. Facsimile No. 3 is a prime example wherein faith and church are squarely pitted against science and Egyptology. It's a direct contradiction and along with it leaves an uncomfortable dilemma that requires one's faith to exercise cog dissonance.

John Gee chooses loyalty to his God and church through his faith. But in doing so, he becomes disloyal to his profession, more especially to Egyptology. He fails to take into consideration true history and shows lack of regard to the faith and hope held by the ancient Egyptians who understood the true meaning of Facsimile No. 3. In a sense, John Gee is a traitor to the people he should be upholding and dishonors their memory. The primary focus of any good Egyptologist is to uphold true Egyptian history and act as guardians for the ancients here in modern times. It is the responsibility of every Egyptologist to protect and serve the ancient Egyptians by representing them in the most accurate way possible. The ancients would expect no less just as we expect no less of future man to remember us for who and what we really are today.

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