Looking for a TBM friendly piece on Tithing: net vs gross

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_Mormonicious
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Re: Looking for a TBM friendly piece on Tithing: net vs gros

Post by _Mormonicious »

Fence Sitter wrote:By the way this is exactly why the church leaves it ambiguous because they know members will err on the side of caution when it comes to paying for divine indulgences.


EXACTLY!!! Further light and knowledge would only hurt the parasite called the Mormon church.
Revelation 2:17 . . give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. Thank Google GOD for her son eBay, you can now have life eternal with laser engraving. . oh, and a seer stone and save 10% of your life's earning as a bonus. See you in Mormon man god Heaven Bitches!!. Bring on the Virgins
_QuestionEverything
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Re: Looking for a TBM friendly piece on Tithing: net vs gros

Post by _QuestionEverything »

I have a question wrote:
QuestionEverything wrote:I have definitely considered what you're suggesting in the past, as to some extent it is the way the system is supposed to work. But a couple of issues complicate this:

1. The Church encourages the individual/family to obtain whatever assistance they can from their family, before turning to the Church.

2. I have been concerned that having the Church assist them in this way would increase the bond they have with the Church, which is the last thing I want to do. Yes, it would save me money, but if it decreases the likelihood that they'll see their way out, I'd rather assume the financial burden.

That's why I would like to present them with an alternative, which if followed, would be a win-win, and perhaps provide a little insight on how the Church really works.

Thanks.

And it is a dilemma. How to wake them up without appearing to be the person trying to wake them up. I do wish you good luck.

The City Creek development, for which liquid Church funds were used, and the disparity between that and humanitarian expenditure does for a lot of people.

The Church just spent $35 million on an old manuscript, and $11 million on humanitarian aid. An interesting comparison.


I think pointing out how the Church uses its funds could be a good component of the discussion. As you point out, the Church's priorities are clearly not on humanitarian efforts: "where you treasure is, there will be your heart also." That says it pretty well, actually.
_QuestionEverything
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Re: Looking for a TBM friendly piece on Tithing: net vs gros

Post by _QuestionEverything »

Mormonicious wrote:For me and many of my friends the final straw on Gross vs. Net was summed up by Jon Huntsman Sr.

Jon Huntsman Sr. has given away about $1.5 billion to worthy causes – about 80% of his total wealth. He is also spending $200 million building Huntsman Springs, a golf resort and nature reserve in Idaho that will donate all proceeds of real estate sold to his family’s charitable foundation. But neither of these totals include his strict tithing to the Mormon church of 10% of everything he has ever earned.

“My philanthropy is not borne out of my faith,” he says. “They require 10% tithing. I don’t consider that to be philanthropy and I don’t consider it to be part of my philanthropic giving. I consider it as club dues.

“People who put money in the church basket and people who go to church and pay the pastor: that isn’t real philanthropy, that’s just like you belong to a country club. You pay your dues to belong to that church so you pay your tithing or whatever it is. I’ve never added that into my philanthropy in any way because I just think it’s a part of a person’s life.”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewcave ... 76c5b3e11d

I personally don't belong to a Country Club NOR DO I HAVE THE MONEY TO.


A great perspective - thanks.
_QuestionEverything
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Re: Looking for a TBM friendly piece on Tithing: net vs gros

Post by _QuestionEverything »

toon wrote:I remember several years back I was in some financial trouble and needed help from my dad, who had never been a member of the church. He helped freely without any conditions, but he also suggested that I provide him with a monthly budget of all expenses to see if there was something on it that he could help with (e.g., too high of insurance premiums, refinancing mortgage, etc.). I put together the budget and included tithing. Not surprisingly, his suggestion was that tithing and some other luxuries were things that should be cut if expenses exceeded income.

I know most believing Mormons will not see tithing as a luxury. To them, it's a necessity. But perhaps paying on gross could be seen as a luxury.


Appreciate the reply. I don't know where you are now in regards to the Church, but how did you react to your Dad's suggestion?
_QuestionEverything
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Re: Looking for a TBM friendly piece on Tithing: net vs gros

Post by _QuestionEverything »

Fence Sitter wrote:
QuestionEverything wrote:
With that as background, I am wanting to at least present to them the option of paying tithing on their income, after taxes and other reasonable expenses, rather than on the gross. This would likely have a significant practical impact on their financial health, short of not tithing at all, which would not be an acceptable option for them at this time.



Regardless of what you may offer them in the way of Church friendly sources, they believe in a religion driven by "feelings" or as they like to call it "the Holy Spirit". So even if you could provide official sources which allow for tithing on net income, I would expect them to continue to pay on their gross because it "feels right".

This is an ongoing discussion I have with my TBM wife who, regardless of how many scriptures or talks I can cite that indicates it can be on income net, she pays on her gross because she feels that is the right thing to do.

By the way this is exactly why the church leaves it ambiguous because they know members will err on the side of caution when it comes to paying for divine indulgences.


I agree that the Epistemological basis of a 'testimony' is the underlying problem here, and to some degree, it is almost impossible to undermine. How one puts a chink in that armor, poking a hole to allow at least a little light in, is a major challenge.

But given the financial duress they are experiencing, perhaps there is a slight chance that the right approach on this very practical issue, might lead to some internal reflection.

As I semi-jokingly said to a friend when discussing this type of situation: "God doesn't bless people, I bless people." For the theists here, I'm only semi-serious, and realize these are complex matters, but it still gives me a chuckle.
_Fence Sitter
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Re: Looking for a TBM friendly piece on Tithing: net vs gros

Post by _Fence Sitter »

QuestionEverything wrote:I agree that the Epistemological basis of a 'testimony' is the underlying problem here, and to some degree, it is almost impossible to undermine. How one puts a chink in that armor, poking a hole to allow at least a little light in, is a major challenge.

But given the financial duress they are experiencing, perhaps there is a slight chance that the right approach on this very practical issue, might lead to some internal reflection.

As I semi-jokingly said to a friend when discussing this type of situation: "God doesn't bless people, I bless people." For the theists here, I'm only semi-serious, and realize these are complex matters, but it still gives me a chuckle.


Let me know if anything works. It might save me some money too.

I suppose since it is your kids and they know how you stand on the church, you may ask them why you should give them money when you know they are still paying their tithing? Though those kind of questions tend to end in arguments that end relationships.

As a side note, my parents helped us out too, even though I never paid tithing or was active at that time, so I suppose this conversation goes both ways. My experience is that if you give your kids money, it is with the expectation that it is never returned and that there are no strings attached. While I eventually paid my parents back in later years with interest, I was grateful there never was any pressure on me to pay them back or change the way I lived because I owed them money. In my opinion maintaining relationships with my kids outweighs any amount of money.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_QuestionEverything
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Re: Looking for a TBM friendly piece on Tithing: net vs gros

Post by _QuestionEverything »

Fence Sitter wrote:
QuestionEverything wrote:I agree that the Epistemological basis of a 'testimony' is the underlying problem here, and to some degree, it is almost impossible to undermine. How one puts a chink in that armor, poking a hole to allow at least a little light in, is a major challenge.

But given the financial duress they are experiencing, perhaps there is a slight chance that the right approach on this very practical issue, might lead to some internal reflection.

As I semi-jokingly said to a friend when discussing this type of situation: "God doesn't bless people, I bless people." For the theists here, I'm only semi-serious, and realize these are complex matters, but it still gives me a chuckle.


Let me know if anything works. It might save me some money too.

I suppose since it is your kids and they know how you stand on the church, you may ask them why you should give them money when you know they are still paying their tithing? Though those kind of questions tend to end in arguments that end relationships.

As a side note, my parents helped us out too, even though I never paid tithing or was active at that time, so I suppose this conversation goes both ways. My experience is that if you give your kids money, it is with the expectation that it is never returned and that there are no strings attached. While I eventually paid my parents back in later years with interest, I was grateful there never was any pressure on me to pay them back or change the way I lived because I owed them money. In my opinion maintaining relationships with my kids outweighs any amount of money.


I have to agree with you, although on one level, it is tempting to 'leverage' our help - to at least just sit down and have an open exchange of ideas and information. But that would likely backfire.

And as I indicated above, I don't want to encourage their sense of obligation to the Church by having them assisted financially by the Church, so I will just have to do what it takes to give them the help they need, and to be there when they might have questions.
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