It is currently Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:54 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 183 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:38 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:02 pm
Posts: 5989
Strengthening, Love, Friendship ... yes just

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MNANgFCYpk


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:15 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:47 pm
Posts: 5239
RockSlider wrote:
consiglieri wrote:
Just like Abinadi was under the authority and judgment of Noah, baby!


____, that means yes. I hate where this is going.


It worked out well for Abinadi, didn't it?


Oh, wait . . .

_________________
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:18 am 
God

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:01 am
Posts: 6668
consiglieri wrote:
It worked out well for Abinadi, didn't it?

Oh, wait . . .

I may have this exactly wrong, but I surmised that the biggest thing stopping you officially resigning from the Church was the fact your daughter was on a mission. That barrier has now been removed, does that change your thinking?

_________________
“A reliable way to make people believe in falsehoods is frequent repetition, because familiarity is not easily distinguished from truth. Authoritarian institutions and marketers have always known this fact.”
― Daniel Kahneman, Nobel Prize Winner, 'Thinking, Fast and Slow'


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:18 am 
Area Authority
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:40 pm
Posts: 605
Craig Paxton wrote:
Of course they have an agenda and it's disingenuous to state otherwise.


I disagree. I don't think he knows what the agenda is, yet, and that is the purpose of the meeting. The agenda will be dictated by the result of the meeting(s) --- tone and countenance, answers, explanations.

This had the feel of a "fact finding/listening tour" type meeting before, and still seems that way with the counselor's follow-up email. The stake president knows that you have podcasted critical and mocking things, but he doesn't know the extent, text or context, and he (presumably) hasn't met you at all. I think he wants to get to know you, observe your demeanor and tone, etc. and then have this factor into where he goes from there and what the next step(s) is/are. In other words, he doesn't yet know what he does or doesn't know, and he needs to know some things firsthand before he knows what he should do next.

I am and have been in his shoes, and it's different for every person and situation. Some people are going to require formal Church action, and some are not, but you don't know which is which without talking to them --- and of course, letting them have their say.

Could he have been more transparent about this as his agenda with you? Sure (I am, in my experience), but I think how the counselor worded it was not disingenuous and was accurate enough for it not to constitute hiding an agenda.

For what it's worth, I agree with [I have a question] that it would be better for the stake president himself to call you. I always make sensitive appointments myself without using a clerk or secretary (or counselor). I also am sensitive to the "power play dynamics" of "home field advantage" of the office, and ask where they would like to meet.

It doesn't seem to me from what I've seen here that this particular meeting will be tense or awkward. I think the stake president wants to make you feel comfortable. He's not going to get to hear what he wants/needs to if there is an adversarial climate from the get-go.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:19 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:47 pm
Posts: 5239
Craig Paxton wrote:
Sorry...but you asked for opinions and I'm calling bull ____ on this claim of no agenda. Of course they have an agenda and its disingenuous to state otherwise. I would fine tune your antenna and be prepared to sense any violation of your personally set boundaries...and if you sense that the stake president is over stepping what you feel is appropriate and comfortable...then push back...and restate that what he is asking or probing is none of his business. These men feel they have the right to ask any question, delve and probe into any detail of your personal life and it is up to you to protect your boundaries. Every question he asks has an ulterior motive behind the question...but I'm sure you know all of this already


I do know this, Craig, but it is always good to have it reinforced from somebody else.

I just talked to a lawyer friend of mine who is married to the daughter of the stake executive secretary.

He says the stake president is a CES director and church is his whole life. (What else would I expect in a stake president?)

On the other hand, he says the stake president is really not confrontational and is not the type to do an inquisition or get red in the face or anything; he is really a pretty nice guy; though he does talk very much in "church speak."

My friend doesn't think the stake president will have an agenda to do much of anything--unless he has received direction from above.

_________________
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:31 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:02 pm
Posts: 5989
moinmoin wrote:
...
The stake president knows that you have podcasted critical and mocking things, but he doesn't know the extent, text or context, and he (presumably) hasn't met you at all.
...


Odds are he was presented with a folder of all the "extent, text or context" needed to instigate this meeting in the first place.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:31 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:49 am
Posts: 7465
Location: Somewhere between bemused and curious.
moinmoin wrote:
Craig Paxton wrote:
Of course they have an agenda and it's disingenuous to state otherwise.


I disagree. I don't think he knows what the agenda is, yet, and that is the purpose of the meeting. The agenda will be dictated by the result of the meeting(s) --- tone and countenance, answers, explanations.

This had the feel of a "fact finding/listening tour" type meeting before, and still seems that way with the counselor's follow-up email. The stake president knows that you have podcasted critical and mocking things, but he doesn't know the extent, text or context, and he (presumably) hasn't met you at all. I think he wants to get to know you, observe your demeanor and tone, etc. and then have this factor into where he goes from there and what the next step(s) is/are. In other words, he doesn't yet know what he does or doesn't know, and he needs to know some things firsthand before he knows what he should do next.

I am and have been in his shoes, and it's different for every person and situation. Some people are going to require formal Church action, and some are not, but you don't know which is which without talking to them --- and of course, letting them have their say.

Could he have been more transparent about this as his agenda with you? Sure (I am, in my experience), but I think how the counselor worded it was not disingenuous and was accurate enough for it not to constitute hiding an agenda.

For what it's worth, I agree with [I have a question] that it would be better for the stake president himself to call you. I always make sensitive appointments myself without using a clerk or secretary (or counselor). I also am sensitive to the "power play dynamics" of "home field advantage" of the office, and ask where they would like to meet.

It doesn't seem to me from what I've seen here that this particular meeting will be tense or awkward. I think the stake president wants to make you feel comfortable. He's not going to get to hear what he wants/needs to if there is an adversarial climate from the get-go.


The road to hell excommunication is paved with good intentions.

There is a reason that church courts have the nick name "Courts of Love". Leadership really believes that what they are doing is in the best interest of the person being tried. That very well may be at odds with what the person himself believes and wants. Justifying those actions by claiming to know God's will is question begging of the first degree when it comes to disputes about the validity of that authority itself.

Additionally leadership roulette is always in play. With a new stake president or bishop one has no idea what will be tolerated or won't.

_________________
"The lives we lead now are not dress rehearsals, they are the only performance we have. Therefore what matters is what we have here, the people we know and and love and the good we can do for the world"
Sean Carroll


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:39 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:28 pm
Posts: 1847
consiglieri wrote:
Craig Paxton wrote:
Sorry...but you asked for opinions and I'm calling bull ____ on this claim of no agenda. Of course they have an agenda and its disingenuous to state otherwise. I would fine tune your antenna and be prepared to sense any violation of your personally set boundaries...and if you sense that the stake president is over stepping what you feel is appropriate and comfortable...then push back...and restate that what he is asking or probing is none of his business. These men feel they have the right to ask any question, delve and probe into any detail of your personal life and it is up to you to protect your boundaries. Every question he asks has an ulterior motive behind the question...but I'm sure you know all of this already


I do know this, Craig, but it is always good to have it reinforced from somebody else.

I just talked to a lawyer friend of mine who is married to the daughter of the stake executive secretary.

He says the stake president is a CES director and church is his whole life. (What else would I expect in a stake president?)

On the other hand, he says the stake president is really not confrontational and is not the type to do an inquisition or get red in the face or anything; he is really a pretty nice guy; though he does talk very much in "church speak."

My friend doesn't think the stake president will have an agenda to do much of anything--unless he has received direction from above.


No agenda right?


Image

_________________
"...The official doctrine of the LDS Church is a Global Flood" - BCSpace

"...What many people call sin is not sin." - Joseph Smith

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" - Phillip K. Dick


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:44 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:27 pm
Posts: 1081
consiglieri wrote:
RockSlider wrote:
____, that means yes. I hate where this is going.


It worked out well for Abinadi, didn't it?


Oh, wait . . .

Trick question. Abinadi didn't exist. You do.

_________________
Trimble, you ignorant sack of rhinoceros puss. The only thing more obvious than your lack of education is the foul stench that surrounds you.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:47 am 
God

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:01 am
Posts: 6668
If you wouldn’t request he meets with you in a bar, out of consideration for his discomfort, then you should insist on meeting somewhere you feel comfortable. If he insists on the status of meeting in his office you are already playing the child to his parent.

Invite him to dinner at a restaurant, the venue will curtail any pomposity or preachiness.

_________________
“A reliable way to make people believe in falsehoods is frequent repetition, because familiarity is not easily distinguished from truth. Authoritarian institutions and marketers have always known this fact.”
― Daniel Kahneman, Nobel Prize Winner, 'Thinking, Fast and Slow'


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:22 pm 
Area Authority
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:40 pm
Posts: 605
RockSlider wrote:
Odds are he was presented with a folder of all the "extent, text or context" needed to instigate this meeting in the first place.


I doubt it. Much more likely word of mouth from his podcast, edgy SS lessons around the time he stopped attending, etc. In other words, upset or concerned stake members.

I wouldn't rule out top-down orders in general for high-profile cases, but I don't think it's likely in his case.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:29 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:02 pm
Posts: 5989
moinmoin,

Does it not embarrass you that the Church even has the history of the SCMC, and hence one must always wonder if a new local leader is being influenced to investigate certain members?

You do acknowledge the existence and activity this committee right?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:26 pm 
Area Authority
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:40 pm
Posts: 605
RockSlider wrote:
You do acknowledge the existence and activity this committee right?


Of course. I don't think that it is as nefarious as apostates think it is. I do think that Salt Lake sometimes provides leaders information on some of its members.

Quote:
Does it not embarrass you that the Church even has the history of the SCMC, and hence one must always wonder if a new local leader is being influenced to investigate certain members?


My embarrassment would depend on the details. I am not embarrassed by anything that I know of on good authority. Of course, there are a lot of innuendo and claims.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:57 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:02 pm
Posts: 5989
moinmoin wrote:
My embarrassment would depend on the details. I am not embarrassed by anything that I know of on good authority. Of course, there are a lot of innuendo and claims.

How about the many lives deeply uprooted by this example alone?

http://www.mormonstories.org/christine- ... m-jeppsen/

It should be embarrassing that the Church continues to lie that it does not influence local leaders.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:52 pm 
Area Authority
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:40 pm
Posts: 605
RockSlider wrote:
How about the many lives deeply uprooted by this example alone?

http://www.mormonstories.org/christine- ... m-jeppsen/

It should be embarrassing that the Church continues to lie that it does not influence local leaders.


Thanks for that. I had wondered about why, exactly, Gileadi was excommunicated, because I couldn't find anything in his writings that would warrant it (extant writings, I guess). When I had asked about it on Mormon Dialogue & Discussion Board, the thread was shut down in a hurry (without thread drama that would warrant it). From what I could gather there, and your link, it appears that it was a dogged vendetta from a specific seventy. Your link did make reference to the "folder from the correlation committee", which refers to the SMC.

I agree that the Church should simply not be evasive about certain things (e.g.,"no tithing money," whether or not local discipline is influenced by Salt Lake, etc.). I'm not embarrassed by it, though. What is embarrassing to me are Orwellian euphemisms like "strengthening the members committee" or "court of love." In fairness, while I'm aware of "court of love's" existence as a term, it seems like this was very short-lived. I've only ever heard (and referred to it myself) as a church court or disciplinary council.

On principle, I think it's a good thing that Salt Lake informs local leaders of things (including documentation) they might not be aware of, particularly when it comes to apostate behavior, and especially when the vocal apostates seek to remain under the radar as a member in good standing. I think that many local leaders would otherwise be unaware of things they should be aware of if that weren't the case.

I have no personal experience with any influence from Salt Lake at all when it comes to initiating disciplinary action. Disagreement with Salt Lake on lifting of discipline is another story.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:59 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:02 pm
Posts: 5989
moinmoin,

Thank you for a very reasonable reply.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:16 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:47 pm
Posts: 5239
I went to the movies last night and watched "IT."

It was inspiring.

I figure if a bunch of loser kids can go down the sewers in Derry to confront Pennywise the Dancing Clown, I can manage to go in to see my freaking stake president.

Image

_________________
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:24 pm 
Area Authority
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:40 pm
Posts: 605
RockSlider wrote:
moinmoin,

Thank you for a very reasonable reply.

Not a problem. Thank you!

I find an image/experience from my mission to be applicable to all kinds of situations, whether it be the Church, my school district, BYU, or whatever.

In a train station in Germany late at night, two men were pushing around a drunk man. A woman came up to them and scolded them. "Der ist ein Mensch, genau wie Sie!" she said (He's a person, just like you). At that exact moment, a dark, wet stain spread over the front part of his pants (he had wet himself). The woman looked at him, and walked away.

I've stopped trying to defend the indefensible. If a thing has value or intrinsic worth, that will carry the day in spite of and in the face of "pants wetting." For me, this can include unforced errors or policy/bureaucratic blunders on the part of the Church. Sometimes life can feel that way.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:15 pm 
First Presidency

Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:51 pm
Posts: 810
I noticed your 2nd counselor friend quoted from Joseph Smith's letter to Nancy Rigdon. :biggrin:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:02 pm 
Charlatan
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:04 pm
Posts: 3144
Fence Sitter wrote:
Because some of us, like Consig and myself, have immediate family still fully invested in the church. I do not accept any claim the church has as an authority over myself any more than I accept claims by other religions than I am going to hell because I am a Mormon. They are both meaningless. With how some of my family feels about the church, why should I resign a membership that is meaningless to me while at the same time important to them?

Oh and I also think you are conflating how Consiglieri feels about the Salt Lake City based businesslike organization calling itself a church with how he feels about Mormonism itself. The majority of his issues are with the former, while he still admires and is very interested about the latter.

So do I...but there is life after Mormonism if you take control...I know it can take time, and I know we are all different...but I would say to consig, what someone told me 24 years ago when I was struggling...on sunday...take your shirt off, mow the lawn and drink a beer...meaning let go.

_________________
Faith is the only way we're going to make it. None of us are smart enough to do it on our own.
Merle Haggard


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stake President Wants to Talk with Me
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:28 pm 
θεά
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:06 pm
Posts: 3978
Location: Mount Prospect, IL
consiglieri wrote:
The divorce I am going through makes that problematic at present.

Should I be saying "I'm sorry" or "congratulations"?

consiglieri wrote:
Image


But . . . but . . .

Image

_________________
My Blogs: Weighted Glory | Worlds Without End: A Mormon Studies Roundtable | Twitter


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 183 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 15 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Revival Theme By Brandon Designs By B.Design-Studio © 2007-2008 Brandon
Revival Theme Based off SubLite By Echo © 2007-2008 Echo
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group