All or Nothing Mentality

[_honorentheos]

Being honest? I don't think Mormons are all that great as far as people go. There are great people I know who are also Mormon as there are great people of many other worldviews. But as a community, and being outside it more than inside it for about a decade, they also have some big ugly warts as a community that aren't all that admirable. Yeah, it's nice that a member of the group can count on instant social support structures within any given ward framework throughout the US and possibly most of the world. But you also get the political BS, the feel-good epistemological approach to life that leads to non-stop "just so" stories serving to justify EVERYTHING that pops into their minds, people who fetishize business and read the same book over and over and over because it's the most perfect book to the detriment of other reading. People who view Winter's Bone and Porky's as being in the same category of movie because they are both rated R, trade in the weirdest evangelical beliefs about everything from Stairway to Heaven played backwards having a secret message about loving Satan to Hillary Clinton being guilty of murder and possibly evil as they come, people who can't drive past a strip club without commenting about it*, guys who have zero idea how patriarchal their foundational beliefs are so they just act like being born with a penis puts them in charge...and on and on and on...

I don't know. I think when someone buys that worldview knowing the faults because they like the community features, they are choosing to live with those problems as a trade-off. Not because it's the best option on the market.


* Some years ago I worked under an active member here in Phoenix. There was a strip club off of one of the freeway off ramps we frequently had to drive past to and from a prominent client, and they had a picture on one of the windows of a scantily clad woman in a provocative pose. Every time we passed it, he'd comment about how much he wished they'd take it down, how much it offended him, how he was upset that it was allowed to be displayed in public, etc.

After at least a year, with diminishing reason to believe he was ever going to change in sight, I finally told him what I thought - that I personally didn't think much of it one way or the other because I didn't carry it with me. And frankly I'd probably never think about it at all if he stopped bringing it up, so please stop bringing it up.

This is just one of countless examples of what I find to be LDS member's difficult relationship with things that they view as sin so they find it impossible not to dwell on all the worldly stuff going on around them that is sinful. Because that's healthy.

[_Sophocles]

When other Christians ask me why I thew out the baby with the bathwater upon rejecting Mormonism, I ask them to consider a similar situation.

Suppose you find out that Jesus was not the Christ. Either he was just a man, or else he never existed all. Regardless, he was never your Lord, God, and Savior. The New Testament is a hoax, Christianity is a fraud.

Would you revert to Judaism? Would you still believe in Abraham and Moses and the rest of the Old Testament? After all, whether Jesus is Lord has no bearing on any of that. If you believed in them before finding out the "truth" about Jesus, why should that change?

Most Christians tend to admit that they probably wouldn't "revert" to Judaism, because that's not how their faith is structured. They are Christians first and foremost, and everything else stems from that. They didn't start out believing in the Old Testament, and then decide that Jesus was the most likely Messiah that the old patriarchs foretold. They started with the belief in Jesus and only believe in the Old Testament because Jesus did. Without his endorsement the Old Testament suddenly looks kind of far-fetched.

I was the same way as a Mormon. It starts and ends with Joseph Smith. I never had a foundation in Christianity or Judaism or even theism. I believed first and foremost in Joseph Smith, and my belief in God and the scriptures grew out of that. I believed in God because Smith saw him. I believed in the Bible et al because Joseph Smith did. Take him away, and you yank the rug out from under everything else.

So once I realized Mormonism was a fraud I had no reason to believe in anything. I was starting over with a clean slate. Maybe some people considering the question of gods, angels, and demons from the perspective of an educated adult find reasons to believe in their existence, but I wasn't one of them.

[_Philo Sofee]

When other Christians ask me why I thew out the baby with the bathwater upon rejecting Mormonism, I ask them to consider a similar situation.

Suppose you find out that Jesus was not the Christ. Either he was just a man, or else he never existed all. Regardless, he was never your Lord, God, and Savior. The New Testament is a hoax, Christianity is a fraud.

Would you revert to Judaism? Would you still believe in Abraham and Moses and the rest of the Old Testament? After all, whether Jesus is Lord has no bearing on any of that. If you believed in them before finding out the "truth" about Jesus, why should that change?

Most Christians tend to admit that they probably wouldn't "revert" to Judaism, because that's not how their faith is structured. They are Christians first and foremost, and everything else stems from that. They didn't start out believing in the Old Testament, and then decide that Jesus was the most likely Messiah that the old patriarchs foretold. They started with the belief in Jesus and only believe in the Old Testament because Jesus did. Without his endorsement the Old Testament suddenly looks kind of far-fetched.

I was the same way as a Mormon. It starts and ends with Joseph Smith. I never had a foundation in Christianity or Judaism or even theism. I believed first and foremost in Joseph Smith, and my belief in God and the scriptures grew out of that. I believed in God because Smith saw him. I believed in the Bible et al because Joseph Smith did. Take him away, and you yank the rug out from under everything else.

So once I realized Mormonism was a fraud I had no reason to believe in anything. I was starting over with a clean slate. Maybe some people considering the question of gods, angels, and demons from the perspective of an educated adult find reasons to believe in their existence, but I wasn't one of them.

Superb...... simply superb.

[_mentalgymnast]

... I believed first and foremost in Joseph Smith, and my belief in God and the scriptures grew out of that. I believed in God because Smith saw him. I believed in the Bible et al because Joseph Smith did. Take him away, and you yank the rug out from under everything else.

That makes sense. Reverse engineering.

Regards,
MG

[_Philo Sofee]

... I believed first and foremost in Joseph Smith, and my belief in God and the scriptures grew out of that. I believed in God because Smith saw him. I believed in the Bible et al because Joseph Smith did. Take him away, and you yank the rug out from under everything else.

That makes sense. Reverse engineering.

Regards,
MG

Yes, it's perfectly logical and rational, so where does that leave you?

[_DoubtingThomas]

Yes. I believe that we can all receive personal revelation regarding how to handle situations in our own lives, or in the lives of our family members.

and spiritual revelation is everything for Mormonism.

[_mentalgymnast]

Yes, it's perfectly logical and rational, so where does that leave you?

I'll bet you can guess.

Can I be logical and rational no matter which way I lean?

This place often feels like a one room school house where the teacher expects the 'same' logic and rationality...and answers...to be expressed/given by every. single. student.

Or it's a failing grade for you bud.

Regards,
MG

[_Kishkumen]

When other Christians ask me why I thew out the baby with the bathwater upon rejecting Mormonism, I ask them to consider a similar situation.

Suppose you find out that Jesus was not the Christ. Either he was just a man, or else he never existed all. Regardless, he was never your Lord, God, and Savior. The New Testament is a hoax, Christianity is a fraud.

Would you revert to Judaism? Would you still believe in Abraham and Moses and the rest of the Old Testament? After all, whether Jesus is Lord has no bearing on any of that. If you believed in them before finding out the "truth" about Jesus, why should that change?

Most Christians tend to admit that they probably wouldn't "revert" to Judaism, because that's not how their faith is structured. They are Christians first and foremost, and everything else stems from that. They didn't start out believing in the Old Testament, and then decide that Jesus was the most likely Messiah that the old patriarchs foretold. They started with the belief in Jesus and only believe in the Old Testament because Jesus did. Without his endorsement the Old Testament suddenly looks kind of far-fetched.

I was the same way as a Mormon. It starts and ends with Joseph Smith. I never had a foundation in Christianity or Judaism or even theism. I believed first and foremost in Joseph Smith, and my belief in God and the scriptures grew out of that. I believed in God because Smith saw him. I believed in the Bible et al because Joseph Smith did. Take him away, and you yank the rug out from under everything else.

So once I realized Mormonism was a fraud I had no reason to believe in anything. I was starting over with a clean slate. Maybe some people considering the question of gods, angels, and demons from the perspective of an educated adult find reasons to believe in their existence, but I wasn't one of them.

I both admire this post and disagree with it to a degree. On the one hand, I do believe you are right about people’s perceptions and reactions to religious change. On the other hand, I tend to think that the reason people jettison the whole thing is because they never really go beyond the narrow confines of the package they’ve been handed. Often, when they think they are, they are really just going down the well-worn byways cut by other geeks in the past. What is missing is a broader and deeper historical view.

Few there be that have the luxury and inclination to pursue acquiring this vision, so in practical terms your post is essentially right. But I can’t help but think that there is much one can come to understand about the relationships between these traditions that increases one’s appreciation of them. Another obstacle to this is surely the desire for an easy, definitive answer. The reality is that we can’t hope to grasp all we aspire to know and understand, but it is sure fun to chase those threads wherever they lead.

Finally, students of wisdom will only feel comfortable in communities to the extent that they acquire tolerance and patience. True camaraderie will be found with fellow travelers on the path of wisdom. Often these fellow travelers are writers instead of present friends.

[_Lemmie]

Can I be logical and rational no matter which way I lean?

Contrarian trolling isn't really effective when your "questions" are such obvious bait.

Back to the topic,

But you also get the political BS, the feel-good epistemological approach to life that leads to non-stop "just so" stories serving to justify EVERYTHING that pops into their minds,

.
That's what gets so old. The justifications are so ad hoc that the contradictions can't help but pile up and pile up until they are unavoidable. Then you get something like the above, where someone actually makes a plea that logic and rationality should include illogic and irrationality. It hurts my brain.

[_krose]

My response to the ‘throwing out baby with bath water’ accusation is that there was never any baby — just a lot of dirty, murky water.

In my own case, I dumped Mormonism because I had come to the conclusion that there was nothing out there that cared, listened to prayers, or helpfully arranged things for us.