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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:55 am 
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Simon Southerton wrote:
Too many Mormons use the fear of offending their sensitive little testimonies as a barrier to communication and to shut people down. In my family that has meant no discussion over the last 20 years about why I left the church. Some now follow Meldrum's lies and some hang onto anything positive regardless of how unreliable (e.g. Cherokee are Jewish). This is a toxic situation the church fosters and it is designed to suppress doubt, hide truth and rip families apart.


No doubt.


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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:26 pm 
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Dr. Southerton, have you had a chance to read Adam Rutherford's book, A Brief History of Everyone Who Ever Lived? If so, what's your opinion of the work? Not specifically in relation to the Book of Mormon (which it would seem to offer no support related to how DNA propagates) but in general, in terms of style, interest and 'digestibility' by a reader of average scientific intellect?

Thank you,

-cp-


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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:48 pm 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
If you haven't thought of a good response yet--other than forwarding that response, of course--may I suggest the following?

"Dear Niece,

Are you upset with me because what I'm saying is false, or are you upset with me because what I'm saying is true?"


That, good Dr, is brilliant and will be included in my response. Thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:58 pm 
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canpakes wrote:
Dr. Southerton, have you had a chance to read Adam Rutherford's book, A Brief History of Everyone Who Ever Lived? If so, what's your opinion of the work? Not specifically in relation to the Book of Mormon (which it would seem to offer no support related to how DNA propagates) but in general, in terms of style, interest and 'digestibility' by a reader of average scientific intellect?

Thank you,

-cp-


I haven't read it but I may now that you have brought it to my attention. I've been more interested in human DNA genealogy lately. I recently had my DNA tested by Living DNA, a company that can identify where your DNA came from within the British Isles in pretty good detail. 90% of my DNA came from Britain, with most coming from counties and areas where my known ancestors came from. But surprisingly, about 8% of my DNA comes from Northern Italy. There are no recorded Italians in my family tree, so this is intriguing. It suggests an Italian stallion snuck in there within the last 3-4 generations.

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:03 pm 
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Simon Southerton wrote:
Dr. Shades wrote:
If you haven't thought of a good response yet--other than forwarding that response, of course--may I suggest the following?

"Dear Niece,

Are you upset with me because what I'm saying is false, or are you upset with me because what I'm saying is true?"


That, good Dr, is brilliant and will be included in my response. Thank you.

Good Drs.,

A humbly suggested option for an alternative wording of Dr.Shades's great comeback for your consideration.
_________________________________

"Dear Niece,

Are you upset with me because you think what I'm saying is false, or are you upset with me because you think what I'm saying is true?"
_______________________________

You really nailed it with a great comeback, Dr. Shades.

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:13 pm 
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DrW wrote:
...I would be more than happy, with the Good Doctor's permission, to prepare a properly attributed PDF of his comments, host them on one of our sites with a nondescript URL, and let folks provide said URL as a reference as they saw fit.


Happy for you to create a PDF and place it somewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:23 pm 
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Simon Southerton wrote:
DrW wrote:
...I would be more than happy, with the Good Doctor's permission, to prepare a properly attributed PDF of his comments, host them on one of our sites with a nondescript URL, and let folks provide said URL as a reference as they saw fit.


Happy for you to create a PDF and place it somewhere.


Thank you. Will get on it this weekend. Will touch base with you for approval before going public.

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:02 pm 
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Simon Southerton wrote:
That, good Dr, is brilliant and will be included in my response. Thank you.

Certainly. If she replies, PLEASE share it with us!

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:14 pm 
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A Michael Hogan said on DanP'spage "A lot of our lineage is lost with each passing generation. Mitochondrial DNA shows just a tiny fragment of our lineage." Is it true

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:22 pm 
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Ugh. That missive from his niece is heartbreaking. Lucky for the rest of Dr. Southerton's commitment to fact finding is a bit stronger than, I guess, apologia.

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:51 pm 
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aussieguy55 wrote:
A Michael Hogan said on DanP'spage "A lot of our lineage is lost with each passing generation. Mitochondrial DNA shows just a tiny fragment of our lineage." Is it true


Our mitochondrial DNA represents a single maternal lineage within our family tree since it is passed from mothers to offspring in each generation. Apologists often make the point that mtDNA lineages get lost and most go extinct. That's true if you focus on the individual, however, the same mtDNA lineage can be passed down by the individuals sisters, aunties and their daughters, and many other female relatives in previous generations. It ain't all doom and gloom for mtDNA.

Scientists studying human populations (doing population genetics!) are not focussing on the DNA of individuals (funny how a dumb "non-population geneticist" needs to remind the apologists). They are looking at the DNA of populations. Instead of looking at individual mtDNA "haploypes" they are looking at "haplogroups" which are collections of related haplotypes. The A,B,C,D and X mtDNA classes are haplogroups, and within each haplogroup there are many haplotypes. Haplogroups tend not to go extinct and this is the case in the Americas. Virtually all of the ancient remains tested in the Americas have an A,B,C,D or X mtDNA lineage. Also, the A,B,C,D and X lineages are still present today at about 50% collectively in Central and North Asian populations.

Our Genomic DNA, however, represents 99.99% of our DNA and comes from many more of our ancestors. A lot of whole genome research has been published in the last few years and it hasn't been addressed by the apologists. Its much harder to argue for extinction with Genomic DNA; that's why they are starting to claim the Lehites were never numerically significant to begin with.

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:04 pm 
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Simon Southerton wrote:
Thanks for all your very kind words of support. I never get anything but silence from my seven sisters.

I recently posted a link to a Guardian newspaper article on my personal Facebook page that mentioned that Lost Tribes had not been found among the ancestors of the American Indians. I also made this comment.

Quote:
Thirty years of DNA research on Native Americans has revealed their true origins in striking detail. Mitochondrial DNA and now much more powerful whole genome studies have found no trace of Jewish ancestry. Their ancestors came from Central Asia over 20,000 year ago in remarkable journeys across a land bridge joining Alaska and Asia.


Up until now I have rarely said anything on Facebook that might upset LDS members of the family but it has been ALMOST 20 YEARS since I resigned as bishop so I was feeling reckless. This is a public response I got from a niece.

Quote:
Considering that you and other family members continue to seek out ways to drag religion down constantly and more often than not target the truth of the Book of Mormon, I find it offensive.

As an uncle, I looked up to you for many years with a lot of respect. We had many good times as children with your family and now I find myself often very offended at your posts.

I think they are extremely disrespectful to your mother and father who raised you well. They are disrespectful to the majority of your family members who are very happy with there religious choices.

Religion aside, if you choose to go a certain path in life, why try and drag everyone else along for the ride? What is wrong with being happy with your choices and allowing others theirs?

Imagine if all of the effort you put into proving a book is wrong went into proving it was right? Imagine what you might find!


Whats most disturbing about this response is that she is acting on what she has heard from others in the family as she is barely out of her teens. She has inadvertently revealed how I am talked about by her parents and almost certainly the rest of the family.

But among the comments I also got this beautiful message from a recovering "Lamanite" which makes it all worth it.

Quote:
XXXXX (TBM niece), I don’t know you. But I would love for you to see how amazing your Uncle really is. In the hardest part of recovering my true heritage (Tsimshian) I was listening to an interview of him speak about these issues. His validation of these issues brought me to tears, I literally had to push pause to cry for a bit. As a seventh generation Mormon I loved the gospel, but as a Native American it broke me. I do not want to bring any harm to your faith. I want to offer support and respect. I just hope you can understand that your Uncle offers that to my people. Support. Respect. Truth. My skin was not dark from a curse. My heritage/ dna has nothing to do with Lamanites. My people never turned their back on God. My people know their stories, know their origin, and these studies simply confirm what Native Americans have said all along. Your Uncle is not dragging everyone else along for the ride. He is choosing truth. He honors truth, and I for one respect your Uncle and am so grateful for him.


My niece had unfriended me by then so will have missed this message. I will privately forward it to her.

Too many Mormons use the fear of offending their sensitive little testimonies as a barrier to communication and to shut people down. In my family that has meant no discussion over the last 20 years about why I left the church. Some now follow Meldrum's lies and some hang onto anything positive regardless of how unreliable (e.g. Cherokee are Jewish). This is a toxic situation the church fosters and it is designed to suppress doubt, hide truth and rip families apart. From now on I will be posting whatever I farking well like on my Facebook page. Today it was Weird Alma's Masturbation song :)

Wow...just wow. Will any of our extended families ever understand the courage it took to walk away?


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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:25 am 
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MichaelHoggan wrote:
"I am aware of the haplogroup data, noel. However mtDNA only reflects the ultimate maternal line. It doesn't even show your maternal gandfather, so that branch of your lineage is completely absent from the studies. On a group level, it definitely is impacted by genetic bottlenecks.

LDS scholars have argued for decades that the Lehites and Mulekites were a small "ruling class" over a much larger native population. Even Hugh Nibley, who was a hemispherist for at least most of his life, believed that most people in the Americas at the time were Jaredites with a Central Asiatic lineage.

They haven't found Viking traces here, even though we know they were here. Other than the Anglo-Saxons, and Viking traces in a few small areas, the various peoples who we know populated t he British Isles have not left a genetic trace. This isn't as easy as you seem to think it is."

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:39 pm 
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MichaelHoggan wrote:
However mtDNA only reflects the ultimate maternal line. It doesn't even show your maternal gandfather, so that branch of your lineage is completely absent from the studies. On a group level, it definitely is impacted by genetic bottlenecks.

Every single individual in a population carries one of those "ultimate maternal lines". Extinction of individual haplotypes is not as common as the apologists want because dozens of other related females can vicariously pass on the identical lineage. Major haplogroups rarely go extinct. Take for example the Icelandic study the apologists raved about. They point out that many lineages went extinct over a couple of centuries, but if you look at the haplogroups in the present and past Icelandic populations, ALL of the haplogroups are present and in similar frequencies. Anyone with a basic understanding of population genetics should appreciate this.

Quote:
LDS scholars have argued for decades that the Lehites and Mulekites were a small "ruling class" over a much larger native population. Even Hugh Nibley, who was a hemispherist for at least most of his life, believed that most people in the Americas at the time were Jaredites with a Central Asiatic lineage.

His excellency, Reverend Kishkumen, has this amply covered in The Electronic Journal of Jaredite Studies. Nibley's Jaredite scholarship is embarrassing. If the apologists are to believed, Native Americans were submissive, meek, peace loving folk who allowed Lehi and the Mulekites to take the reigns of their civilizations for a thousand years. But they loved fighting just enough to regularly go out and slaughter in the name of Laman and Nephi. Are we running out of ways to insult native people yet???

Quote:
They haven't found Viking traces here, even though we know they were here. Other than the Anglo-Saxons, and Viking traces in a few small areas, the various peoples who we know populated t he British Isles have not left a genetic trace. This isn't as easy as you seem to think it is."

What a mish mash of excuses. They haven't found traces of Viking DNA in the Americas because they popped back to Greenland when Newfoundland became too inhospitable. We know this because they wrote down how their voyages went when they got back and we have those records today! What we do have is clear archaeological evidence that a small party of Vikings were in Newfoundland for a brief period around 1000AD. What we don't have is any archaeological evidence of Middle Eastern civilizations anywhere in the Americas that allegedly existed for at least a thousand years.

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:45 am 
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Simon,

Please check your PM for the PDF (sent yesterday) to review before it goes public.

Thanks.

DrW.

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:40 pm 
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Steelhead recently had a good thread on this subject with Dr. Southerton commented in that thread. Link

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:55 pm 
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aussieguy55 wrote:
LDS scholars have argued for decades that the Lehites and Mulekites were a small "ruling class" over a much larger native population. Even Hugh Nibley, who was a hemispherist for at least most of his life, believed that most people in the Americas at the time were Jaredites with a Central Asiatic lineage.


The Book of Mormon doesn't teach what these LDS scholars have argued for decades. See e.g. 2nd Nephi 1:8-9 and Jacob 7:26.

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:23 am 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
Shades! That is a great comeback! It's like David Eller says when someone spouts off that atheism is a religion. "Is that meant as an insult or a compliment? :biggrin:
It is neither; it is an observation.

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:25 pm 
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zerinus wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:
Shades! That is a great comeback! It's like David Eller says when someone spouts off that atheism is a religion. "Is that meant as an insult or a compliment? :biggrin:
It is neither; it is an observation.


It seems like a pretty poor observation. Atheism is more like an unreligion and how can an unreligion be a religion?

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:59 pm 
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Exiled wrote:
zerinus wrote:
It is neither; it is an observation.


It seems like a pretty poor observation. Atheism is more like an unreligion and how can an unreligion be a religion?


Because the person making such an observation is ignorant, unimaginative and uninterested in learning. They believe they aren't capable of leaving their subjective religious fantasy bubble, so they imagine that everyone else is under the same restrictions. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:09 pm 
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Exiled wrote:
Atheism is more like an unreligion and how can an unreligion be a religion?

Until you need something from the Supreme Court, that is.


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