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 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:09 am 
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Kishkumen wrote:
...as a missionary. I was out teaching a discussion with a stake missionary. The investigator said the Book of Mormon looked cribbed from the Bible at parts. I opined that Joseph Smith had probably broken out the Bible when he reached parts that were pretty much the same as the Bible anyway. Sort of a translation aid, you see.

The stake missionary went ballistic. When we left he paced and ranted, yelling at me that I should never, ever say anything like that again. I found it odd since it seemed like such a reasonable explanation.
Somehow denying the obvious similarities would have been better,
according to the stake missionary. I can't imagine how. On my mission, we were instructed to respond something like: "Precisely.
The Book of Mormon is another testament of the same person, Jesus. If there weren't similarities, one would wonder if the Book of Mormon and the New Testament were talking about the same man." That always brought to my mind then the obvious redundancy, leaving the Book of Mormon superfluous.
Kishkumen wrote:
Ah, the memories. Religion is really very bizarre. We are all in search of the meaning of things, coming up with explanations that feel good and seem right. In a church you have to hold the party line and restrain your passion for inquiry. If you get too far into figuring things out, you will very likely figure yourself out of your religious community, either because you come to see it makes no sense, or you find the fatal flaws in the sense the church authorities make of it.
That's the stake president's dilemma that consiglieri poses. He's delved deep, he became the scriptorian that he like most of us his age were exhorted to become. Problem was, breaking the Mormon molecule down into its atomic parts, and those subatomic parts makes it nearly impossible to reconstruct back into the molecule. The LDS truth claims are a 110 level class, and once you've taken a 300 level course or two, you just can't return to and abide by the gloss-overs that the 110 instruction involves. Most SPs know that. The stake president in this case said the words, but would actually fear that consiglieri might return to attending where his in-depth explanations, worts and all, of points of the Correlated narrative could only serve at best to frighten others in the flock, at worst pique their own curiosity and study and exodus from activity. The meeting was so the stake president could assess the threat that consiglieri posed, and decide if they needed to cauterize the 'wound' by excommunicating consiglieri now, to stanch the bleeding--as excommunicating him would cause others in the flock to shutter with horror, and step in closer in the protected circle.


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 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:37 am 
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sock puppet wrote:
The meeting was so the stake president could assess the threat that consiglieri posed, and decide if they needed to cauterize the 'wound' by excommunicating consiglieri now, to stanch the bleeding--as excommunicating him would cause others in the flock to shutter with horror, and step in closer in the protected circle.


Yep, that was the primary focus in having the meeting. It's not over. There will be an assessment of the situation and there may be an overseer in which the Stake President is reporting to about this matter.

My best bet is that consiglieri's days as a Mormon are numbered. He's going to be sacrificed on the altar of excommunication. He's a lamb going to the slaughter. They must judge and punish him in order to validate their own position and convictions.

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A fool said, "Say what you like. The figure which Joseph Smith identifies as the "slave" is not an image of Anubis, nor is it functioning as Anubis in the image that is displayed." (zerinus)


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 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:52 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
sock puppet wrote:
The meeting was so the stake president could assess the threat that consiglieri posed, and decide if they needed to cauterize the 'wound' by excommunicating consiglieri now, to stanch the bleeding--as excommunicating him would cause others in the flock to shutter with horror, and step in closer in the protected circle.


Yep, that was the primary focus in having the meeting. It's not over. There will be an assessment of the situation and there may be an overseer in which the Stake President is reporting to about this matter.

My best bet is that consiglieri's days as a Mormon are numbered. He's going to be sacrificed on the altar of excommunication. He's a lamb going to the slaughter. They must judge and punish him in order to validate their own position and convictions.

I think it depends on an unknown factor at this point: how consiglieri came to the attention of the stake president. The stake president indicated he had read some of consiglieri's writings, but not all of them. This suggests to me that the ones the stake president read were pointed out to him. Had he investigated the situation on his own, the stake president might have read all or none (TL;DR situation). That the stake president had read 'select' writings of consiglieri suggests to me that the stake president was pointed to those that he read. Who did the pointing and why? SCMC? A stake official or member? A referral from someone outside of the stake, but not from Headquarters? I'm not convinced that it was just consiglieri's ex-wife and her bishop; that contact could have been initiated by the stake president in doing a bit of homework ahead of the meeting he had, at the stake president's request, with consiglieri. I think the stake president was satisfied by the end of talking with consiglieri that he posed no real threat to the flock, even though the verbal reminder that the stake president is in the priesthood line above consiglieri did come across as a bit of a veiled warning. Should consiglieri not ratchet up the vocalization of his concerns about LDS church/truth cliams, then the stake president is likely not going to move further towards discipline. But if and when the stake president reports back to whomever, that source might not be satisfied and push the stake president to take additional steps.


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 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:39 pm 
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sock puppet wrote:
I think it depends on an unknown factor at this point: how consiglieri came to the attention of the stake president. The stake president indicated he had read some of consiglieri's writings, but not all of them. This suggests to me that the ones the stake president read were pointed out to him. Had he investigated the situation on his own, the stake president might have read all or none (TL;DR situation). That the stake president had read 'select' writings of consiglieri suggests to me that the stake president was pointed to those that he read. Who did the pointing and why? SCMC? A stake official or member? A referral from someone outside of the stake, but not from Headquarters? I'm not convinced that it was just consiglieri's ex-wife and her bishop; that contact could have been initiated by the stake president in doing a bit of homework ahead of the meeting he had, at the stake president's request, with consiglieri. I think the stake president was satisfied by the end of talking with consiglieri that he posed no real threat to the flock, even though the verbal reminder that the stake president is in the priesthood line above consiglieri did come across as a bit of a veiled warning. Should consiglieri not ratchet up the vocalization of his concerns about LDS church/truth cliams, then the stake president is likely not going to move further towards discipline. But if and when the stake president reports back to whomever, that source might not be satisfied and push the stake president to take additional steps.


Indeed, and stake presidents are far too busy to do research or surveying on their own time. They depend on what's brought to them. They are the hub in the stake and there are plenty of spokes to feed them information. My impression based on what's been said is that there is a higher-up involved in this investigation or at least someone who has charged the stake president to investigate the member, confirm the information supplied, and make a determination if the member is hostile to the church or helping members leave through apostasy. At bear minimum, someone has complained and has charged him with general apostasy. That's for sure.

I don't think this matter is closed. The stake president is going to analyze what has happened and continue to review his information and perhaps look deeper. It's going to lead to excommunication in my opinion. The website is simply unacceptable to the church. If I was a faithful stake president, I would order the member to take it down or face church discipline and let the chips fall where they may.

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A fool said, "Say what you like. The figure which Joseph Smith identifies as the "slave" is not an image of Anubis, nor is it functioning as Anubis in the image that is displayed." (zerinus)


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 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:54 pm 
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As far as every member a scholar, there is a way to do it. I had an mission president who had been a personal friend of Bruce R., and the influence was obvious. He told me that he studied by writing talks. His sources were the scriptures and Ensign, and his face lit up as he said it was "fun" to write talks and he'd written hundreds. He never strayed outside these sources not had any curiosity about what lay beyond. If he really got stuck, he'd consult Mormon Doctrine. I thought it was amazing that even such a conservative book written by his friend and mentor was still deemed as right there at the outer limits, about as far as a reasonable person would dare look, but don't look too long.


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 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:29 pm 
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Gadianton wrote:
As far as every member a scholar, there is a way to do it. I had an mission president who had been a personal friend of Bruce R., and the influence was obvious. He told me that he studied by writing talks. His sources were the scriptures and Ensign, and his face lit up as he said it was "fun" to write talks and he'd written hundreds. He never strayed outside these sources not had any curiosity about what lay beyond. If he really got stuck, he'd consult Mormon Doctrine. I thought it was amazing that even such a conservative book written by his friend and mentor was still deemed as right there at the outer limits, about as far as a reasonable person would dare look, but don't look too long.


I have been doing mediocre research on core LDS doctrine in regards to man earning their salvation, and exaltation, in post Bruce R. McConkie sources. I have been reading through many talks by GA's from BR's time up until now.

My point...and you struck a key when you discussed "talks," is that LDS core doctrine and systematic theology as taught by Bruce R. McConkie, Joseph Fielding Smith, Hunter, GAS, Benson, Talmage, Richards, Widstoe and others, is long gone, and the new LDS theology are fluffy talks.

I discuss LDS theology with TBM's on another forum, and I am blown away how milk feed the saints are now days...they have no understanding of core LDS thought, and they describe their faith in "talk" form...they typically have a talking point defense, and once taken out of the talking point box...are lost as to what the church actually teaches.

Anyways, for what it is worth you struck a key with me with your "talk" story.

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 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:56 am 
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Sign!

Fence Sitter wrote:
I have the same question.

And for those saying "dodge the Stake President, kick the can down the road," what does that even accomplish? What's the point?

Because some of us, like Consig and myself, have immediate family still fully invested in the church. I do not accept any claim the church has as an authority over myself any more than I accept claims by other religions than I am going to hell because I am a Mormon. They are both meaningless. With how some of my family feels about the church, why should I resign a membership that is meaningless to me while at the same time important to them?

Oh and I also think you are conflating how Consiglieri feels about the Salt Lake City based businesslike organization calling itself a church with how he feels about Mormonism itself. The majority of his issues are with the former, while he still admires and is very interested about the latter.

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About Joseph Smith.. How do you think his persona was influenced by being the storyteller since childhood? Mastering the art of going pale, changing his voice, and mesmerizing his audience.. How do you think he was influenced by keeping secrets and lying for his wife and the church members for decades?


Last edited by Uther on Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:10 am 
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Runtu wrote:
My practice, after a few bad experiences, is to ask what they want to talk to me about before I'll agree to see them. If the stake president wants to talk to you about something you're comfortable talking about, that's one thing, but if they are calling you in to call you to repentance and/or threaten you with discipline, you don't have to go if you don't want to.

I think that this is a good idea. I would simply explain to your friend that you have a busy work schedule, and you need to know specifically what it is that your Stake President would like to meet with you about. I would be blunt. Tell him that you have no interest in wasting your time and his if he is interested in, as Runtu said, "calling you to repentance".

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"Friends don't let friends be Mormon." Sock Puppet, MormonDiscussions.com.

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 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:46 pm 
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Consig's ability to present as a knowledgeable amateur scholar and historian verses a lying, hostile anti-Mormon is his biggest threat to the Chapel Mormons of his stake (or in ear shot of his podcasts).

The way his stake president read him, is exactly how all of us read him. If the stake president has Area Authority handlers encouraging him it's exactly this presentation of which they should fear the most.


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 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:10 pm 
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RockSlider wrote:
Consig's ability to present as a knowledgeable amateur scholar and historian verses a lying, hostile anti-Mormon is his biggest threat to the Chapel Mormons of his stake (or in ear shot of his podcasts).

The way his stake president read him, is exactly how all of us read him. If the stake president has Area Authority handlers encouraging him it's exactly this presentation of which they should fear the most.

Yes, the boogey-man is a particularly useful straw man to set up and fell (excommunicate) as a lying, hostile anti-Mormon. It's better that one teetering member be ex'd than an entire ward apostatize, or at least that's what Nephi would likely say.

You are right, RockSlider. The bigger threat is a reasonable, calm appearing consiglieri that knows his stuff, ward/stake listeners could easily verify for themselves with a few Google searches and clicks. He's not got horns. He's not frothing at the mouth.

Not from this but from other instances, I find it most telling that now the leaders don't ask what the exiting member has discovered that is discomfiting. Rather, they nod that silence that Gadianton talked about. Having been out now 34 years, I've seen quite a shift. Until about 2000, the leader or home teacher would ask for details. Then it began to change. Fewer and fewer would ask. Since 2008, not an LDS soul that has brought up to me my disaffection has asked why.


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 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:37 pm 
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Jesse Pinkman wrote:
I would simply explain to your friend that you have a busy work schedule, and you need to know specifically what it is that your Stake President would like to meet with you about. I would be blunt. Tell him that you have no interest in wasting your time and his if he is interested in, as Runtu said, "calling you to repentance".

Umm, . . . the meeting has already taken place.

But I'm sure consiglieri appreciates the retroactive advice. :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:53 am 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
Jesse Pinkman wrote:
I would simply explain to your friend that you have a busy work schedule, and you need to know specifically what it is that your Stake President would like to meet with you about. I would be blunt. Tell him that you have no interest in wasting your time and his if he is interested in, as Runtu said, "calling you to repentance".

Umm, . . . the meeting has already taken place.

But I'm sure consiglieri appreciates the retroactive advice. :-)


Sorry. Didn't notice the date.

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So you're chasing around a fly and in your world, I'm the idiot?

"Friends don't let friends be Mormon." Sock Puppet, MormonDiscussions.com.

Music is my drug of choice.

"And that is precisely why none of us apologize for holding it to the celestial standard it pretends that it possesses." Kerry, MormonDiscussions.com
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 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:26 am 
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Maybe covered but i could not get through all the replies- but the stake president is now or will shortly converse with your wife because she is behind all this- and i don't know why that is important or not important to you-do you???

you are hardly and apostate!

you could be the stake president counselling others!

i really don't know what at the core you want- can you summarize it in a couple of words for us.

thanx and the best!

k


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 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:08 am 
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Gadianton wrote:
Anyway, it's thoroughly refreshing to get such a detailed account illustrating how things really are. When the materials critical of the Church come up, you just see this ingrained cultural construct manifesting itself: we don't talk about these things. And there's an impenetrable aura of seriousness surrounding the mutual understanding of how certain things ought not to be discussed. I could imagine myself being there and left in a stupor of thought, not knowing how to get through that wall, even as an apostate for so many years. I can humorously imagine one of these straggling members that seem to come out of nowhere like zerinus, who truly doesn't get it, being at the meeting and objecting to your stake president: "We can read anything we want! Let's read that paper from Ritner right now. I'm not afraid of what it says!"

I got the sense your stake president is a good guy and just trapped in the culture like everyone else. I also think his level of belief ticked down just slightly, after your meeting. And I agree with others who said the material driving factor of the meeting was alleged apostasy by one or more persons who have listened to your podcast. If you ever would like a fake letter testifying that your podcast brought a member back into full fellowship, let me know and I'll write one.


Thanks for putting your finger on one of the interesting dynamics going on in the room.

The stake president read something I wrote about Adam-God. No questions about it.

I mention Ritner's article about "all the problems" with the Book of Abraham. No questions about it.

I mention John Welch helping me shepherd a paper through to publication in BYU-Studies over substantial opposition in the directorial board because of its "controversial nature." No questions about it.

Those aware of the issues in Mormonism but who will nevertheless remain TBM have to have mechanisms to avoid dealing with the issues.

One of those issues is just to not think about it; and God forbid talk about it.

They knew I knew. I suspect they knew. We are in a closed room with three people who know.

But they don't want to talk about it.

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You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)


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 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:14 pm 
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Your stake president is part of CES, right? So, it has to be an incredible mountain to climb for him to admit any weaknesses in the church. His paycheck literally depends on belief in the unbelievable. I frankly can sympathize with him. Nevertheless, it is still false as the day is long. Maybe this guy needs to get to know Grant Palmer?


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