A Quick Thought for the Day

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_Bryan Inks
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A Quick Thought for the Day

Post by _Bryan Inks »

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

- Steven Weinberg
_Sam Harris
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Post by _Sam Harris »

Wow...that's deep.

Think about it, what is a person doing, when they're doing something "religiously"?

Are they stopping to think about what they're doing? Are they examining the consequences? Are they aware of what's going on around them?
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.


Loran:

Or socialism, which is the religion in the name of which the vast majority of such evil has been done, and most of it in this century alone.

I'm not at all sure about your claim that "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things", because of the necessity of an ultimate metaphysical definition of good and evil and a system of belief that defines human behavior in relation to it.. Nor am I at all sure about the claim that good people do evil things only in the name of religion. If otherwise good people would exist without religion, why would good people, not being perfect people, still not do evil things on occasion without religion? Why would otherwise good people sometimes not commit evil acts in the name of political ideology, tribe, clan, or nation; lust, greed, or envy, or because of addiction or psychological obsession? Would there be no drug addicts (many of whom are otherwise good people) who sometimes do evil things were it not for the existence of religion?

I suspect that much of what you are seeing as good people doing evil things in religion's name is in fact, at least in the case of Christian doctrine, a bastardization of that religon, not the religion itself.

Loran
_Sam Harris
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Post by _Sam Harris »

Coggins7 wrote:
I suspect that much of what you are seeing as good people doing evil things in religion's name is in fact, at least in the case of Christian doctrine, a bastardization of that religon, not the religion itself.


Quite true, but when you focus solely on ritual, ie, the letter of the law, important things get lost in the process. Which is why I do not trust religion, and rather choose spirituality. I believe in Jesus, but I don't believe the current state of the body of Christ is what He had in mind for us.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Quite true, but when you focus solely on ritual, ie, the letter of the law, important things get lost in the process. Which is why I do not trust religion, and rather choose spirituality. I believe in Jesus, but I don't believe the current state of the body of Christ is what He had in mind for us.


Loran:

I believe in Jesus, and I also believe that he is a God of order, system, law, and structure. Therefore, it is to be expected that he will organize and authorize a unique, visible body of believers who bear his name and have authority from him to preach hsi gospel and administer his ordinances. He would also want to set this organization off from all others in the sense of that authority and foundational truths of the system (not in the sense of having a monopoly on truth, however).

A sole focus on ritual is, indeed, a negative, which is one reason I'm so happy the restored Church of Jesus Christ has so little of it and to the degree it does, is of only modest complexity.

Loran
_Sam Harris
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Post by _Sam Harris »

Oh Loran, your humor is marvelous. Now THAT I find funny.

Cog dis at its best.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

Brian's, A Quick Thought for the Day
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion ... And/or alcohol, other mind altering drugs, hate, greed, ignorance, prejudice, nationalism, capitalism and as Loran stated earlier socialism.. Bold piece added.

Might this have been "A (too) Quick Thought..."?

Quite true, but when you focus solely on ritual, ie, the letter of the law, important things get lost in the process. Which is why I do not trust religion, and rather choose spirituality. I believe in Jesus, but I don't believe the current state of the body of Christ is what He had in mind for us.


GIMR,I agree. What humanity needs is to understand, be converted to, "JESUSISM"... the "pure love of Christ" might work where religion failed. Although even that has to work its way through the mesh (mess?) of conditioned minds. Wouldn't be easy. Actually the means are there we just need the will to make the way.

Loran: (I will boldly intrude, respectfully of course. ;-)

I believe in Jesus, and I also believe that he is a God of order, system, law, and structure. (Me too) Therefore, it is to be expected that he will organize and authorize a unique, visible body of believers who bear his name and have authority from him to preach hsi gospel and administer his ordinances. (Only in a man-made religious institution attempting a managable physical structure. This inhibits the spontenaity of the spirit and only facilitates top-down authority. As in most institutions.) He would also want to set this organization off from all others in the sense of that authority and foundational truths of the system (As do all man-made corporations.) (not in the sense of having a monopoly on truth, however). (IF that were only so! Then one wouldn't have to pledge-and-join to enjoy 'their' truth.)

A sole focus on ritual is, indeed, a negative, which is one reason I'm so happy the restored Church of Jesus Christ has so little of it and to the degree it does, is of only modest complexity. (As You/they see it.)

Loran


"...ritual is indeed a negative..." Correct! Unfortunately as we practice--grow-up-with--rituals they become so automatic that they often lose their identity as "rituals" and seem innocuous habits; "the way we do things." Generally speaking, our lives are full of them.

LDSism has more than a smattering of them. That is not even bringing Temple Rituals under consideration.

To the thread topic: Christianity, as THE religion in our case, has not done THE bidding of Jesus its name-sake. To the dismay of a few, while denied by the majority who sing praises to the messenger seeming oblivious to his message. That is as it is understood by those who see Jesus' spirit trumping man's laws instituted as mechanisms to control unruly spirits.

"Praise "God" from whom all blessings flow..." It ain't a lost cause! Intelligence will prevail! Education will dispel ignorance! Science will answer what superstition couldn't. All leading to the unity of faith to move the mountains of injustice that Jesus address 2,000 years ago with his "Two New Commandments" As i envision it... Warm regards, Roger
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

"Praise "God" from whom all blessings flow..." It ain't a lost cause! Intelligence will prevail! Education will dispel ignorance! Science will answer what superstition couldn't. All leading to the unity of faith to move the mountains of injustice that Jesus address 2,000 years ago with his "Two New Commandments" As i envision it... Warm regards, Roger


Indeed, amen. And yet we spend billions on malls and city blocks. Worry about earring holes and tattoos and the color of shirts, preach obedience to a man or two or a dozen, discern nothing of eternal value, and follow like lemmings instead of using our God-given intelligence to make changes. And boot out anyone who dares speak up for the real gospel of Jesus Christ. *sigh*
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Roger and Harmony,

I find the idea of a restoration so odd in light of the fact that the teachings of Jesus, and the early "church" he established do not even remotely look like any church today, especially not the LDS church.

Jesus taught on a hillside, wearing simple clothing, of humble means, accepting everyone... I do not know of any record of him interviewing anyone to see if they were worthy of his teachings. I do not know of any time where he required money to partake of his teachings. I do not see him treating women as second class citizens.

His message was so simple, pure, peaceful. No thoughts about image, PR, fancy malls, expensive clothing, first class transportation, wealthy appearances, or ostentatious buildings... weird.

~dancer~
_harmony
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Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Post by _harmony »

truth dancer wrote:Hi Roger and Harmony,

I find the idea of a restoration so odd in light of the fact that the teachings of Jesus, and the early "church" he established do not even remotely look like any church today, especially not the LDS church.

Jesus taught on a hillside, wearing simple clothing, of humble means, accepting everyone... I do not know of any record of him interviewing anyone to see if they were worthy of his teachings. I do not know of any time where he required money to partake of his teachings. I do not see him treating women as second class citizens.

His message was so simple, pure, peaceful. No thoughts about image, PR, fancy malls, expensive clothing, first class transportation, wealthy appearances, or ostentatious buildings... weird.

~dancer~


You speak of Wisdom, TD. Surely Wisdom is woman.

What would a church look like, that was the real church of Jesus Christ? That is worthy of its own thread, I believe.
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