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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:05 pm 
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Regarding the knife concocted by Joseph Smith.

I can't find the reference at this point though I think it was in Bell's essay, but there is no way a knife would be drawn in these vignettes. These drawings were thought to have actual power in the afterlife and whomever was commissioning the scroll for his deceased relative would not have allowed an object like a knife, which could have been used to harm his relative, to be included.

More straws.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:18 pm 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
Regarding the knife concocted by Joseph Smith.

I can't find the reference at this point though I think it was in Bell's essay, but there is no way a knife would be drawn in these vignettes. These drawings were thought to have actual power in the afterlife and whomever was commissioning the scroll for his deceased relative would not have allowed an object like a knife, which could have been used to harm his relative, to be included.

More straws.


I need to read Bell's essay.

And yes, a knife in such a scene seems most dangerous and inappropriate. Some Egyptian funerary scenes were handled with such care that some hieroglyphic animal creatures were actually mutilated or cut in two in order to prevent them from coming to life and harming the benefactor.

The knife on the papyrus paper backing and the one in the woodcut for the Facsimile No. 1 is Joseph Smith's own imagination. It is totally unEgyptian and makes a mockery of the ancient Egyptian religion. It's slander against everything the Egyptians held dear. Mormons today are unapologetic and refuse to own the truth. It's very disheartening and shows the church has little integrity when it comes to confessing their errors.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:09 pm 
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ATTENTION:

I, Shulem, have determined that the head on the original papyrus of the so-called Egyptian priest (who is really Anubis) in Facsimile No. 1: Fig. 3, was in fact missing from the original papyrus that the Mormons purchased in Kirtland from Chandler. I now believe there was no head whereby Reuben Hedlock could copy into the woodcut of Facsimile No. 1.

How did I come to this conclusion? The relief wood cut of Facsimile No. 1 proves that the skin of the person thereon was totally black as indicated by the high relief cut in the wood for the skin which transfers solid black ink onto the paper for publishing, areas to include: Feet, legs, back, shoulder, arm.

But notice that the face of the No. 3 personage in Facsimile No. 1 is not black! The relief carving is for a white person whereby when ink is applied to the wood a white face will appear. This contradicts everything whereby the body (feet, legs, arm, back. and shoulder) is a black person but the head is a white person!

I see now that Joseph Smith didn't know what he was doing and that the head really was missing on the original papyrus of Facsimile No. 1. This is another nail in the coffin, folks.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:37 am 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
Regarding the knife concocted by Joseph Smith.

I can't find the reference at this point though I think it was in Bell's essay, but there is no way a knife would be drawn in these vignettes. These drawings were thought to have actual power in the afterlife and whomever was commissioning the scroll for his deceased relative would not have allowed an object like a knife, which could have been used to harm his relative, to be included.

More straws.


So I found the reference that talks about the possibility of there being a knife as shown in Joseph Smith's version of Fac #1.

It is from Stephen Thompson's 1995 Dialogue article found here.
The relevant quote is:

Stephen Thompson on pg 148-9 wrote:
The question never asked in arguments for the original presence of a knife is what would the knife have meant in its original, funerary, context. As stated earlier, Facsimile 1 represents the deceased individual, Horus, lying on a bier undergoing the rites of mummification by the god Anubis. While part of the mummification process did involve evisceration, I am aware of no instance in which this procedure is depicted. Given the Egyptians' reticence in depicting things which might be harmful to the deceased in his tomb, it is unlikely that an Egyptian would ever wish himself depicted being approached by a god with a knife. Knives are usually found in the hands of demons, protective deities such as Bes and Thoeris (who were the Egyptian god and goddess responsible for protecting women during childbirth), the doorkeepers in the afterworld, and the devourer in the scenes of the judgement of the dead. I know of no instance in which Anubis is depicted with a knife. The original context of Facsimile 1 would not seem to admit the possibility of a knife in Anubis's hand, and the restoration of a knife does not, in my opinion, represent the original state of the papyrus.


This is a really good article on Facsimile#1 & #3, full of very interesting information such as this quote and footnote describing the methodology, still used today by the likes of Gee & Muhlestein to defend the Book of Abraham:

Thompson on pg 146 wrote:
Every figure in the facsimiles had as its purpose the accomplishing of that goal. While it is possible that some of these figures might appear in other contexts, and take on other meanings in those contexts, in the context of the funerary papyri their interpretation is related to funerary purposes. The approach taken in attempting to support Joseph's interpretations of these figures is to compare them with figures found in other historical and textual contexts. It is simply not valid, however, to search through 3,000 years of Egyptian religious iconography to find parallels which can be pushed, prodded, squeezed, or linked in an attempt to justify Joseph's interpretations.


and footnote below:

Thompson on pg 146 wrote:
See, for example, H. Nibley, Abraham in Egypt (Salt Lake: Deseret Book Co., 1981), and "The Three Facsimiles from the Book of Abraham" (Provo, Utah: FARMS, n.d.), as well as James Harris, "The Book of Abraham Facsimiles," in R. Millet and K. Jackson, eds., Studies in Scripture, vol. 2, The Pearl of Great Price (Salt Lake City: Randall Book Co., 1985), 247-86, and The Facsimilies of the Book of Abraham, A Study of the Joseph Smith Egyptian Papyri (Payson, Utah: by the author, 1990), and M. Rhodes, "The Book of Abraham: Divinely Inspired Scripture," Review of Books on the Book of Mormon (henceforth RBBM) 4 (1992): 120-26. Recently, Daniel Peterson has summarized much of the information found in these works in his "Notes from Antiquity," Ensign 24 (Jan. 1994): 16-21

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:23 pm 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
and footnote below:


Notably that of Hugh Nibley, a man who did more to deceive the church about the Book of Abraham than any other man. Nibley was truly a spider and a master at deception.

I'm sure Philo Sofee could drum up lots of quotes about how Nibley raved about how special and unique Facsimile No. 1 was and how Joseph Smith was spot on with his revelations.

Poor Philo, Nibley took him down the rabbit holes and really did a number on him.

:biggrin:

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:07 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
Fence Sitter wrote:
and footnote below:


Notably that of Hugh Nibley, a man who did more to deceive the church about the Book of Abraham than any other man. Nibley was truly a spider and a master at deception.

I'm sure Philo Sofee could drum up lots of quotes about how Nibley raved about how special and unique Facsimile No. 1 was and how Joseph Smith was spot on with his revelations.

Poor Philo, Nibley took him down the rabbit holes and really did a number on him.

:biggrin:


(Philo putting on his very best mostest sunday go ta meetin scientism hat)
Yes he did, but science saved my bacon by presenting actual Egyptological evidence and accurate methodology to pull me outta the hole. :cool:

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:19 pm 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
Shulem wrote:

Notably that of Hugh Nibley, a man who did more to deceive the church about the Book of Abraham than any other man. Nibley was truly a spider and a master at deception.

I'm sure Philo Sofee could drum up lots of quotes about how Nibley raved about how special and unique Facsimile No. 1 was and how Joseph Smith was spot on with his revelations.

Poor Philo, Nibley took him down the rabbit holes and really did a number on him.

:biggrin:


(Philo putting on his very best mostest sunday go ta meetin scientism hat)
Yes he did, but science saved my bacon by presenting actual Egyptological evidence and accurate methodology to pull me outta the hole. :cool:


Redemption is real! Hallelujah!

Image

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:37 pm 
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Certainly [personal attack deleted] has had ample time to examine the woodcut at the Joseph Smith Papers. He's not said a thing so far. Is his testimony shaking in his boots?

[personal attack deleted]

:smile:

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:52 pm 
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You won't shake his faith, it is impervious to real evidence. That's the point of faith. When evidence is against you, turn to faith, and all will be well in your imaginary thinking. Faith is self deception. What you (Shulem) HAVE done that is invaluable is present evidence that rational people can enjoy and learn from. And for that we ALL thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:52 pm 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
You won't shake his faith, it is impervious to real evidence. That's the point of faith. When evidence is against you, turn to faith, and all will be well in your imaginary thinking. Faith is self deception. What you (Shulem) HAVE done that is invaluable is present evidence that rational people can enjoy and learn from. And for that we ALL thank you.


The principle of faith in itself can be a very good thing and is instrumental in helping people believe that life really is a good and that everyone needs to believe in themselves and believe that life is wonderful. Unfortunately, in religion, the principle of faith is used for brainwashing and getting people to imagine and believe cult ideas and rituals that are steeped in silly tradition. Faith in Mormonism in my view is a disease on the earth and sickens the minds of millions.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:51 am 
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Jesse Pinkman wrote:
I hope that Paul does answer MG's questions. He is one of the most knowledgable historians on this board. And he knows the Book of Abraham, flaws and all, like the back of his hand. He has done extensive research. I'm really glad he's posting in the Terrestrial Forum again.


Thank you.

I recommend reading Charles Larson's book available free online here:

By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:37 pm 
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mentalgymnast! Hello!

Where are YOU?

Shulem wrote:
Based on what you see in the enlarged woodcut plate, do you sense that there was a jackal nose originally carved and afterward removed? Which way do you tend to lean knowing what you know right now? On a scale of 1-10: 1 being there is no way there was a nose and 10 being there was most certainly a nose.

[ ] 1 (definitely no)
[ ] 2
[ ] 3
[ ] 4
[ ] 5
[ ] 6
[ ] 7
[ ] 8
[ ] 9
[ ] 10 (definitely yes)


[personal attack deleted]

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:15 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
mentalgymnast! Hello!

Where are YOU?

Shulem wrote:
Based on what you see in the enlarged woodcut plate, do you sense that there was a jackal nose originally carved and afterward removed? Which way do you tend to lean knowing what you know right now? On a scale of 1-10: 1 being there is no way there was a nose and 10 being there was most certainly a nose.

[ ] 1 (definitely no)
[ ] 2
[ ] 3
[ ] 4
[ ] 5
[ ] 6
[ ] 7
[ ] 8
[ ] 9
[ ] 10 (definitely yes)


[personal attack deleted]


He's over in my thread on the fine tuning of the universe ignoring the problem and pretending to converse. At least he shows up in MY thread, neener, neener, neener! :lol:

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"The problem is most religions proceed to try and explain the truth and then insist that you agree with their explanation." Brad Warner


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:43 am 
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Philo Sofee wrote:

Shulem wrote:
Based on what you see in the enlarged woodcut plate, do you sense that there was a jackal nose originally carved and afterward removed? Which way do you tend to lean knowing what you know right now? On a scale of 1-10: 1 being there is no way there was a nose and 10 being there was most certainly a nose.

[ ] 1 (definitely no)
[ ] 2
[ ] 3
[ ] 4
[ ] 5
[ ] 6
[ ] 7
[ ] 8
[ ] 9
[ ] 10 (definitely yes)


He's over in my thread on the fine tuning of the universe ignoring the problem and pretending to converse. At least he shows up in MY thread, neener, neener, neener! :lol:


Image

You know what, I just thought of something. In order to believe the prophet Joseph Smith was translating the papyrus correctly and representing the Facsimiles in a dignified and honest fashion there is no room whatsoever to entertain the idea that Smith lopped off the snout of Anubis. Either the prophet got it right or he did not! Either he copied the image from the papyrus correctly into the Facsimile or he did not!

Therefore, apologists are really only left with one appropriate choice:

[X] 1 (definitely no)
[ ] 2
[ ] 3
[ ] 4
[ ] 5
[ ] 6
[ ] 7
[ ] 8
[ ] 9
[ ] 10 (definitely yes)

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:53 pm 
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mentalgymnast, [personal attack deleted] With all the stuff you dole out on this board you're too afraid to answer a simple question about the jackal missing in your scriptures.

[personal attack deleted]

:rolleyes:

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:28 pm 
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Shulem wrote:

Pathetic troll!



I figured this is what you were leading up to behind all your false niceties. by the way, if you believe I've exhibited troll like behavior in this thread I would encourage you to report it to the moderators. I do not believe that you are accurate in your assessment.

Regards,
MG


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:31 pm 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
He's over in my thread on the fine tuning of the universe ignoring the problem and pretending to converse.


You guys sure pay a lot of attention to me and follow me around. I feel rather honored. :wink:

For "pretending to converse" I think I did rather well at expressing myself. And I have to say, so did you on occasion!

Regards,
MG


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:33 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
You guys sure pay a lot of attention to me and follow me around. I feel rather honored. :wink:

For "pretending to converse" I think I did rather well at expressing myself. And I have to say, so did you on occasion!

Regards,
MG


Who is following you around? You yourself started this thread to engage Shulem.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:36 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
[personal attack deleted]


I purposefully left this thread once you started doing the pejorative thingy. I'm sure that you've been having fun without me.

You do remember...long ago and far away...I had a question. You asked me to start a new thread and ask the question. This I did. I appreciated your answer. And that was it. Why do you want to bring me back in and tie a rope around my neck?

Regards,
MG


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:43 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
[personal attack deleted]


I purposefully left this thread once you started doing the pejorative thingy. I'm sure that you've been having fun without me.

You do remember...long ago and far away...I had a question. You asked me to start a new thread and ask the question. This I did. I appreciated your answer. And that was it. Why do you want to bring me back in and tie a rope around my neck?

Regards,
MG[/quote]

A drive by shooting question from you started this thread, [personal attack deleted]. Joseph Smith was an idiot.

I asked a simple question. 1-10?

You can't handle it. You won't handle it.

[personal attack deleted]

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:53 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
Quote:
[personal attack deleted]


I purposefully left this thread once you started doing the pejorative thingy. I'm sure that you've been having fun without me.

You do remember...long ago and far away...I had a question. You asked me to start a new thread and ask the question. This I did. I appreciated your answer. And that was it. Why do you want to bring me back in and tie a rope around my neck?

Regards,
MG


Did someone force you to post on it again?

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