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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:28 am 
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You're creating a profound case here, Paul. What is compelling is how much these Book of Abraham "translation" flaws impact not only this scripture, but the legitimacy of the Book of Mormon as well.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:10 am 
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Consig,

If you're reading this, how about having Shulem on your next podcast to discuss this issue?

It would be most interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:38 am 
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Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Consig,

If you're reading this, how about having Shulem on your next podcast to discuss this issue?

It would be most interesting.

For once, we agree on something. That’s a great idea, if Paul is willing.

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So you're chasing around a fly and in your world, I'm the idiot?

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"And that is precisely why none of us apologize for holding it to the celestial standard it pretends that it possesses." Kerry, MormonDiscussions.com
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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:48 am 
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Jesse Pinkman wrote:
You're creating a profound case here, Paul. What is compelling is how much these Book of Abraham "translation" flaws impact not only this scripture, but the legitimacy of the Book of Mormon as well.


Yes, I agree, this case is evolving and taking amazing shape and what's appearing is going to strike fear into the minds of remaining apologists who defend the Book of Abraham. All this is very bad news for them. I would not have wanted to have dealt with this issue when I was an apologist who fully advocated the catalyst theory -- supporting Smith's inspired right to paint and color his story in accordance to the Spirit's direction.

But what to do with all the flaws? That's a problem for the apologists and they have in effect kept a back door open in which to walk away from the Facsimiles once the shelf becomes too heavy to hold up. Take Jeff Lindsay for example. His website contains a statement which actually serves as a disclaimer whereby he said: "But the Facsimiles are not said to be sacred or divinely inspired". Wow, just wow, Lindsay in effect has a bus on standby ready to run over the Facsimiles when the going gets too tough to handle. His final answer is they aren't sacred or inspired so church members aren't obligated to accept them as such.

But wait! Explanations from Facsimile No. 2 declare otherwise and are binding upon the church seeing they have been canonized -- they are revelations and were approved by the First Presidency and vote of the Church in 1880. These things most certainly are considered sacred and inspired. Jeff Lindsay has thrown the prophet under the bus!

Joseph Smith wrote:
Fig. 8. Contains writings that cannot be revealed unto the world; but is to be had in the Holy Temple of God.
Fig. 9. Ought not to be revealed at the present time.


Thus we see that Joseph Smith's translated revelations of things within Facsimile No. 2 are directly associated with the holy temple and therefore require revelation in order to be "revealed". But all this goes over the feeble mind of Jeff Lindsay, a liar for the Lord.

Oh, my, I started this post to make an entirely different point in response to your post. I'll need to make that point in another post.

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Last edited by Shulem on Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:49 am 
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Jesse Pinkman wrote:
Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Consig,

If you're reading this, how about having Shulem on your next podcast to discuss this issue?

It would be most interesting.

For once, we agree on something. That’s a great idea, if Paul is willing.


Although my boyfriend would love to see me do something like that I remain reserved at this time. I don't do well in the spotlight and I'm afraid it would be a bit much for me.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:13 am 
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Jesse Pinkman wrote:
You're creating a profound case here, Paul. What is compelling is how much these Book of Abraham "translation" flaws impact not only this scripture, but the legitimacy of the Book of Mormon as well.


Yes. Not only is it profound it's mathematical when you consider all the elements of the evidence and just how they add up. Think of it as balancing scales tipping in favor of fraud because of the heavy weight of evidence stacked on one side. The only thing in favor for the opposing side is faith and hope that Joseph Smith was a prophet and so the Book of Abraham is therefore true. Never mind all the evidence that shows he's a fraud because personal testimony of the prophet trumps all. But at some point the scale becomes so heavy you just can't hold it up so the shelf finally collapses on the person trying to hold it up. Hence the apologist is forced to drive the bus and run anything over that threatens his faith.

Then there is another way of looking at it. Think of algebra. Consider the concept of trying to solve a complicated equation using basic laws of math -- working the equation from the inside out. You have to simplify and solve for X. I think this whole thing with the missing jackal snout is very important to a Book of Abraham equation. I see the jackal snout as being an X and solving it proves that Smith's work is a total fraud.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:59 am 
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Last edited by Jersey Girl on Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:04 pm 
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Last edited by Jersey Girl on Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:44 pm 
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Fascinating stuff, Shulem.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:01 pm 
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Last edited by Jersey Girl on Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:02 pm 
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Thank you Jersey Girl for your compliments and vote of confidence in my ability to produce. I'm not sure how much I plan to contribute to the cause in writing more material for public consumption seeing I've already wasted so much of my life on the Book of Abraham -- so to speak. Actually, it's not a waste of time but I was simply on the wrong side if you know what I mean.

I really want to see how far this jackal snout can go and see how things play out. It isn't going to go well for the church and apologists will scramble trying to come up with some kind of consensus. One thing is for sure, the church leaders won't take a stand on anything. They are cowards and are scared to death of the Book of Abraham. They are at an utter loss and refuse to say anything about it. It's always been that way.

Philo Sofee inspired me with a winning concept which is to just keep quoting Joseph Smith. Quote him and what those with him believed. That's all that really matters. Saints today have NO say. They weren't there and can't speak for Joseph Smith and their apologetic twisting and distortions have no relevance. Mormons today are not the Mormons of yesterday and they don't represent what Joseph Smith actually said. They are left to decide whether to take his words at face value or continue to dance around them while they sing their song.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:43 pm 
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***ATTENTION***

I HAVE JUST MADE A MAJOR DISCOVERY AND HAVE COME TO A REALIZATION IN WHICH CORRECTS A MAJOR MISNOMER ABOUT THE PRODUCTION OF THE FACSIMILES!

I'M SITTING HERE TOTALLY SHOCKED AND NOW THIS REQUIRES A WHOLE NEW APPROACH! THOSE WHO ARE INTERESTED IN MY DISCOVERY OF THE JACKAL SNOUT ARE GOING TO SEE THINGS IN A NEW LIGHT.

HELP!

I WILL ANNOUNCE MY PERSONAL DISCOVERY SHORTLY!

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:39 pm 
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***I'M GOING TO HAVE TO POST THIS IN ALL THREE THREADS TO KEEP MY DISCOVERY CONSISTENT AND HAVE JUST CORRECTED MY WEBSITE TO REFLECT THE CHANGE***

I've been studying the plates to make the Facsimiles and have realized that the medium used to create the plates is NOT wood! Wood is a misnomer! The medium in which Reuben Hedlock actually carved the plates is a type of clay lead that was hardened and made suitable for the press. I realized this by scanning close images of all three plates and you can see that the clay lead is actually fastened to woodwork via screws but the once friable medium in which the work was carved was clay lead. Also, I was able to determine that Hedlock used gridlines (see upper corner of Facsimile No. 2 plate) in which to establish his perimeters and size.

Hence, the clay lead was molded and swiped with fine tools to create the images and writing of the Facsimiles. I'm more than ever convinced that the snout was first carved in clay and later chiseled out. Signs of this are right there in CLAY LEAD!

Look out LDS apologists! Your ass is grass!

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Last edited by Shulem on Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:16 pm 
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Shulem wrote:

Look out LDS apologists! Your ass is grass!


Said the lawnmower...

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:30 pm 
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Here's a close up view of the hypocephalus. You can see the excess medium around the border of the plate. Image is too large to post here.

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/media/96 ... simile.jpg

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:31 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
***I'M GOING TO HAVE TO POST THIS IN ALL THREE THREADS TO KEEP MY DISCOVERY CONSISTENT AND HAVE JUST CORRECTED MY WEBSITE TO REFLECT THE CHANGE***

I've been studying the plates to make the Facsimiles and have realized that the medium used to create the plates is NOT wood! Wood is a misnomer! The medium in which Reuben Hedlock actually carved the plates is a type of clay that was hardened and made suitable for the press. I realized this by scanning close images of all three plates and you can see that the clay is actually fastened to woodwork via screws but the once friable medium in which the work was carved was clay. Also, I was able to determine that Hedlock used gridlines (see upper corner of Facsimile No. 2 plate) in which to establish his perimeters and size.

Hence, the clay was molded and swiped with fine tools to create the images and writing of the Facsimiles. I'm more than ever convinced that the snout was first carved in clay and later chiseled out. Signs of this are right there in CLAY!

Look out LDS apologists! Your ass is grass!


I am be no means knowledgeable in antiquated printing methods, but, a cursory googling of "19th century clay-cuts for printing" doesn't return much.

Now, I am no big fan of end-zone chicken dance celebrations, but will make exceptions. I kinda think you're a little premature, and need some more research. When you do pin this down though, count me in on your skit. (end-zone dance skits are the craze right now in the NFL) Get it done Shu, I'm rooting for you!


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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:51 pm 
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Check into zinc, Paul.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:53 pm 
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Quote:
Intaglio[edit]



Main article: Intaglio (printmaking)
Intaglio /ɪnˈtæli.oʊ/ is a family of printmaking techniques in which the image is incised into a surface, known as the matrix or plate. Normally, copper or zinc plates are used as a surface, and the incisions are created by etching, engraving, drypoint, aquatint or mezzotint. Collographs may also be printed as intaglio plates. To print an intaglio plate the surface is covered in thick ink and then rubbed with tarlatan cloth to remove most of the excess. The final smooth wipe is usually done by hand, sometimes with the aid of newspaper or old public phone book pages, leaving ink only in the incisions. A damp piece of paper is placed on top and the plate and paper are run through a printing press that, through pressure, transfers the ink from the recesses of the plate to the paper.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... aphy_(1796)


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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:04 pm 
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It's LEAD

Quote:
This lead plate was engraved by Reuben Hedlock as part of the printing of the book of Abraham in the Church’s newspaper the Times and Seasons. Joseph Smith worked on the translation off and on between the summer of 1835 and the spring of 1842. All five chapters of the book of Abraham, along with three illustrations (now known as facsimiles 1, 2, and 3), were published between March and May 1842.


https://history.LDS.org/exhibit/foundat ... g=eng#mv13

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:06 pm 
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One thing is for sure. It's not wood. That changes the manner in which the medium was manipulated.

More shall be revealed . . . .

:idea:

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 Post subject: Re: NEW BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:08 pm 
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LEAD!

kisses and hugs!!

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