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 Post subject: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:22 pm 
God

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Shulem wrote:

I've read Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith several times and recall him offering his ideas and opinions about a variety of things and he makes that quite clear. But when it's not his opinion he states his authority and proclaims things in the name of Jesus Christ and by the power of the Spirit. Consider Smith's authoritative claims regarding Facsimile No. 2. What does he say?

Joseph Smith wrote:
The above translation is given as far as we have any right to give at the present time.


This statement is inscribed by Willard Richards. Between late 1841 and early 1842, correct? There are no earlier iterations that have survived. And it was copied from a prior draft made at another time, right?

Is it a direct quote from Joseph Smith? Can the dots...words...be connected directly to him?

If not, should we conclude that this statement is authoritative?

On the other hand, is it reasonable to conclude/hypothesize that this statement was made under, as you say, "his authority and proclaims things in the name of Jesus Christ and by the power of the Spirit"?

What is the provenance of this statement?

Regards,
MG


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:30 pm 
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Niiiiiiiice! See it's easy to not be [deleted] in all the threads! Come on Shulem, I too would like to understand this actually....

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:45 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
I've read Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith several times and recall him offering his ideas and opinions about a variety of things and he makes that quite clear. But when it's not his opinion he states his authority and proclaims things in the name of Jesus Christ and by the power of the Spirit. Consider Smith's authoritative claims regarding Facsimile No. 2. What does he say?

Joseph Smith wrote:
The above translation is given as far as we have any right to give at the present time.

mentalgymnast wrote:
This statement is inscribed by Willard Richards. Between late 1841 and early 1842, correct? There are no earlier iterations that have survived. And it was copied from a prior draft made at another time, right?

Is it a direct quote from Joseph Smith? Can the dots...words...be connected directly to him?
What if isn't? The LDS church publishes it as part of its canonical scripture? Own it, [personal attack deleted].

mentalgymnast wrote:
If not, should we conclude that this statement is authoritative?

Own it, [personal attack deleted]--or do you realize, whether you include JSjr or not, all the "prophets, seers and revelators" of Mormonism are parading around with hollow, meaningless titles? If you are LDS, then own your scripture. If your not, what the hell are you? Again, own it [personal attack deleted].
mentalgymnast wrote:
On the other hand, is it reasonable to conclude/hypothesize that this statement was made under, as you say, "his authority and proclaims things in the name of Jesus Christ and by the power of the Spirit"?

What is the provenance of this statement?
That's rich coming from a believer, who apparently doesn't have the gonads to own what he professes to believe.

MG, you are every derogatory thing you've ever been called on this board.


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:03 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:16 pm 
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sock puppet wrote:
Own it, [personal attack deleted].

Again, own it [personal attack deleted].

Apparently you don't have any useful answers to my questions. Philo and I will wait to hear from Shulem.

Thanks for chiming in anyway.

Regards,
MG


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:19 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
sock puppet wrote:
Own it, [personal attack deleted]

Again, own it [personal attack deleted].

Apparently you don't have any useful answers to my questions. Philo and I will wait to hear from Shulem.

Thanks for chiming in anyway.

Regards,
MG

Why do you have to respond? It’s like you’re trolling your own thread. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:24 pm 
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It's his way of bearing testimony that his trolling is true...... :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:30 pm 
God

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Philo Sofee wrote:
It's his way of bearing testimony that his trolling is true...... :wink:


At this point I will wait to hear from Shulem.

Regards,
MG


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:36 pm 
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You’ll probably be drinking a dozen bottles of root beer waiting for Shulem to enter this thread.

In the meantime, might I offer an alternative topic? What are your thoughts on ex-Mormons claims they are happier since leaving the church?

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:23 pm 
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I hope that Paul does answer MG's questions. He is one of the most knowledgable historians on this board. And he knows the Book of Abraham, flaws and all, like the back of his hand. He has done extensive research. I'm really glad he's posting in the Terrestrial Forum again.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:24 pm 
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Sanctorian wrote:
You’ll probably be drinking a dozen bottles of root beer waiting for Shulem to enter this thread.

In the meantime, might I offer an alternative topic? What are your thoughts on ex-Mormons claims they are happier since leaving the church?


I wouldn't mind hearing MG's thoughts on this while awaiting Paul's answers.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:10 am 
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So it begins. I look forward to kicking your sorry troll ass, MG.

The publishing of the Book of Abraham was Joseph Smith's own work to include the story and the Explanations of the Facsimiles. Let's begin by opening The Story of the Pearl of Great Price by James R. Clark, 1955:

James R. Clark wrote:
Joseph Smith, while he was editor of the Times and Seasons published the present Book of Abraham in the March 1, March 15, and May 16, 1842 issues. As Joseph Smith's duties became heavier he turned over the editorship of this official church periodical to his assistant, John Taylor, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Eleven months later in February 1843, John Taylor indicated to the saints and subscribers that if their subscriptions were not kept current they would miss the additional translations from the Book of Abraham which Joseph Smith had promised to let him publish:

Taylor writes: "We would further state that we have the promise of Br. Joseph, to furnish us with further extracts from the Book of Abraham (Times and Seasons, February, 1843).


Note that elder Taylor published the Explanations of Facsimile No. 1 in the March 1 edition, Facsimile No. 2 in the March 15 edition, and Facsimile No. 3 in the May 16 edition. Nearly a year later Taylor tells the saints that Joseph promised he would be able to publish further extracts from the Book of Abraham. Thus, the extracts published by Taylor in 1842 are that of Joseph Smith's.

The Story of the Pearl of Great Price continues:

James R. Clark wrote:
The whole history of the publishing of revelations by Joseph Smith in Church periodicals in advance of their appearing in book form lends emphasis to this point. One cannot read the pages of the early periodicals of the Church – The Evening and the Morning Star; The Latter-day Saints Messenger and Advocate; the Millennial Star or the Times and Seasons, all published under the direction of Joseph Smith – without being impressed with the fact that to Joseph Smith, availability of the new revelations of God where people could read them and immediately profit by their instruction was more important than the technicality of having a complete text of these ancient records at the start; but what he did publish must be accurate.


The published revelations and extracts of Joseph Smith given to elder Taylor by the editor Joseph Smith must be accurate. There is no room for error and the revelations of God were to stand as a witness to the whole world that Joseph Smith was translating Egyptian papyrus into the English version of the Book of Abraham. Now, with that said, there is more to be said about connecting the Explanations of Facsimile No. 2 published in the March 15, 1842 issue directly from the mouth of Joseph Smith. But for now, the story continues:

Joseph Smith March 9, 1842 wrote:
Examining copy of the Times and Seasons . . . in the morning; in the afternoon continued the translation of the Book of Abraham, called at Bishop Knight’s and Mr. Davis’, with the recorder, and continued translating and revising, reading letters in the evening, Sister Emma being present in the office.


Here we see that the editor Joseph Smith was on top of his game. He carefully reviewed the revelations he had just published. With that said, there is much more in connecting the dots to Joseph Smith with "The above translation is given as far as we have any right to give, at the present time".

That's just for starters!

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:19 am 
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It's difficult to read the D&C and find two sequential sentences that were actually penned by Joseph Smith and left intact. Large swaths of what MG may consider to be scripture fits his description above.

The specifics of his question also makes me wonder if he is willing to make it a general principle? Is he more inclined to accept Joseph's own portrayal of his early years as ascribed under his name in the Times and Seasons:

"… I was left to all kinds of temptations, and mingling with all kinds of society, I frequently fell into many foolish errors and displayed the weakness of youth and the corruption of human nature, which I am sorry to say led me into divers temptations, to the gratification of many appetites offensive in the sight of God."

or prefer the revised at the hand of Willard Richards from the Joseph Smith History in the PoGP?

“…I was left to all kinds of temptations; and, mingling with all kinds of society, I frequently fell into many foolish errors, and displayed the weakness of youth, and the foibles of human nature; which, I am sorry to say, led me into divers temptations, offensive in the sight of God. In making this confession, no one need suppose me guilty of any great or malignant sins. A disposition to commit such was never in my nature. But I was guilty of levity, and sometimes associated with jovial company, etc., not consistent with that character which ought to be maintained by one who was called of God as I had been. But this will not seem very strange to any one who recollects my youth, and is acquainted with my native cheery temperament.”

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Last edited by honorentheos on Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:07 am 
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wrong thread.


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:01 am 
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In 1835 elder Oliver Cowdery wrote letters and published promises in the Messenger and Advocate that future publications of the writing of Abraham would take place. It was a matter of anticipation and excitement for the church. During very difficult times in Kirtland, in 1837, Smith seriously considered the needs of publication and thereby the First Presidency with approval by a vote of the church appointed an official committee consisting of Phineas Richards and Reuben Hedlock.

History of the Church 2:520 wrote:
To translate business for the Church in procuring means to translate and print the records taken from the Catacombs of Egypt, then in the temple.


The difficult times in Kirtland delayed the progress of publication. The Story of the Pearl of Great Price via Clark provides succinct details about the operation of the press and who was involved:

James R. Clark wrote:
When the saints were once more firmly established, at Nauvoo, Illinois, the Prophet could begin to think again of getting these valuable records into print. We are not told whether Phineas Richards was still associated with the project in Nauvoo, but Reuben Hedlock was given the responsibility of making the wood-cuts that were to illustrate the text of the new Book of Abraham.

In addition to Elder Hedlock, the prophet gathered around him in the printing establishment of the Times and Seasons, an assistant editor and a business manager and the four men to set to work to publish Joseph Smith's translation of the ancient records. Fortunately many of the details of this publishing venture have been preserved to us in the Journals of Joseph Smith and Wilford Woodruff, two of the active participants in the enterprise. From them we learn the role that each of these four men played.

Joseph Smith was the translator and also the Editor of the Times and Seasons, the official Church periodical where the Book of Abraham, or a portion of it, was first published in serial form.

Reuben Hedlock was the wood engraver who made the woodcuts from which the three Facsimiles, or illustrations, for the text were printed.

John Taylor assisted Joseph Smith in writing and editing the material that went into the Times and Seasons.

Wilford Woodruff in addition to being the business manager of the periodical, helped with the type-settting.

These four men were making history in the new red brick printing office in the corner of Water and Bain Streets in Nauvoo, Illinois and were fully conscious of the significance of what they were doing.


Now, with that said, we can see how things are getting set up and will soon be able to determine the answer to MG's questions and learn who and by what authority was really responsible for the publication of the Book of Abraham in the Times and Seasons. In keeping this post from getting too long I shall soon hereafter provide more citations.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:04 am 
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MG already had his ass handed to him. I doubt he’ll respond to Shulem even though this is his thread.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:14 am 
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Wilford Woodruff was totally into Joseph Smith's ability to translate the Egyptian records and harped about his heart burning testimony in his personal diary. It's pretty sappy if you ask me but Woodruff makes no mistake about who is in charge of the project and who the real translator and editor is:

Wilford Woodruff wrote:
Joseph had these records in possession for several years but has never presented them before the world in the English language until now, but he is now about to publish it to the world, or parts of it, by publishing it in the Times and Seasons for Joseph the Seer is now the Editor of that paper and elder Taylor assists him in writing while it has fallen to my lot to take charge of the business part of the establishment. I have had the privilege this day of assisting in setting the TIPE for printing the first piece of the BOOK OF ABRAHAM that is to be presented to the inhabitants of the EARTH in the LAST DAYS.


Now, with that said, further citations from the editor of the Times and Seasons would be most appropriate:

Joseph Smith History of the Church 4:519 wrote:
Thursday, March 1, 1842. During the forenoon I was at my office and the printing office, correcting the first plate or cut of the records of Father Abraham, prepared by Reuben Hedlock, for the Times and Seasons, and in council in my office, in the afternoon; and in the evening with the Twelve and their wives at Elder Woodruff's, at which time I explained many important principles in relation to progressive improvement in the scale of intelligent existence.


Joseph Smith History of the Church 4:542 wrote:
I read proof of the Times and Seasons, as editor for the first time, No. 9, Vol. III., which is the commencement of the Book of Abraham.


Here we see that the editor of the Times and Seasons was none other than Joseph Smith. He was essentially the author of the work. Note now how James R. Clark pays tribute to his cause:

James R. Clark wrote:
It is significant and reassuring to us that Joseph Smith personally corrected the illustrations or Facsimiles and read the proof of the text of his translations of the Book of Abraham before he would allow copies of the Times and Seasons containing it to be circulated. The fact is not without significance because of a subsequent change in the spelling of the name Abraham which we will discuss later in the chapter. In the same issue that contained the first installment of the Book of Abraham the Prophet also announced his sole responsibility for the contents of the Times and Seasons for which he had now assumed full editorial and publication supervision.


Joseph Smith Times and Seasons March 1, 1842 wrote:
This paper commences my editorial career; I alone stand responsible for it, and shall so for all papers having my signature henceforward. I am not responsible for the publication or arrangement of the former paper; the matter did not come under my supervision.


It is firmly established that Joseph Smith was the chief editor of the Times and Seasons and took full responsibility for its contents. Joseph Smith was the prophet, seer, and revelator of the Church. No other man on earth was commissioned of God to receive revelations for the whole church. That privilege belonged solely to Joseph Smith. When Joseph Smith wrote and published "The above translation is given as far as we have any right to give at the present time", he said what he meant and meant what he said.

More to follow all in good time. Feed and slay the troll!

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:08 pm 
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Thanks, Shulem.

Speaking to the larger underlying question, apologists often ask what exactly it was that Joseph Smith wrote or said because they hope that these things will be easier to defend. Only in those cases where that turns out to be true are they really interested. The truth is that Smith’s exact historical legacy is a moving target. The Smith we see is a fiction concocted, edited, and reimagined endlessly. In a sense it does not matter at all who the man was; his products are not what people think they are, nor are they wholly his to begin with. It was not Smith who came up with the idea that Native Americans were Hebrews. This idea first appeared in seventeenth century England. It was most likely Luman Walter who came up with the idea for an ancient Indian book that could only be read by a particular treasure seer.


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:21 pm 
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Well, since Grindael has left the board we can see pump-o-the-clown setting his sights on another poster who decimates the Church's truth claims. He'll probably do a lot of testimonkeying, passive-aggressive insults regarding homosexuality, and an attempt to turn every thread shulem posts on into a thread about himself.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:49 pm 
God

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Sanctorian wrote:
MG already had his ass handed to him. I doubt he’ll respond to Shulem even though this is his thread.


If you go back and look at my original questions you will see that I was interested in the provenance of this statement:

Quote:
The above translation is given as far as we have any right to give at the present time.


The statement was in the hand of Willard Richards, Joseph's scribe. As a result of reading here:

Quote:


I had a question or two in my mind. I asked those questions. I am enjoying Shulem's response. And I thank him for digging up some information and posting it.

I've already stated elsewhere on another thread recently my thoughts in regards to the BofA. I think I was rather transparent. I'm not sure why there is any "ass" to hand back to me. I never put it out there in the first place. :wink:

My approach also parallels that which has been stated by Professor Gee:

Quote:
Those interested in these sorts of questions should constantly bear in mind that the historical evidence is limited and that limitations on the evidence often preclude definitive answers, or sometimes any answers, to the types of questions that we ask. Scholarship can be useful but is often incapable of answering particular questions. But faith does not require everything to be proved. Ironically, the relationship between the Joseph Smith Papyri and the Book of Abraham is a situation in which both believers and detractors must rely on their faith.


and

Quote:
Since, for the most part, Latter-day Saints and Egyptologists agree that the preserved portions of the Joseph Smith Papyri do not contain the Book of Abraham, there is the possibility of detente between the two because scholarship cannot tell what was or was not on the missing papyri. Egyptologists could stick to what is knowable from the remains, and Latter-day Saints could trust God about the origins of the Book of Abraham. Our trust (or faith) in God becomes, for those fortunate enough to possess it, “the basis of what we hope for, the evidence of things unseen” (Hebrews 11:1, my translation). Those who have it require no other proof. Those who have chosen not to trust God will not “be persuaded, though one rose from the dead” (Luke 16:31). If we had the papyrus from which the Book of Abraham was translated—and I testify that we do not—the critics would not believe it; and most of them could not read it anyway. One of the ironies of the Joseph Smith Papyri is that critics (and even some Egyptologists), who are quick to point out what the papyri are not, are otherwise uninterested in what they contain. They could be a laundry list, a get-well card, or the greatest piece of literature ever written; it does not matter so long as they are not the Book of Abraham, so long as they are not scripture, so long as they do not contain the words of God, so long as they are not conveyed by a prophet of God. Here, though, is another great irony. The Rosetta Stone ends with a passage that directs that it be written “on a stone stele in the writing of words of god (hieroglyphs), the writing of letters (Demotic), and the script of the foreigners (Greek).”[125] For the Egyptians, hieroglyphs are literally the “words of God.” For the Egyptians, the Joseph Smith Papyri contain the words of God, conveyed by a prophet of God, just as for Latter-day Saints, the Book of Abraham contains the words of God, conveyed by a prophet of God.


As I've also stated many times on this board, I am just a regular guy. I am no John Gee or Robert Ritner, even though I've read some of their stuff along with some other experts in the field. There is a LOT of stuff to wade through in regards to the BofA. So I, along with others here who also expressed an interest, am interested in Shulem's response to my questions. For him and others that are simply out to get some "troll meat" and/or kick some ass, fine. But that's not why I asked the questions in the first place. I have a natural curiosity for looking at different points of view and information from as many sources as I can.

And that's a sin? :confused:

Anyway, thanks again Shulem for the time you're taking to respond...even though it appears that your motivations may be a bit less than what I would consider to be civil/respectful.

Be that as it may...

I look forward to reading your further commentary, etc.

Regards,
MG


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions for Shulem
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:38 pm 
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Quote:
MG quoting John Gee
My approach also parallels that which has been stated by Professor Gee:

Those interested in these sorts of questions should constantly bear in mind that the historical evidence is limited and that limitations on the evidence often preclude definitive answers, or sometimes any answers, to the types of questions that we ask. Scholarship can be useful but is often incapable of answering particular questions. But faith does not require everything to be proved. Ironically, the relationship between the Joseph Smith Papyri and the Book of Abraham is a situation in which both believers and detractors must rely on their faith.


Faith is only ever invoked when a position does not have the needed evidence in order for it to become knowledge. The invocation of faith is proof that the apologists cannot defend what Joseph claimed to have and to have done. The Book of Abraham is not on the papyri as Joseph Smith stated, Joseph Smith is wrong QED. Saying we have to now go with faith is irrelevant, it does not change what evidence we have showing Joseph Smith is wrong. Only and always evidence is needed to refute that Joseph Smith is wrong. LDS don't have that evidence, so there is no reason for us to believe Joseph Smith until that evidence shows up. The evidence shows Joseph Smith was wrong, therefore we are perfectly justified in going with the evidence, even though it is tentative, it is more probable and that is a valid foundation to lay doubt on. Thank you for quoting Gee and confirming my doubt about Joseph Smith.

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"The problem is most religions proceed to try and explain the truth and then insist that you agree with their explanation." Brad Warner


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