DCP Shows Us Yet Again Why He's The [deleted] of Mopology

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_SteelHead
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Re: DCP Shows Us Yet Again Why He's The [deleted] of Mopolog

Post by _SteelHead »

130+ years of institutionalised and canonical racism is not going to disappear with a wink and a nod.

The church's mythology disagrees with all the physical evidence? Ya don't say.

Can a black couple serve as the witness couple representing Adam and Eve? In a live session can a black priesthood holder play the part of Elohim?

Anyone seen the official guidelines for this?
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_Johannes
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Re: DCP Shows Us Yet Again Why He's The [deleted] of Mopolog

Post by _Johannes »

Kishkumen wrote:I genuinely regret the way the temple ritual developed. There were many interesting possibilities to explore there, but ignorance regarding its historical background and context resulted in the membership's estrangement from a ritual that is only a shadow of its former self. It's too bad, but it is not all that surprising. There has to be some basic literacy in esoteric knowledge to support properly an esoteric ritual. Without that knowledge, the ritual will be mangled and eventually discarded.


I haz an interest in this and, like Sophocles, would be interested in learning more about your thoughts here.

I know a little about esoteric ritual, and I wonder how the temple ceremony fits into that category. The stated purpose of the endowment is for the patrons to be cleansed and prepared to become kings and priests of God. This is done through a drama in which the patrons identify with Adam and Eve, and with their fall into the lone and dreary world and their reascent to the celestial kingdom. The idea of (re)ascent to God is vaguely similar to ancient Hermetic mysticism and the Jewish merkavah tradition, but my feeling is that the theme of ascending to the divine is so general that it's probably a universal of human religious experience.

There are also features which are oddly typical of baptism rituals in traditional Christian churches: washing, anointing, ritual clothing, a new name. Of course, baptism too is a ritual of cleansing and (in the Protestant understanding) induction into the priesthood of believers.

When you say that the endowment is a shadow of its former self, do you perhaps mean that its true purpose has become reduced to the swearing of the covenants, so that it is now just a way of binding the community together and to its leaders? My impression is that this is the road that Freemasonry has gone down with its own ceremonies.

(In deference to the rules of this forum, I have tried to avoid explicit temple content in this post.)
_Kishkumen
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Re: DCP Shows Us Yet Again Why He's The [deleted] of Mopolog

Post by _Kishkumen »

Hey, Sophocles and Johannes. I apologize for not returned to this. I am on a trip and have not taken the time to write lengthy posts. I promise I will get back to this.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Xenophon
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Re: DCP Shows Us Yet Again Why He's The [deleted] of Mopolog

Post by _Xenophon »

Kishkumen wrote:Hey, Sophocles and Johannes. I apologize for not returned to this. I am on a trip and have not taken the time to write lengthy posts. I promise I will get back to this.

Take your time, Kish. I'll only forgive you for thinking I am Sophocles if you provide your thoughts though. :wink:
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens
_Johannes
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Re: DCP Shows Us Yet Again Why He's The [deleted] of Mopolog

Post by _Johannes »

I'm ashamed to say it was me who misremembered you as Sophocles. Wrong Athenian. The old brain doesn't work so well these days....
_Xenophon
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Re: DCP Shows Us Yet Again Why He's The [deleted] of Mopolog

Post by _Xenophon »

Johannes wrote:I'm ashamed to say it was me who misremembered you as Sophocles. Wrong Athenian. The old brain doesn't work so well these days....


Quite alright, just poking a bit of fun. If I remember correctly there is a poster here by that name and, if my old brain is working, I'm not at all ashamed to associate.

Johannes wrote:When you say that the endowment is a shadow of its former self, do you perhaps mean that its true purpose has become reduced to the swearing of the covenants, so that it is now just a way of binding the community together and to its leaders? My impression is that this is the road that Freemasonry has gone down with its own ceremonies.


I appreciated your thoughts up thread and I had a nearly identical thought as the portion I bolded when reading Kishkumen's response. I look forward to him elaborating.
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens
_moksha
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Re: DCP Shows Us Yet Again Why He's The [deleted] of Mopolog

Post by _moksha »

Xenophon wrote:If it wasn't for how peaceful the Celestial room was I don't think I would have ever done endowments again after my own.

Sort of like sitting in a comfortable leather chair in the B. Dalton Bookstore back in 1987 and reading the latest issue of Computer Shopper. You just had to return again for the next October issue.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Kishkumen
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Re: DCP Shows Us Yet Again Why He's The [deleted] of Mopolog

Post by _Kishkumen »

Johannes wrote:I know a little about esoteric ritual, and I wonder how the temple ceremony fits into that category. The stated purpose of the endowment is for the patrons to be cleansed and prepared to become kings and priests of God. This is done through a drama in which the patrons identify with Adam and Eve, and with their fall into the lone and dreary world and their reascent to the celestial kingdom. The idea of (re)ascent to God is vaguely similar to ancient Hermetic mysticism and the Jewish merkavah tradition, but my feeling is that the theme of ascending to the divine is so general that it's probably a universal of human religious experience.

There are also features which are oddly typical of baptism rituals in traditional Christian churches: washing, anointing, ritual clothing, a new name. Of course, baptism too is a ritual of cleansing and (in the Protestant understanding) induction into the priesthood of believers.

When you say that the endowment is a shadow of its former self, do you perhaps mean that its true purpose has become reduced to the swearing of the covenants, so that it is now just a way of binding the community together and to its leaders? My impression is that this is the road that Freemasonry has gone down with its own ceremonies.


OK. So, I have a moment to write, and I am going to make a stab at this. It may be that we are not in accord because of the difficulty of defining what esoteric is. I know that at ESSWE 6 scholars were wrestling with the definition of esotericism. Some of the top scholars in the world were arguing about what it means. So, I will set out the meaning I intended to convey when I wrote this:

Esoteric means "belonging to an inner group." For example, the Pythagorean sect had teachings for the general membership and the inner group. The latter, higher teachings might be called esoteric. In Mormonism, there are the Sunday teachings and rituals, and then there is the experience of the temple. The temple endowment is intended to be *secret* (as well as sacred), another hallmark of the esoteric, and to convey some of the meatier concepts or mysteries.

More generally, I tend to classify as esoteric those things that recall or recreate the Greek mystery cults, the Jerusalem Temple, and methods for achieving immortality and deification. In my view, the LDS temple ritual ticks all of those boxes, so I consider it esoteric, and that is not even taking into account the great debt it owes to Freemasonry.

Now, I understand that it is possible to pick out any of these elements and say, "well, X has that characteristic too, and I don't consider that esoteric," but I would argue that it is the combination of the characteristics that makes something esoteric, not just bits here and there. I am not sure why Christianity should be raised as a counter example, since there have been esoteric aspects of Christianity from very early on, and they have persisted here and there for over two millennia.

It is understandable how one's knowledge of the elements of the LDS endowment could make it appear mundane or simply run-of-the-mill. But this perception is really beside the point, in my view. The more important thing is that it ticks those boxes of secrecy, higher teachings, the mysteries, the temple, deification, etc. It may have many familiar elements and yet be esoteric.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kishkumen
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Re: DCP Shows Us Yet Again Why He's The [deleted] of Mopolog

Post by _Kishkumen »

The separate question is how the LDS endowment has failed. I understand that this is a harsh judgment, and there are many happy Mormons who would argue that it has not. But I think it is the case that the ritual lacks the underlying experience of a discursive community that would make it meaningful to the vast majority of members who participate. At this point, the temple is meaningful in that it is a special or different experience, but those who participate in it have no clue what the individual bits of it mean. And, it seems that the LDS Church has deliberately promoted this ignorance by severing ties with all of the knowledge and ritual practice that brought the endowment into being in the first place. I imagine that the early diviners, magicians, scholars, and freemasons who were taught the endowment by Joseph Smith were probably blown away, because they had some context or ritual language through which they might interpret the endowment. Now, people have a poor reading of the scriptures, vague teachings in church, and little else to help them. Perhaps the best one could get for a kind of preparation for the temple would be to read Hugh Nibley and other people like him. At least one gets something of the spirit that informed the whole thing, even if it comes in an incomplete, verbose, and very roundabout way.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kishkumen
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Re: DCP Shows Us Yet Again Why He's The [deleted] of Mopolog

Post by _Kishkumen »

An, finally, I am sorry I called you Sophocles, Xenophon. I plead distraction during my travels and parroting Johannes.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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