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 Post subject: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:29 pm 
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http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/is-dec ... of-mormon/

Apparently this is supposed to refute the idea that DNA of the American Indians have nothing to do with the historicity of the Book of Mormon. Have you seen it before and/or commented on it? I defer to your expertise.

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:37 pm 
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Exactly only Simon Southerton.
No google search smart @sses allowed.


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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:57 pm 
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Gaslighting

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:39 pm 
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Dr. Southerton has already commented on that article. Link


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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:39 am 
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Brackite wrote:
Dr. Southerton has already commented on that article. Link


Ah thank you, that is what I was wondering. I appreciate it.

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:02 pm 
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Kerry, I was preoccupied with work at the time Perego and Ekin’s Interpreter piece was written in 2014, so didn’t really look closely at it. Here are some thoughts on the article.

There are a couple of recent advances that I should mention at the outset that have some bearing on the paper. The famous X2a mitochondrial DNA lineage, which is present at about 3% in North American Indians, was recently discovered in the ancient remains of Kennewick Man which were retrieved from the banks of the Columbia River near Kennewick, Washington. This skeleton is over 8,000 years old, so the discovery confirms the lineage entered the Americas over 15,000 years ago and has nothing to offer the apologists. (Rodney Meldrum’s empire is built on his X lineage lies and this completely undermines him.)

I should also mention that Perego’s specialty is clearly mitochondrial DNA and he makes no mention of the powerful whole genome research which is now being published. This type of research can reveal in great detail where the European and African DNA found in Native Americans (about 1%) came from and the time it arrived in the New World.

The article is based on the premise that the small founding populations described in the Book of Mormon met and then integrated into large native populations while they themselves never became numerically significant. Lots of excuses are given for why Lehite/Mulekite/Jaredite DNA may not be found including things like bottleneck effect, genetic drift and natural selection. Somehow the Lehite/Mulekite/Jaredites, while having unlucky DNA, managed to rule native populations for a thousand years. But the authors say nothing about how this farcical takeover was peacefully achieved. Next to nothing is written about how members need to interpret the Book of Mormon text to fit with this vanishing geography. You are left to wonder why God allowed the Book of Mormon narrative to completely fool all the prophets, including Joseph Smith, and millions of honest and sincere readers of the text for almost 200 years. Silly God.

The article skims over the Native American data. Several times the authors say 95% of the DNA is Asian, presumably because you can park faith more comfortably in 5%. I’ve gathered data from over 100 research papers where the authors were specifically studying the origins of native tribes and deliberately excluding people with known European/African ancestry. Of the 15,555 individuals studied 99% have an Asian mtDNA lineage and 1% have either a European or African lineage. Whenever scientists have taken the time to see where these European lineages came from they invariably find a match in an individual in Western Europe. Not a single individual among the 15,555 (0.0%) has been identified with a Middle Eastern DNA lineage. Over 600 Mayans have been tested and 99% had an Asian lineage and 1% an African lineage. Yet just a couple of years ago BYU Mesoamerican apologists were weeping about the amazing linguistic and archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica. All evidence mainstream science completely rejects by the way.

The whole genome data sheds further light on the origin of the European DNA in Native Americans. To study the whole genome, scientists use about 700,000 DNA markers scattered across all of the chromosomes. Subsets of these markers are specific to particular populations, e.g, Greeks, Druze, French etc. Genomic markers can therefore be used to track where European and African DNA in Native Americans came from. The following link will take you through to a map that allows you to track where the European and African DNA in the Maya and Pima came from. In both cases, it virtually all came from Western European countries or Sub-Saharan Africa and none came from the Middle East.

http://admixturemap.paintmychromosomes.com/
(Click on the Pima and Maya populations to see where their DNA came from.)

The authors make the point that it’s not possible to distinguish between pre (3000BC) and post Columbus European DNA because mtDNA accumulates new mutations at a rate of one mutation every 3,000-9,000 years. Here they are making the very hopeful (but mistaken) assumption that Lehite DNA could be among the European DNA. Middle Eastern populations have been largely separated from Western European populations for almost as long as Asians have been separated from Native Americans. 25,000 years is enough time to accumulate 3-8 new mutations. That’s why it is frequently easy to distinguish the two. I personally have an H mtDNA lineage, but the lineage H subgroup I belong too is exclusively found in Western Europe.

The genomic DNA analysis can also shed light on when the European and African DNA arrived in native populations. As our genomic DNA is passed down the generations, the paternal and maternal chromosomes frequently cross over or recombine. This effectively chops each of our chromosomes up into chunks that come from different ancestors. With each passing generations the chunks get smaller and smaller. If your family tree was largely Native American and a European entered it at some time in the past, its possible to estimate when they entered based on the length of the European chunks. If they entered recently the chunks would be large. If they entered 2000 years ago they would be very small. These sorts of estimates have been made for admixture in Native American populations and the admixed DNA arrived within the last 500 years.
See http://admixturemap.paintmychromosomes.com/

To further cloud the issue the authors claim that we can’t possibly know what Lehi’s DNA looked like. They even make the absurd claim that “it must still be acknowledged that virtually any individual DNA profile could be found in any population, although at different frequencies.” Given that the Lehite/Mulekite/Jaredite groups all came from the Fertile Crescent region, and the Lehites and Mulekites from Israel, its perfectly reasonable to assume they carried DNA that is present in contemporary Middle Eastern populations. The authors are arguing that all of the DNA the Book of Mormon people brought with them may have been rare lineages, which may not be present in Middle Eastern groups today.

The most revealing thing about the article is what it doesn’t say. It says essentially nothing about how Mormons need to reinterpret the Book of Mormon narrative to accommodate the territory they have conceded to science. The authors know that after many thousands of DNA tests, Middle Eastern DNA has not been detected. The Lehites were at most a vanishingly small part of New World populations. We are left to wonder why they make absolutely no mention of the massive populations they encountered? Why did those native populations hand over the rule of their civilisations to a small band of Hebrews? Apparently this astonishing capitulation occurred twice, with both the Lehites and Mulekites.

The Book of Mormon was “written to the Lamanites” but now we don’t know where the Lamanites are. Meanwhile the prophets who are meant to interpret scripture stand silently by.

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:21 pm 
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Wow, thank you so much for taking the time to educate us a little bit more on this. You are a walking library on DNA issues and I appreciate your magnificent efforts here Simon! Very informative and interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:01 pm 
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Simon, thank you very much for taking the time to write that up.


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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:22 pm 
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If anyone has ever been around Native Americans, Asians, and Jews for any length of time, you would notice that Native Americans hardly ever shout "Oy vey!"

Hope that helps.

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:49 am 
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moksha wrote:
If anyone has ever been around Native Americans, Asians, and Jews for any length of time, you would notice that Native Americans hardly ever shout "Oy vey!"

Hope that helps.


:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:48 am 
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Dr. Southerton,

Thank you for taking the time to write a clear, comprehensive (and more than fair) response to the Interpreter piece. Much appreciated.

Someone should post a link to your response in the comments section of SeN next time DCP brings up the subject.

Ex-Mormon reddit could also benefit from such a link, methinks.

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:20 am 
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DrW wrote:
Dr. Southerton,

Thank you for taking the time to write a clear, comprehensive (and more than fair) response to the Interpreter piece. Much appreciated.

Someone should post a link to your response in the comments section of SeN next time DCP brings up the subject.

Ex-Mormon reddit could also benefit from such a link, methinks.

I'll just reaffirm everyone else's thanks to you Dr. Southerton. I've always enjoyed your posts and find them balanced and extremely informative.

DrW, although the readers over at Patheos could definitely benefit from Simon's excellent comments, last I saw any link or mention of this website on SeN was immediately removed. There is a reason we aren't even recognized by name in his posts about/to us, no free advertising I suppose.

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:02 am 
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Last edited by Water Dog on Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:23 am 
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Water Dog wrote:
God changed their DNA to hide their origin.

of course. He did it to offer his huge middle finger to anyone who dare try and look into this. He's done that on a few things.


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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:26 am 
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Simon Southerton wrote:
Kerry, I was preoccupied with work at the time Perego and Ekin’s Interpreter piece was written in 2014, so didn’t really look closely at it. Here are some thoughts on the article.

[SNIP!]

The Book of Mormon was “written to the Lamanites” but now we don’t know where the Lamanites are. Meanwhile the prophets who are meant to interpret scripture stand silently by.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:28 am 
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Craig Paxton wrote:
Image

Those chances just happen to be exactly what it takes to consider faith vindicated. Well, shoot. I guess we lose. The Book of Mormon is of ancient origin.


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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:23 am 
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Stem wrote:
Craig Paxton wrote:
Image

Those chances just happen to be exactly what it takes to consider faith vindicated. Well, shoot. I guess we lose. The Book of Mormon is of ancient origin.

Funny how faith works...for me I had complete and utter faith that the Book of Mormon was everything it claimed to be. Ancient and historical. I even once gave a sacrament talk on the historicity of the Book of Mormon, how science had been proven wrong in its scoffing of Book of Mormon claims such as wheat, horses, barley, metallurgy, Jewish linage aka DNA etc. The problem is that my faith was built on ignorance. When I actually mustered the courage to gain some knowledge...that knowledge conflicted with Book of Mormon claims and the Book of Mormon couldn't stand up to scientific scrutiny. Like a light being shown into a dark room my ignorance vanished along with my faith.

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:56 pm 
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Xenophon wrote:
DrW wrote:
Dr. Southerton,

Thank you for taking the time to write a clear, comprehensive (and more than fair) response to the Interpreter piece. Much appreciated.

Someone should post a link to your response in the comments section of SeN next time DCP brings up the subject.

Ex-Mormon reddit could also benefit from such a link, methinks.

I'll just reaffirm everyone else's thanks to you Dr. Southerton. I've always enjoyed your posts and find them balanced and extremely informative.

DrW, although the readers over at Patheos could definitely benefit from Simon's excellent comments, last I saw any link or mention of this website on SeN was immediately removed. There is a reason we aren't even recognized by name in his posts about/to us, no free advertising I suppose.

Xenophon,

Not to belabor the point, but Dr. Southerton has, in the past, prepared and posted his work in this area in a manuscript format as a PDF document that is directly accessible on the internet. He apparently has access to hosting for such documents. Perhaps he would care to do so again. It would definitely worth doing IMHO.

If Dr. Southerton does not have the time or interest to do so, we have plenty of hosting bandwidth here and I would be more than happy, with the Good Doctor's permission, to prepare a properly attributed PDF of his comments, host them on one of our sites with a nondescript URL, and let folks provide said URL as a reference as they saw fit.

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:06 pm 
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Thanks for all your very kind words of support. I never get anything but silence from my seven sisters.

I recently posted a link to a Guardian newspaper article on my personal Facebook page that mentioned that Lost Tribes had not been found among the ancestors of the American Indians. I also made this comment.

Quote:
Thirty years of DNA research on Native Americans has revealed their true origins in striking detail. Mitochondrial DNA and now much more powerful whole genome studies have found no trace of Jewish ancestry. Their ancestors came from Central Asia over 20,000 year ago in remarkable journeys across a land bridge joining Alaska and Asia.


Up until now I have rarely said anything on Facebook that might upset LDS members of the family but it has been ALMOST 20 YEARS since I resigned as bishop so I was feeling reckless. This is a public response I got from a niece.

Quote:
Considering that you and other family members continue to seek out ways to drag religion down constantly and more often than not target the truth of the Book of Mormon, I find it offensive.

As an uncle, I looked up to you for many years with a lot of respect. We had many good times as children with your family and now I find myself often very offended at your posts.

I think they are extremely disrespectful to your mother and father who raised you well. They are disrespectful to the majority of your family members who are very happy with there religious choices.

Religion aside, if you choose to go a certain path in life, why try and drag everyone else along for the ride? What is wrong with being happy with your choices and allowing others theirs?

Imagine if all of the effort you put into proving a book is wrong went into proving it was right? Imagine what you might find!


Whats most disturbing about this response is that she is acting on what she has heard from others in the family as she is barely out of her teens. She has inadvertently revealed how I am talked about by her parents and almost certainly the rest of the family.

But among the comments I also got this beautiful message from a recovering "Lamanite" which makes it all worth it.

Quote:
XXXXX (TBM niece), I don’t know you. But I would love for you to see how amazing your Uncle really is. In the hardest part of recovering my true heritage (Tsimshian) I was listening to an interview of him speak about these issues. His validation of these issues brought me to tears, I literally had to push pause to cry for a bit. As a seventh generation Mormon I loved the gospel, but as a Native American it broke me. I do not want to bring any harm to your faith. I want to offer support and respect. I just hope you can understand that your Uncle offers that to my people. Support. Respect. Truth. My skin was not dark from a curse. My heritage/ dna has nothing to do with Lamanites. My people never turned their back on God. My people know their stories, know their origin, and these studies simply confirm what Native Americans have said all along. Your Uncle is not dragging everyone else along for the ride. He is choosing truth. He honors truth, and I for one respect your Uncle and am so grateful for him.


My niece had unfriended me by then so will have missed this message. I will privately forward it to her.

Too many Mormons use the fear of offending their sensitive little testimonies as a barrier to communication and to shut people down. In my family that has meant no discussion over the last 20 years about why I left the church. Some now follow Meldrum's lies and some hang onto anything positive regardless of how unreliable (e.g. Cherokee are Jewish). This is a toxic situation the church fosters and it is designed to suppress doubt, hide truth and rip families apart. From now on I will be posting whatever I farking well like on my Facebook page. Today it was Weird Alma's Masturbation song :)

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:25 pm 
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Dr. Southerton, I too echo everyone else and give you my sincere thanks for typing that up for us. Very valuable information.

Your niece wrote,

Quote:
Considering that you and other family members continue to seek out ways to drag religion down constantly and more often than not target the truth of the Book of Mormon, I find it offensive.

As an uncle, I looked up to you for many years with a lot of respect. We had many good times as children with your family and now I find myself often very offended at your posts.

I think they are extremely disrespectful to your mother and father who raised you well. They are disrespectful to the majority of your family members who are very happy with there religious choices.

Religion aside, if you choose to go a certain path in life, why try and drag everyone else along for the ride? What is wrong with being happy with your choices and allowing others theirs?

Imagine if all of the effort you put into proving a book is wrong went into proving it was right? Imagine what you might find!

If you haven't thought of a good response yet--other than forwarding that response, of course--may I suggest the following?

"Dear Niece,

Are you upset with me because what I'm saying is false, or are you upset with me because what I'm saying is true?"

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 Post subject: Re: For Simon Southerton Comments please?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:27 pm 
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Shades! That is a great comeback! It's like David Eller says when someone spouts off that atheism is a religion. "Is that meant as an insult or a compliment? :biggrin:

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