Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

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_Shulem
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _Shulem »

Shulem wrote:
ClarkGoble wrote:Widstoe, Roberts and Talmage.


Those men were intelligent and well informed. Most assuredly they had serious questions and reservations on how to interpret the obvious differences between the JosephSmithism Exlplanations of the Facsimiles and conventional Egyptology -- the standards had in the finest universities on the planet. The brethren certainly must have had questions brewing in their minds.

My question for you, Clark, is rather simple. Take into consideration everything you know about the saga of the Book of Abraham and suppose you could step into a time machine and go back to Nauvoo when the Times & Seasons first published the Book of Abraham. Suppose you could go back in time and meet Joseph Smith. What question(s) would you have for him regarding the Explanation of Fig. 2. in Facsimile No. 3?



Regrettably, Clark Goble never answered the questions. Perhaps he thought they were rhetorical?
_Shulem
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _Shulem »

Philo Sofee wrote:Yes, I am still here. We have had a massive couple of days at work, so I come home pretty darn exhausted. I shall be able to continue here in a few days. We are in crunch time because of the eclipse coming.


No problem. Man, this thread is long. I decided to copy and revise (edit) material I posted in this thread that pertain strictly to the "Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph" content and repost them in one long post. When ever I get around to it.

The part about the Facsimiles No. 2 & 3 are sidetracking the thread somewhat but were a necessary evil in my view.
_Philo Sofee
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Shulem wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:Yes, I am still here. We have had a massive couple of days at work, so I come home pretty darn exhausted. I shall be able to continue here in a few days. We are in crunch time because of the eclipse coming.


No problem. Man, this thread is long. I decided to copy and revise (edit) material I posted in this thread that pertain strictly to the "Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph" content and repost them in one long post. When ever I get around to it.

The part about the Facsimiles No. 2 & 3 are sidetracking the thread somewhat but were a necessary evil in my view.


Everything about the Egyptological aspects of the Book of Abraham is a necessary evil..... :wink:

This thread is long, but I think the audience enjoyed it thoroughly. We did a bang up job, you doing the heavy lifting in this one. I tip the hat to ye amigo... I'm glad my article provided the anchor for which you had to discourse and elaborate more significant materials.
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
_Shulem
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _Shulem »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Everything about the Egyptological aspects of the Book of Abraham is a necessary evil..... :wink:

This thread is long, but I think the audience enjoyed it thoroughly. We did a bang up job, you doing the heavy lifting in this one. I tip the hat to ye amigo... I'm glad my article provided the anchor for which you had to discourse and elaborate more significant materials.


I've been preaching for some 25 years that the missing scroll theory is DOA and has been disproved leaving the church with only one viable option to pursue -- Catalyst Theory. That is what is coming down the pike and it's going to prove a little bit of a challenge to ward off all the apologetic barrage that is coming our way. They will fully espouse my old ideas which embraced representationalism.

This thread you made is incredibly important. I don't know that you fully realize this, Philo. It is the very foundation upon which apologetics has to try and escape. But what we have to do is decapitate Joseph Smith and his companions in regards to what they said about the papyrus and mummies. That is really where the fight lies. Destroying the Facsimiles is easy stuff but the apologetic arguments that are coming will defend them using the Catalyst Theory along with all kinds of bells and whistles to go with it. But I tell you right now, I can destroy the Catalyst Theory and cut Joseph Smith down right at the start. The Literal Autograph argument is key!! It really is.
_sock puppet
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _sock puppet »

Shulem wrote:
ClarkGoble wrote:Widstoe, Roberts and Talmage.


Those men were intelligent and well informed. Most assuredly they had serious questions and reservations on how to interpret the obvious differences between the JosephSmithism Exlplanations of the Facsimiles and conventional Egyptology -- the standards had in the finest universities on the planet. The brethren certainly must have had questions brewing in their minds.

My question for you, Clark, is rather simple. Take into consideration everything you know about the saga of the Book of Abraham and suppose you could step into a time machine and go back to Nauvoo when the Times & Seasons first published the Book of Abraham. Suppose you could go back in time and meet Joseph Smith. What question(s) would you have for him regarding the Explanation of Fig. 2. in Facsimile No. 3?


Shulem wrote:Regrettably, Clark Goble never answered the questions. Perhaps he thought they were rhetorical?

Maybe he wised up like other TBMs whose faith was about to die on the BoAbr hill, and disengaged from the issue permanently.
_Shulem
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _Shulem »

sock puppet wrote:Maybe he wised up like other TBMs whose faith was about to die on the BoAbr hill, and disengaged from the issue permanently.


You know as well as I do that the Book of Abraham is the testimony nuke.

It is proven that Joseph Smith and his associates claimed to have original documents that were hand made by Abraham and Joseph and that the mummies were royal, to include a king -- and all this with the blessings and feelings of the so-called Holy Ghost being poured out to confirm these things were so.

So much for Mormonism. It was caught with its pants down. The whole religion is one big lie. What a waste. Paying 10% to that church and doing whatever they tell you to do like a mindless wound up toy soldier.

It gave me great satisfaction to throw that church in the trash can where it belongs. It's utter garbage.
_Shulem
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Before Kirtland Ohio — Valuable references

Post by _Shulem »

***VALUABLE REFERENCES***

Prior to the Egyptian exhibit arriving in Kirtland Ohio, there were rumors that the mummies and curiosities may have been as old as Moses — causing unusual excitement about the possibilities of what these curiosities entail and questions pertaining to their origins. This is the kind of fanfare that was being heralded before the Mormons purchased the exhibit to stake their own claims. The following references set the tone for what was coming to Kirtland Ohio:

Philadelphia U.S. Gazette April 1833 wrote:“The Largest collection of EGYPTIAN MUMMIES ever exhibited in this city, is now to be seen at the Masonic Hall, in the Chestnut Street above Seventh.

They were found in the vicinity of Thebes, by the celebrated traveler Antonio Lebolo and Chevalier Drovetti, General Consul of France in Egypt.

Some writings on Papyrus found with the Mummies, can also be seen, and will afford, no doubt, much satisfaction to Amateurs of Antiquities. ... We must ask attention to the exhibition of Mummies at the Masonic Hall. These old folks who flourished perhaps when Moses and Aaron were little boys, deserve some public attention. The rolls of papyrus, the hieroglyphics, the wrappers and other appliances are all exceedingly interesting”


Atkinson's Saturday Evening Post April 1833 wrote:“We must ask attention to the exhibition of Mummies at the Masonic Hall. These old folks who flourished perhaps when Moses and Aaron were little boys, deserve public attention. The rolls of papyrus, the hieroglyphics, the wrappers, and other appliances, are all exceedingly interesting.”


Philadelphia Saturday Courier April 1833 wrote:“The ten Egyptian Mummies now exhibited at the Masonic Hall, have been inspected by several gentleman competent to judge them; and are pronounced to be genuine specimens of the relics of those who, ‘walked about in Thebes’ streets three thousand years ago.”


Image

Prior to the Egyptian exhibit arriving in Kirtland Ohio, there were rumors that the mummies and curiosities may have been as old as Moses — causing unusual excitement about the possibilities of what these curiosities entail and questions pertaining to their origins. This is the kind of fanfare that was being heralded before the Mormons purchased the exhibit to stake their own claims. The following references set the tone for what was coming to Kirtland Ohio:

Philadelphia U.S. Gazette April 1833

“The Largest collection of EGYPTIAN MUMMIES ever exhibited in this city, is now to be seen at the Masonic Hall, in the Chestnut Street above Seventh.

They were found in the vicinity of Thebes, by the celebrated traveler Antonio Lebolo and Chevalier Drovetti, General Consul of France in Egypt.

Some writings on Papyrus found with the Mummies, can also be seen, and will afford, no doubt, much satisfaction to Amateurs of Antiquities. ... We must ask attention to the exhibition of Mummies at the Masonic Hall. These old folks who flourished perhaps when Moses and Aaron were little boys, deserve some public attention. The rolls of papyrus, the hieroglyphics, the wrappers and other appliances are all exceedingly interesting”

Atkinson's Saturday Evening Post April 1833

“We must ask attention to the exhibition of Mummies at the Masonic Hall. These old folks who flourished perhaps when Moses and Aaron were little boys, deserve public attention. The rolls of papyrus, the hieroglyphics, the wrappers, and other appliances, are all exceedingly interesting.”

Philadelphia Saturday Courier April 1833

“The ten Egyptian Mummies now exhibited at the Masonic Hall, have been inspected by several gentleman competent to judge them; and are pronounced to be genuine specimens of the relics of those who, ‘walked about in Thebes’ streets three thousand years ago.”

Image
_Shulem
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Valuable References — friendly nonmember eyewitness accounts

Post by _Shulem »

***VALUABLE REFERENCES***

Let’s consider some friendly non-member eyewitness testimonies from those who examined the Mormon Egyptian exhibit first hand having direct contact with President Joseph Smith and his closest associates. First, an article testified of the prophet’s contemplation of possible royal connections with the mummies. A reporter for the Quincy Whig newspaper toured the Egyptian exhibit and personally interviewed President Smith. We learn that the Mormons asserted that the mummies were royal ― perhaps as far back as Moses himself and the autograph or signature of Abraham is written on the papyrus:

Quincy Whig newspaper October 17th, 1840 wrote:“After he had shown us the fine grounds around the dwelling, he conducted us, at our request, to an upper room, where he drew aside the curtains of a case, and showed us several Egyptian Mummies, which we were told that the church had purchased, at his suggestion, some time before, for a large sum of money.‘The embalmed body that stands near the center of the case’, said he, ‘is one of the Pharaohs, who sat on the throne of Egypt, and the female figure by it was probably one of the daughters.’‘It may have been Princess Thermutis,’ I replied, ‘the same that rescued Moses from the water of the Nile.’‘It is not improbable,’ answered the Prophet, ‘but time has not yet allowed fully to examine and decide that point.’ ‘Do you understand the Hebrew language,’ said he, raising his hand to the top of the case, and taking down a small Hebrew grammar of Rabbi Seixis. ‘That language has not altogether escaped my attention,’ was the reply. He then walked to a secretary, on the opposite side of the room, and drew out several frames, covered with glass, under which were numerous fragments of Egyptian papyrus, on which, as usual, a great variety of hieroglyphical characters had been imprinted. ‘These ancient records,’ said he, ‘throw great light on the subject of Christianity. They have been unrolled and preserved with great labor and care. My time has been hitherto too much taken up to translate the whole of them, but I will show you how I interpret certain parts. There,’ said he, pointing to a particular character, ‘that is the signature of the patriarch Abraham.’ ‘It is indeed a most interesting autograph,’ I replied, ‘and doubtless the only one extant. What an ornament it would be to have these ancient manuscripts handsomely set, in appropriate frames, and hung up around the walls of the temple which you are about to erect at this place.’ ‘Yes’, replied the Prophet, ‘and the translation hung up with them’.”

(The Saga of the Book of Abraham; Jay M. Todd, p. 210,211)


1. The prophet uncovered the mummies and manuscripts in a special room where the ancient relics were kept. He specifically identified one of the mummies as king of Egypt and suggested that another mummy may have been the king’s daughter.

2. The prophet considered that one of the mummies may have been a princess who rescued Moses from the Nile but he wouldn’t commit to that conclusion. He removed a book of Hebrew grammar from the top of a case and showed it to the reporter.

3. The prophet and his personal secretary drew out several picture frames that encased a variety of papyrus fragments and associated them with Christianity. He noted that the records had been carefully unrolled and secured in a state of preservation. Not all of the fragments were placed in frames but some remained in a loose state. He admitted it would be nice to have the manuscripts handsomely set in appropriate frames and hung up in the temple.

4. The prophet said he had not yet translated all of the papyri on display. He diligently pointed to the signature of Abraham and attested that it was an actual autograph. Joseph Smith had determined that one of the mummies was a king of Egypt and he was anxious to translate all of the records. The notion that Christian symbolism was expressed in the papyrus agrees with statements made by elder Oliver Cowdery in the church periodical, MESSENGER AND ADVOCATE. Official statements made by Cowdery describe vignettes from fragments that were returned to the church in 1967. Those descriptions given by Cowdery match images found on the fragments.

Charlotte Haven wrote:“She (mother Smith) is a motherly kind of woman of about 60 years. She receives a little pittance by exhibiting the Mummies to strangers. When we asked to see them, she lit a candle and conducted us up a short, narrow stairway to a low, dark room under the roof. On one side were standing half a dozen mummies, to whom she introduced us, King Onitus and his royal household, ― one she did not know. Then she took up what seemed to be a club wrapped in a dark cloth, and said, ‘This is the leg of Pharaoh’s daughter, the one who saved Moses.’ Repressing a smile, I looked from the mummies to the old lady, but could detect nothing but earnestness, and sincerity on her countenance. Then she turned to a long table, set her candle-stick down, and opened a long roll of manuscript, saying it was ‘the writing of Abraham and Isaac, written in Hebrew and Sanskrit,’ and she read several minutes from it as if it was English. It sounded very much like passages from the Old Testament ― and it might have been from anything we know― but she said she read it through the inspiration of her son Joseph, in whom she seemed to have perfect confidence.”

(The Saga of the Book of Abraham; Jay M. Todd, p.245)


Nonmember Charlotte Haven had the opportunity to see the Egyptian antiquities firsthand with the prophet’s mother. Charlotte retells this experience in a letter she wrote to her own mother in 1843. Judging from the contents of the whole letter we may determine that to the best of her knowledge Charlotte gave an honest and accurate account. It was for the most part a courteous report of her visit to Nauvoo.

1. Charlotte gave a kind description of mother Smith. Her report is evidence that mother Smith believed some fantastic things about the Mormon papyrus and she listened attentively to the claims.

2. Charlotte notes that there were half a dozen mummies although this may have accounted for mummy cases as well ― there were only 4 mummies in the collection that were purchased by the church. Half a dozen may be used in general terms to signify a handful. Mother Smith explained that the mummies were a royal family and one of them was king Onitus (similar to Onitah mentioned in the Book of Abraham) a king of Egypt.

3. Charlotte then tells how mother Smith picked up a mummy leg which understandably looked like a club. It was heralded as the very leg of the princess that saved Moses from the Nile. At this juncture, Charlotte notes that mother Smith was smiling, was earnest in revealing her knowledge, and had a sincere countenance; these are not the traits of someone making up lies or playing a joke. Mother Smith seem to believe what she was saying was true.

4. Mother Smith claimed to have a long roll written in the writing of Abraham and Isaac but notes that the writing is in Hebrew and Sanskrit. Perhaps she thought Sanskrit was a form of Egyptian and there may have been Hebrew notations inserted by Joseph during a translation process of some form or another. Some Arabic writing is found in the Kirtland Egyptian Papers.

5. Mother Smith clearly believed she had the ability to interpret the foreign language and it in one form or another converted it into what seemed like Biblical passages, undoubtedly much to Charlotte’s amazement. Charlotte had to be wondering if it was a hoax of some sort but she firmly notes that mother Smith was confident in her ability because she learned those things from her son, Joseph.

6. The bottom line: A friendly witness states the Smith family claimed one of the mummies was a king of Egypt. There is no reason to suppose Charlotte made this stuff up and lied to her own mother.

Josiah Quincy, Figures of the Past, p. 385; Nauvoo, May 1844 wrote:“And now come with me, ‘said the prophet and I will show you the curiosities.’ So saying, he led the way to a lower room, where sat a venerable and respectable-looking lady. ‘This is my mother, gentleman. The curiosities we shall see belong to her. They were purchased with her money, at a cost of 6,000 dollars’, and then, with deep feeling, were added the words, ‘And that woman was turned out upon the prairie in dead of night by a mob.’ There was some pine presses fixed against the wall of the room. These receptacles Smith opened, and disclosed four human bodies, shrunken and black with age. ‘These are mummies,’ said the exhibitor. ‘I want you to look at that little runt of a fellow over there. He was a great man in his day. Why, that was Pharaoh Necho, King of Egypt’! Some parchments inscribed with hieroglyphics were then offered us. They were preserved under glass and handled with great respect. ‘That is the handwriting of Abraham, the Father of the Faithful,’ said the prophet, ‘This is the autograph of Moses, and these lines were written by his brother Aaron. Here we have the earliest account of the Creation, from which Moses composed the First Book of Genesis.’ The parchment last referred to showed a rude drawing of a man and woman, and a serpent walking on a pair of legs. I ventured to doubt the propriety of providing the reptile in question with this unusual means of locomotion, ‘Why, that’s as plain as pikestaff,’ was the rejoinder. ‘Before the Fall snakes always went about on legs, just like chickens. They were deprived of them, in punishment of their agency in the ruin of man.’ We were further assured that the prophet was the only mortal who could translate these mysterious writings, and that his power was given by direct revelation.”

(The Saga of the Book of Abraham; Jay M. Todd, p.256)


Josiah Quincy visited Nauvoo in May of 1844. This was about a year after Charlotte Havens encounter. His tour of the Egyptian curiosities was given personally by the prophet. Mr. Quincy records his experience in his journal which was later published in 1883.

1. Josiah Quincy appears to be giving an honest report of what he saw and heard. There is no reason to doubt his report.

2. Apparently mother Smith purchased the curiosities for a larger sum then originally purchased from the original owner. Josiah probably reported the wrong sum (6,000) or mother Smith secured a deal to purchase them for herself and appraised them at a higher value. This discrepancy however is a moot point.

3. Mr. Quincy had a personal conversation with the prophet who claimed one of the mummies was a king of Egypt. It’s curious that Joseph Smith identified the royal mummy with the Pharaoh who killed righteous king Josiah in the Bible by an archer during a skirmish. This Biblical event occurred some 600 years before Christ. There is nothing to indicate that a 600 year old royal mummy was part of the collection. The idea of unearthing a pharaoh from the tombs of Egypt without major fanfare and evidence of royal status is inconceivable.

4. Now we are introduced with the claim that Moses and Aaron wrote on the record. Moses’ own signature was supposedly contained on the papyrus.

5. Snakes once walked on legs. The record has a vignette of a snake walking on legs. Interestingly enough the fragments recovered by the church in 1967 contain a snake walking on legs. But, that shouldn’t surprise us considering the papyrus now extant is loaded with images showing it was indeed the papyrus mentioned by Joseph Smith and others.

6. The prophet translated by direct revelation.

Josiah Quincy wrote:“On Mr. Quincy’s return to Joe’s house (which was the hotel or public house), he said they would perhaps like to see his curiosities, on their assenting, he took them down to his cellar, where there were several common pine presses, he opened these and to their astonishment they saw several black corpses. ‘That one’, said Joe, ‘is the body of Pharaoh Necho’. Joe it seems had the imported four mummies and having taken off the wrappers, had stood them upright in these presses. He then opened the little boxes which are always found about a mummy and took out some papyrus. ‘This,’ said he ‘is the handwriting of Abraham, that one is Moses,’ and so on. ‘These are hieroglyphics, nobody can read them but myself. I can read all the writing and all the hieroglyphics’ ― Mr. Quincy pointed to one of them which had a representation of a man, a woman, a tree, and a non-descript animal. ‘That,’ said Joe ‘is the creation of the World. There is Adam, Eve, the Tree of Knowledge, and a serpent’ ― Mr. Quincy asked him how it could be a serpent as it had legs. Joe answered, ‘Oh, you know that serpents originally had legs like chickens, but afterwards God said ‘Upon the belly shalt thou crawl’ and so he lost his legs. Mr. Quincy spoke of Joe having an extraordinary acquaintance with the Bible and hat he was very ready in reply, and clever in supporting his notions by quotations and reasoning. After the exhibition was closed Joe said, ‘Persons who see my curiosities usually give my mother a quarter of a dollar.’ This mother of his was a fine venerable looking lady.”

(The Saga of the Book of Abraham; Jay M. Todd, p.257)


Josiah Quincy relayed his experience with the Egyptian artifacts to a friend named Henry Halkett. This information was passed on about a year after Quincy’s visit to Nauvoo. In 1845 Henry Halkett wrote down what he had heard from his friend.

1. Here we have another account that the prophet claimed one of the mummies was a king of Egypt.

2. Talk of the creation of the world is again mentioned to include the handwriting of Abraham and Moses. It’s not just the story of Abraham or a copy of a copy. It’s the very handwriting (diary account) of Abraham telling his story.

3. As might be expected, snakes walking like chickens are thoroughly explained. Had that information been left out the statement would have less impact and prove disappointing.

Reverend Henry Caswall wrote:“She then directed me up a steep flight of stairs into a chamber, and slowly crept up after me. She shewed me a wretched cabinet, in which were four naked mummies frightfully disfigured, and in fact, most disgusting relics of mortality. One she said was a king of Egypt whom she named, two were his wives, and the remaining one was the daughter of another king. I asked her by what means she had become acquainted with the names and histories of these mummies. She replied, that her son had informed her, and that he had obtained this knowledge through the mighty power of God.”

(City of the Mormons; 1843)


Reverend Henry Caswall visited the city of Nauvoo in 1842 soon after the Book of Abraham was published in the Times & Seasons. He was privileged to examine the Egyptian curiosities owned by the church. Mr. Caswall returned to England and wrote a book about his experience in Nauvoo.


Image

Let’s consider some friendly non-member eyewitness testimonies from those who examined the Mormon Egyptian exhibit first hand having direct contact with President Joseph Smith and his closest associates. First, an article testified of the prophet’s contemplation of possible royal connections with the mummies. A reporter for the Quincy Whig newspaper toured the Egyptian exhibit and personally interviewed President Smith. We learn that the Mormons asserted that the mummies were royal ― perhaps as far back as Moses himself and the autograph or signature of Abraham is written on the papyrus:

Quincy Whig newspaper October 17th, 1840 wrote:

“After he had shown us the fine grounds around the dwelling, he conducted us, at our request, to an upper room, where he drew aside the curtains of a case, and showed us several Egyptian Mummies, which we were told that the church had purchased, at his suggestion, some time before, for a large sum of money.‘The embalmed body that stands near the center of the case’, said he, ‘is one of the Pharaohs, who sat on the throne of Egypt, and the female figure by it was probably one of the daughters.’‘It may have been Princess Thermutis,’ I replied, ‘the same that rescued Moses from the water of the Nile.’‘It is not improbable,’ answered the Prophet, ‘but time has not yet allowed fully to examine and decide that point.’ ‘Do you understand the Hebrew language,’ said he, raising his hand to the top of the case, and taking down a small Hebrew grammar of Rabbi Seixis. ‘That language has not altogether escaped my attention,’ was the reply. He then walked to a secretary, on the opposite side of the room, and drew out several frames, covered with glass, under which were numerous fragments of Egyptian papyrus, on which, as usual, a great variety of hieroglyphical characters had been imprinted. ‘These ancient records,’ said he, ‘throw great light on the subject of Christianity. They have been unrolled and preserved with great labor and care. My time has been hitherto too much taken up to translate the whole of them, but I will show you how I interpret certain parts. There,’ said he, pointing to a particular character, ‘that is the signature of the patriarch Abraham.’ ‘It is indeed a most interesting autograph,’ I replied, ‘and doubtless the only one extant. What an ornament it would be to have these ancient manuscripts handsomely set, in appropriate frames, and hung up around the walls of the temple which you are about to erect at this place.’ ‘Yes’, replied the Prophet, ‘and the translation hung up with them’.” (The Saga of the Book of Abraham; Jay M. Todd, p. 210,211)

1. The prophet uncovered the mummies and manuscripts in a special room where the ancient relics were kept. He specifically identified one of the mummies as king of Egypt and suggested that another mummy may have been the king’s daughter.

2. The prophet considered that one of the mummies may have been a princess who rescued Moses from the Nile but he wouldn’t commit to that conclusion. He removed a book of Hebrew grammar from the top of a case and showed it to the reporter.

3. The prophet and his personal secretary drew out several picture frames that encased a variety of papyrus fragments and associated them with Christianity. He noted that the records had been carefully unrolled and secured in a state of preservation. Not all of the fragments were placed in frames but some remained in a loose state. He admitted it would be nice to have the manuscripts handsomely set in appropriate frames and hung up in the temple.

4. The prophet said he had not yet translated all of the papyri on display. He diligently pointed to the signature of Abraham and attested that it was an actual autograph. Joseph Smith had determined that one of the mummies was a king of Egypt and he was anxious to translate all of the records. The notion that Christian symbolism was expressed in the papyrus agrees with statements made by elder Oliver Cowdery in the church periodical, MESSENGER AND ADVOCATE. Official statements made by Cowdery describe vignettes from fragments that were returned to the church in 1967. Those descriptions given by Cowdery match images found on the fragments.

Charlotte Haven wrote:

“She (mother Smith) is a motherly kind of woman of about 60 years. She receives a little pittance by exhibiting the Mummies to strangers. When we asked to see them, she lit a candle and conducted us up a short, narrow stairway to a low, dark room under the roof. On one side were standing half a dozen mummies, to whom she introduced us, King Onitus and his royal household, ― one she did not know. Then she took up what seemed to be a club wrapped in a dark cloth, and said, ‘This is the leg of Pharaoh’s daughter, the one who saved Moses.’ Repressing a smile, I looked from the mummies to the old lady, but could detect nothing but earnestness, and sincerity on her countenance. Then she turned to a long table, set her candle-stick down, and opened a long roll of manuscript, saying it was ‘the writing of Abraham and Isaac, written in Hebrew and Sanskrit,’ and she read several minutes from it as if it was English. It sounded very much like passages from the Old Testament ― and it might have been from anything we know― but she said she read it through the inspiration of her son Joseph, in whom she seemed to have perfect confidence.” (The Saga of the Book of Abraham; Jay M. Todd, p.245)

Nonmember Charlotte Haven had the opportunity to see the Egyptian antiquities firsthand with the prophet’s mother. Charlotte retells this experience in a letter she wrote to her own mother in 1843. Judging from the contents of the whole letter we may determine that to the best of her knowledge Charlotte gave an honest and accurate account. It was for the most part a courteous report of her visit to Nauvoo.

1. Charlotte gave a kind description of mother Smith. Her report is evidence that mother Smith believed some fantastic things about the Mormon papyrus and she listened attentively to the claims.

2. Charlotte notes that there were half a dozen mummies although this may have accounted for mummy cases as well ― there were only 4 mummies in the collection that were purchased by the church. Half a dozen may be used in general terms to signify a handful. Mother Smith explained that the mummies were a royal family and one of them was king Onitus (similar to Onitah mentioned in the Book of Abraham) a king of Egypt.

3. Charlotte then tells how mother Smith picked up a mummy leg which understandably looked like a club. It was heralded as the very leg of the princess that saved Moses from the Nile. At this juncture, Charlotte notes that mother Smith was smiling, was earnest in revealing her knowledge, and had a sincere countenance; these are not the traits of someone making up lies or playing a joke. Mother Smith seem to believe what she was saying was true.

4. Mother Smith claimed to have a long roll written in the writing of Abraham and Isaac but notes that the writing is in Hebrew and Sanskrit. Perhaps she thought Sanskrit was a form of Egyptian and there may have been Hebrew notations inserted by Joseph during a translation process of some form or another. Some Arabic writing is found in the Kirtland Egyptian Papers.

5. Mother Smith clearly believed she had the ability to interpret the foreign language and it in one form or another converted it into what seemed like Biblical passages, undoubtedly much to Charlotte’s amazement. Charlotte had to be wondering if it was a hoax of some sort but she firmly notes that mother Smith was confident in her ability because she learned those things from her son, Joseph.

6. The bottom line: A friendly witness states the Smith family claimed one of the mummies was a king of Egypt. There is no reason to suppose Charlotte made this stuff up and lied to her own mother.

Josiah Quincy, Figures of the Past, p. 385; Nauvoo, May 1844 wrote:

“And now come with me, ‘said the prophet and I will show you the curiosities.’ So saying, he led the way to a lower room, where sat a venerable and respectable-looking lady. ‘This is my mother, gentleman. The curiosities we shall see belong to her. They were purchased with her money, at a cost of 6,000 dollars’, and then, with deep feeling, were added the words, ‘And that woman was turned out upon the prairie in dead of night by a mob.’ There was some pine presses fixed against the wall of the room. These receptacles Smith opened, and disclosed four human bodies, shrunken and black with age. ‘These are mummies,’ said the exhibitor. ‘I want you to look at that little runt of a fellow over there. He was a great man in his day. Why, that was Pharaoh Necho, King of Egypt’! Some parchments inscribed with hieroglyphics were then offered us. They were preserved under glass and handled with great respect. ‘That is the handwriting of Abraham, the Father of the Faithful,’ said the prophet, ‘This is the autograph of Moses, and these lines were written by his brother Aaron. Here we have the earliest account of the Creation, from which Moses composed the First Book of Genesis.’ The parchment last referred to showed a rude drawing of a man and woman, and a serpent walking on a pair of legs. I ventured to doubt the propriety of providing the reptile in question with this unusual means of locomotion, ‘Why, that’s as plain as pikestaff,’ was the rejoinder. ‘Before the Fall snakes always went about on legs, just like chickens. They were deprived of them, in punishment of their agency in the ruin of man.’ We were further assured that the prophet was the only mortal who could translate these mysterious writings, and that his power was given by direct revelation.” (The Saga of the Book of Abraham; Jay M. Todd, p.256)

Josiah Quincy visited Nauvoo in May of 1844. This was about a year after Charlotte Havens encounter. His tour of the Egyptian curiosities was given personally by the prophet. Mr. Quincy records his experience in his journal which was later published in 1883.

1. Josiah Quincy appears to be giving an honest report of what he saw and heard. There is no reason to doubt his report.

2. Apparently mother Smith purchased the curiosities for a larger sum then originally purchased from the original owner. Josiah probably reported the wrong sum (6,000) or mother Smith secured a deal to purchase them for herself and appraised them at a higher value. This discrepancy however is a moot point.

3. Mr. Quincy had a personal conversation with the prophet who claimed one of the mummies was a king of Egypt. It’s curious that Joseph Smith identified the royal mummy with the Pharaoh who killed righteous king Josiah in the Bible by an archer during a skirmish. This Biblical event occurred some 600 years before Christ. There is nothing to indicate that a 600 year old royal mummy was part of the collection. The idea of unearthing a pharaoh from the tombs of Egypt without major fanfare and evidence of royal status is inconceivable.

4. Now we are introduced with the claim that Moses and Aaron wrote on the record. Moses’ own signature was supposedly contained on the papyrus.

5. Snakes once walked on legs. The record has a vignette of a snake walking on legs. Interestingly enough the fragments recovered by the church in 1967 contain a snake walking on legs. But, that shouldn’t surprise us considering the papyrus now extant is loaded with images showing it was indeed the papyrus mentioned by Joseph Smith and others.

6. The prophet translated by direct revelation.

Josiah Quincy wrote:

“On Mr. Quincy’s return to Joe’s house (which was the hotel or public house), he said they would perhaps like to see his curiosities, on their assenting, he took them down to his cellar, where there were several common pine presses, he opened these and to their astonishment they saw several black corpses. ‘That one’, said Joe, ‘is the body of Pharaoh Necho’. Joe it seems had the imported four mummies and having taken off the wrappers, had stood them upright in these presses. He then opened the little boxes which are always found about a mummy and took out some papyrus. ‘This,’ said he ‘is the handwriting of Abraham, that one is Moses,’ and so on. ‘These are hieroglyphics, nobody can read them but myself. I can read all the writing and all the hieroglyphics’ ― Mr. Quincy pointed to one of them which had a representation of a man, a woman, a tree, and a non-descript animal. ‘That,’ said Joe ‘is the creation of the World. There is Adam, Eve, the Tree of Knowledge, and a serpent’ ― Mr. Quincy asked him how it could be a serpent as it had legs. Joe answered, ‘Oh, you know that serpents originally had legs like chickens, but afterwards God said ‘Upon the belly shalt thou crawl’ and so he lost his legs. Mr. Quincy spoke of Joe having an extraordinary acquaintance with the Bible and hat he was very ready in reply, and clever in supporting his notions by quotations and reasoning. After the exhibition was closed Joe said, ‘Persons who see my curiosities usually give my mother a quarter of a dollar.’ This mother of his was a fine venerable looking lady.” (The Saga of the Book of Abraham; Jay M. Todd, p.257)

Josiah Quincy relayed his experience with the Egyptian artifacts to a friend named Henry Halkett. This information was passed on about a year after Quincy’s visit to Nauvoo. In 1845 Henry Halkett wrote down what he had heard from his friend.

1. Here we have another account that the prophet claimed one of the mummies was a king of Egypt.

2. Talk of the creation of the world is again mentioned to include the handwriting of Abraham and Moses. It’s not just the story of Abraham or a copy of a copy. It’s the very handwriting (diary account) of Abraham telling his story.

3. As might be expected, snakes walking like chickens are thoroughly explained. Had that information been left out the statement would have less impact and prove disappointing.

Reverend Henry Caswall wrote:

“She then directed me up a steep flight of stairs into a chamber, and slowly crept up after me. She shewed me a wretched cabinet, in which were four naked mummies frightfully disfigured, and in fact, most disgusting relics of mortality. One she said was a king of Egypt whom she named, two were his wives, and the remaining one was the daughter of another king. I asked her by what means she had become acquainted with the names and histories of these mummies. She replied, that her son had informed her, and that he had obtained this knowledge through the mighty power of God.” (City of the Mormons; 1843)

Reverend Henry Caswall visited the city of Nauvoo in 1842 soon after the Book of Abraham was published in the Times & Seasons. He was privileged to examine the Egyptian curiosities owned by the church. Mr. Caswall returned to England and wrote a book about his experience in Nauvoo.

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_Shulem
_Emeritus
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Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:48 am

Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _Shulem »

Bump, for the hell of it.

Ram it down the throats of faithful Mormons and let them choke on it.
_Philo Sofee
_Emeritus
Posts: 6660
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:04 am

Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Well, I know before, when I was defending the Book of Abraham, that I used only partial information. Now that we have the more full witness views and comments, I see little wiggle room for apologists. I also now don't see the discussion occurring much anymore either. That makes sense, since the evidence appears to have now gone the other way against apologetic tendencies.
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
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