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 Post subject: Re: L. Whitney Clayton Is Rumored To Be The Next Apostle
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:06 pm 
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grindael wrote:
And of course he is a descendant of William Clayton. The Nepotism just goes on and on, doesn't it?


Well, grindael, we have an entire folk theology about the spirits of the premortal righteous being born into privileged families, leadership lines, and so on and so forth. Hinduism with a twist of Mormon lemon.

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 Post subject: Re: L. Whitney Clayton Is Rumored To Be The Next Apostle
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:36 pm 
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I'm stunned but shouldn't be.

Clayton may be the only public member of the SCMC. It makes sense for him to take the reigns from Nelson.


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 Post subject: Re: L. Whitney Clayton Is Rumored To Be The Next Apostle
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:16 pm 
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oh, the good ole times...

when one of kims, castros smiths were followed by another kims, castros smiths

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 Post subject: Re: L. Whitney Clayton Is Rumored To Be The Next Apostle
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:51 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
What is the precedent for first presidencies when a new prophet is called? If Monson died today and Nelson moved up, would he most likely retain Eyring and Uchtdorf in their current roles?

I'd be willing to bet that Nelson will choose Oaks as his First Counselor, and the Second Counselor will be the Apostle who has the most potential of being corrupted.


Last edited by GameOver on Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: L. Whitney Clayton Is Rumored To Be The Next Apostle
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:07 pm 
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Choyo Chagas wrote:
oh, the good ole times...

when one of kims, castros smiths were followed by another kims, castros smiths


:biggrin: :biggrin: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: L. Whitney Clayton Is Rumored To Be The Next Apostle
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:40 am 
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GameOver wrote:
Water Dog wrote:
What is the precedent for first presidencies when a new prophet is called? If Monson died today and Nelson moved up, would he most likely retain Eyring and Uchtdorf in their current roles?

I'd be willing to bet that Nelson will choose Oaks as his First Counselor, and the Second Counselor will be the Apostle who has the most potential of being corrupted.


I suspect Nelson would want an ally as President of the Q12, so perhaps he’d leave Oaks there as President, and then control both ‘houses’ as it were.

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 Post subject: Re: L. Whitney Clayton Is Rumored To Be The Next Apostle
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:29 am 
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Water Dog wrote:
fetchface wrote:
:lol: I'd believe that if it was just some 11-year-old boy and not his son. This wasn't the only son he ordained as an apostle, after all. God sure wanted Young's sons to be apostles. :rolleyes:

Well BYU Idaho didn't exist yet, so he couldn't make them president of any universities.


don't't forget they made jeffrey holland's a university president.


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 Post subject: Re: L. Whitney Clayton Is Rumored To Be The Next Apostle
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:49 am 
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Wonhyo wrote:
grindael wrote:
And of course he is a descendant of William Clayton. The Nepotism just goes on and on, doesn't it?


Well, grindael, we have an entire folk theology about the spirits of the premortal righteous being born into privileged families, leadership lines, and so on and so forth. Hinduism with a twist of Mormon lemon.


Nicely done.


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 Post subject: Re: L. Whitney Clayton Is Rumored To Be The Next Apostle
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:25 am 
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grindael wrote:
And of course he is a descendant of William Clayton. The Nepotism just goes on and on, doesn't it?


:lol:
Aren't they all descendants of somebody significant in Church history?
It allows for more ancestral anecdotes at Conference.

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 Post subject: Re: L. Whitney Clayton Is Rumored To Be The Next Apostle
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:58 am 
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JLHPROF wrote:
grindael wrote:
And of course he is a descendant of William Clayton. The Nepotism just goes on and on, doesn't it?


:lol:
Aren't they all descendants of somebody significant in Church history?
It allows for more ancestral anecdotes at Conference.


I know it's easy to poke fun at their blatant nepotism, but the issue isn't going to go away if they keep doing it. Those days are long past. I'm sure there is a wealth of talent to choose from in other parts of the world. But it seems as if they feel that the choicest "spirits" had to come through those original pioneers. It's rather silly. They claim their God is no respecter of persons, but they sure appear to be.

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 Post subject: Re: L. Whitney Clayton Is Rumored To Be The Next Apostle
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:00 pm 
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JLHPROF wrote:
grindael wrote:
And of course he is a descendant of William Clayton. The Nepotism just goes on and on, doesn't it?


:lol:
Aren't they all descendants of somebody significant in Church history?
It allows for more ancestral anecdotes at Conference.

Uchtdorf?


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 Post subject: Re: L. Whitney Clayton Is Rumored To Be The Next Apostle
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:51 am 
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When I was a very young lawyer I was sitting in a courtroom waiting for a hearing. I watched a judge berate a woman for having the temerity to show up for a hearing without a lawyer and unable to speak English. The judge was cruel and wouldn't let it go. A fellow stepped out of the seated onlookers where I was seated, identified himself as Whitney Clayton, and said that he would be her lawyer. He had a brief conversation with her in Spanish and then made the problem go away.

Since then I have had an opportunity to get to know him. I remarkable example of a Christian diciple.


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 Post subject: Re: L. Whitney Clayton Is Rumored To Be The Next Apostle
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:46 am 
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Yahoo Bot wrote:
When I was a very young lawyer I was sitting in a courtroom waiting for a hearing. I watched a judge berate a woman for having the temerity to show up for a hearing without a lawyer and unable to speak English. The judge was cruel and wouldn't let it go. A fellow stepped out of the seated onlookers where I was seated, identified himself as Whitney Clayton, and said that he would be her lawyer. He had a brief conversation with her in Spanish and then made the problem go away.

Since then I have had an opportunity to get to know him. I remarkable example of a Christian diciple.


And who was that judge? His name was Lance Ito. And then the entire courtroom spontaneously erupted in applause and shouts of joy. Overcome by Counselor Clayton's heart Judge Ito began to cry and knelt at the woman's feet. He begged for forgiveness.

The woman said, "Verily I say unto you, inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these, ye have done it unto me.", and the courtroom fell silent.

Judge Ito looked up through red, teary eyes and behold, it wasn't that poor woman he berated earlier, but the Lord Savior Himself!

Jesus turned to Counselor Clayton and said, "Verily, thy work has begun in Man's kingdom, but I stateth truth when I sayeth thy work finnisheth in thy Lord God's house."

And with that a bright light, more brilliant than that of the Sun, shown brightly, and suddenly a loud snap, louder still than that of a gun, snapped loudly. And the Lord was vanished.

I say all these were true and right in the name of the our Lord Almighty, the Savior of Mankind (not the wrestler), Jesus THE Christ, Amen.

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 Post subject: Re: L. Whitney Clayton Is Rumored To Be The Next Apostle
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:02 am 
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Robert Crockett wrote:
When I was a very young lawyer I was sitting in a courtroom waiting for a hearing. I watched a judge berate a woman for having the temerity to show up for a hearing without a lawyer and unable to speak English. The judge was cruel and wouldn't let it go. A fellow stepped out of the seated onlookers where I was seated, identified himself as Whitney Clayton, and said that he would be her lawyer. He had a brief conversation with her in Spanish and then made the problem go away.

Bob, if you're going to continue making up faith promoting stories at least try to make them sound somewhat believable. Have you learned nothing from Paul H. Dunn? Good grief.

Robert Crockett wrote:
I remarkable example of a Christian diciple.

Yes Bob, you certainly are a remarkable example of a Christian "diciple" (gently patting Bob's head). Thanks for reminding us what a great and remarkable person you are. I know I tend to forget unless you continue to remind me.

Afterall, the hallmark of a real Christian "diciple" is to boast about how righteous and remarkable they truly are. :rolleyes: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: L. Whitney Clayton Is Rumored To Be The Next Apostle
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:11 am 
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Yahoo Bot wrote:
When I was a very young lawyer I was sitting in a courtroom waiting for a hearing. I watched a judge berate a woman for having the temerity to show up for a hearing without a lawyer and unable to speak English. The judge was cruel and wouldn't let it go. A fellow stepped out of the seated onlookers where I was seated, identified himself as Whitney Clayton, and said that he would be her lawyer. He had a brief conversation with her in Spanish and then made the problem go away.

Since then I have had an opportunity to get to know him. I remarkable example of a Christian diciple.


That is a moving anecdote. Good for him, if this is accurate. Not saying it isn't.

The many contradictions and inconsistencies of human beings are remarkable. One can be both the person who comes to the defense of a woman being attacked by a cruel judge and the inquisitor who is pursuing perceived enemies of the faith.


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 Post subject: Re: L. Whitney Clayton Is Rumored To Be The Next Apostle
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:09 am 
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The Rev wrote:
That is a moving anecdote. Good for him, if this is accurate. Not saying it isn't.

The many contradictions and inconsistencies of human beings are remarkable. One can be both the person who comes to the defense of a woman being attacked by a cruel judge and the inquisitor who is pursuing perceived enemies of the faith.


Bot's story is interesting for sure. Compassion from the Brethren, especially those deep within the Mormon KGB, is likely proportional to their perceived control of a situation. The widow and the orphan deserve compassion because their allegiance is cheaply bought. It's relatively easy for a capable person to set himself up as a defender of the weak. The weak are grateful and submissive, but even when they aren't, they still aren't a threat. Real compassion is Jesus forgiving the Romans who crucified him. What the ruling Brethren are likely unable to tolerate, what really sets them off, is a person who is capable, who knows what the Brethren know, who shares their LDS upbringing, but who dares think differently than they do. The guy who doesn't want a tower built right behind his house to obstruct his view of the mountains, even after the Brethren have invited him to do what they say. The woman who thinks priesthood isn't restricted to sex. It must really curdle their blood.


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 Post subject: Re: L. Whitney Clayton Is Rumored To Be The Next Apostle
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:48 am 
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Gadianton wrote:
Bot's story is interesting for sure. Compassion from the Brethren, especially those deep within the Mormon KGB, is likely proportional to their perceived control of a situation. The widow and the orphan deserve compassion because their allegiance is cheaply bought. It's relatively easy for a capable person to set himself up as a defender of the weak. The weak are grateful and submissive, but even when they aren't, they still aren't a threat. Real compassion is Jesus forgiving the Romans who crucified him. What the ruling Brethren are likely unable to tolerate, what really sets them off, is a person who is capable, who knows what the Brethren know, who shares their LDS upbringing, but who dares think differently than they do. The guy who doesn't want a tower built right behind his house to obstruct his view of the mountains, even after the Brethren have invited him to do what they say. The woman who thinks priesthood isn't restricted to sex. It must really curdle their blood.


Very insightful as usual, Dean Robbers.


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 Post subject: Re: L. Whitney Clayton Is Rumored To Be The Next Apostle
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:32 am 
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I have a question wrote:
I'd be willing to bet that Nelson will choose Oaks as his First Counselor, and the Second Counselor will be the Apostle who has the most potential of being corrupted.

I suspect Nelson would want an ally as President of the Q12, so perhaps he’d leave Oaks there as President, and then control both ‘houses’ as it were.


Do we think they'd drop both Eyeing and Uchtdorf. My bet is Eyring stays and the progressive Uchtdorf is dropped in favor of a more conservative (Bednar maybe? Or Holland.)

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 Post subject: Re: L. Whitney Clayton Is Rumored To Be The Next Apostle
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:52 pm 
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Do they make these kind of decisions and announcements quickly, or will they wait until the April General Conference to pick a replacement?

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 Post subject: Re: L. Whitney Clayton Is Rumored To Be The Next Apostle
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:56 pm 
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Gadianton wrote:
The Rev wrote:
That is a moving anecdote. Good for him, if this is accurate. Not saying it isn't.

The many contradictions and inconsistencies of human beings are remarkable. One can be both the person who comes to the defense of a woman being attacked by a cruel judge and the inquisitor who is pursuing perceived enemies of the faith.


Bot's story is interesting for sure. Compassion from the Brethren, especially those deep within the Mormon KGB, is likely proportional to their perceived control of a situation. The widow and the orphan deserve compassion because their allegiance is cheaply bought. It's relatively easy for a capable person to set himself up as a defender of the weak. The weak are grateful and submissive, but even when they aren't, they still aren't a threat. Real compassion is Jesus forgiving the Romans who crucified him. What the ruling Brethren are likely unable to tolerate, what really sets them off, is a person who is capable, who knows what the Brethren know, who shares their LDS upbringing, but who dares think differently than they do. The guy who doesn't want a tower built right behind his house to obstruct his view of the mountains, even after the Brethren have invited him to do what they say. The woman who thinks priesthood isn't restricted to sex. It must really curdle their blood.


It takes a huge amount of courage for a business lawyer like me, or Whitney Clayton, to rise to the defense of an immigrant being berated by an irate judge. I certainly sat there in stunned silence with the rest of the crowded courtroom. In fact, I've seen plenty of poor people being berated by judges for not being prepared for a hearing, and lectured about the fact that they shouldn't get any breaks. (Of course, many good judges don't do that and try to help out.) In the decades of practice, I have never once seen a lawyer step forward in the middle of a courtroom diatribe and say, "Let me volunteer to help this person." Except Whitney Clayton.

I have also had the opportunity to work with Whitney Clayton directly as a professional. There just isn't a finer human being. I cannot remotely approach his Christian discipleness. Mock me all you want, and call me a liar. This the time and place for me to step forward an provide my personal witness about this fine fellow.


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 Post subject: Re: L. Whitney Clayton Is Rumored To Be The Next Apostle
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:13 pm 
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Yahoo Bot wrote:
It takes a huge amount of courage for a business lawyer like me, or Whitney Clayton, to rise to the defense of an immigrant being berated by an irate judge. I certainly sat there in stunned silence with the rest of the crowded courtroom. In fact, I've seen plenty of poor people being berated by judges for not being prepared for a hearing, and lectured about the fact that they shouldn't get any breaks. (Of course, many good judges don't do that and try to help out.) In the decades of practice, I have never once seen a lawyer step forward in the middle of a courtroom diatribe and say, "Let me volunteer to help this person." Except Whitney Clayton.

I have also had the opportunity to work with Whitney Clayton directly as a professional. There just isn't a finer human being. I cannot remotely approach his Christian discipleness. Mock me all you want, and call me a liar. This the time and place for me to step forward an provide my personal witness about this fine fellow.


Yahoo Bot, I don't see that anybody is necessarily impugning Clayton's moment of courage and compassion in a courtroom, or his general good Christian character. But it's not a secret Clayton's a bit strident in ecclesiastical matters. He hasn't shown a lot of flexibility or willingness to be flexible.

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