Radio Free Mormon Dissects Elder Holland Story

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_Lemmie
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Re: Radio Free Mormon Dissects Elder Holland Story

Post by _Lemmie »

zerinus wrote:I follow the Prophet when he is right.[/color][/color][/color]

This statement is so ridiculous on so many levels it boggles the mind.
_Choyo Chagas
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Re: Radio Free Mormon Dissects Elder Holland Story

Post by _Choyo Chagas »

Choyo Chagas wrote:Image.
zerinus wrote:I like the cartoon. I think God likes it as well.

as this one?

Image.
Choyo Chagas is Chairman of the Big Four, the ruler of the planet from "The Bull's Hour" ( Russian: Час Быка), a social science fiction novel written by Soviet author and paleontologist Ivan Yefremov in 1968.
Six months after its publication Soviet authorities banned the book and attempted to remove it from libraries and bookshops.
_JLHPROF
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Re: Radio Free Mormon Dissects Elder Holland Story

Post by _JLHPROF »

candygal wrote:Perhaps he has already responded but..I would love JHLROP take on this podcast! I am going to try and round him up!


Got your PM. Listened to that unpleasant diatribe of a podcast (as a favor to you who I consider a friend - I usually don't bother with podcasts).
Not sure what you would want me to say.
Elder Holland told a lame story to which he ascribed an unreasonable explanation.
The podcaster ranted about the story to which he ascribed an alternate explanation attempting to condemn the entire Church.
Many other explanations, all equally unprovable went unconsidered, but might be ranging into the "chaos theory" approach.
(ie, maybe the wrong path saved them from XYZ event known only to God and wasn't actually a wrong path).

The whole thing is pretty underwhelming as a point of gospel discussion from either side and does little to make the case for either side of the coin.
Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God. - Joseph Smith
_honorentheos
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Re: Radio Free Mormon Dissects Elder Holland Story

Post by _honorentheos »

zerinus wrote:There are some things we do not have answers for, and some things we do. Mormons have definitive answers to many questions that non-Mormons don’t. These include questions about moral issues, about right and wrong; as well as questions about eternal matters, such as church, religion, and God. Your kids will be missing a lot if you are not able to give them those definitive guidelines.


Right and Wrong, Right or Left - God Only Knows

"It's just over the next hill, boys! Don't worry, you can make it!"

Brother Jensen had to shout a little louder than last time in the hopes the boys further back would hear him. The Mountain Dew Heights Ward Varsity Scouts/Teacher’s Quorum had started the 8-mile hike back to the cars as an orderly line of boys with leaders in the front and back. But they were less than two hours on the trail and he could barely see Brother Ubrecht's orange Denver Broncos sweatshirt almost 600 yards and four switchbacks behind and above him. He was probably helping one of the boys toss the canned food and soda they decided to bring on their annual June hike and two-night wilderness camp. And he was honestly amazed most of the boys had completed the hike in with what must have been a loaded fabric Smith’s bag’s worth of candy, soda cans, and canned soups though not without complaining. Only Mike had ended up dumping out his six pack of root beer and portioning out some of the two large cans of Dinty Moore Hearty Beef Stew into a few extra Ziploc sandwich bags one of the better prepared boys had brought after he had grabbed his left side and claimed to have appendicitis so someone else would need to carry his pack. Switching his hand position to the right after being told he was grabbing the wrong side left him carrying his own pack still, almost crying about how much he hated his dad for making him come on the stupid hike in the first place.

Had they been able to get some sleep and eat the contents of their backpacks empty before hiking back out it probably would have made for amusing, heartwarming retelling when the boys had to speak in Sacrament meeting about the outing, too. But no one had thought that the light rain predicted in the valley their first night could mean snow in the mountains 8,000 feet higher. The snow had started a half hour before they got to their planned camping site. One of the boys had asked about setting up camp at a flat spot they were passing through when the snow started, but they had a plan and if Brother Jensen knew anything it was you keep to the plan. Besides, none of the boys and most of the adults had only packed flimsy ponchos in anticipation of rain. No one had packed anything warmer than sweatshirts for sleeping in, and no one had gloves or mittens. But, thank the Lord, combined with the ponchos the sweatshirts seemed to do a good job keeping the boys warm enough and dry. Keeping them moving just made sense.

But once they got to the camp site, got the fire started, and had set up the tents the storm had picked up, putting a full foot of snow on the ground and killing the fire before stopping. The cheer that followed the end of the snow fall was short lived as the temperatures dropped quickly though they did get the fire restarted. Brother Ubrecht and Brother Benson suggested everyone pile in to as few tents as possible to help share heat to sleep which made sense to Brother Jensen, and the group spent the night huddled together in sleeping bags and damp sweatshirts without a wink of sleep and taking turns practically standing in the fire. An impromptu prayer and quick council meeting around the fire in the middle of the night led the leaders to decide unless they started moving first thing in the morning something tragic was certain to happen.

The angry cloud cover from the storm hung over them ominously as dawn was nothing more than the dark gray outlines of trees and peaks emerging against the darker gray sky. But it provided enough light that Brother Jensen felt they could make their way back. They said a group prayer of thanks for surviving the night and asking for safety, then set off back down the trail they had only hours before hiked in on. Snow had started to fall again as the temperature warmed, big heavy wet flakes that made the crusted snow from the night before slippery and reduced visibility on the trail to the point Brother Jensen could only see the three boys who had been with him at the front the entire way.

“Hey, Brother Jensen, there’s a fork in the trail here. Maybe we should wait for the others to catch up?” Ammon had been leading the last quarter mile and on his own would probably have been back to the cars already. Running cross-country in school meant he knew he could cover the 8 miles a couple of times with gas left in the tank in the time it had taken the group to make the trip one way. Well, minus the snow anyway. He also knew how easy it could be to take the wrong trail at a fork even without the snow making the terrain unrecognizable from the day before.

“I know what you are saying, Ammon. But if we stop there’s a good chance one of us could get hypothermia by the time Brother Urbrecht catches up. It’s best if we get to the cars and get them started so when the rest of the boys get there they are already warmed up and waiting.” It was all Brother Jensen could do to get the words out himself between the fatigue from lack of sleep and the bone-shaking chill. Besides, he was afraid if he stopped himself, he might not get his legs moving again.

“Why don’t you mark the trail so the guys behind us know which way to go, though? Just to be safe.”

Ammon nodded, and pulling a branch poking out of the snow, created a make-shift arrow pointing in the direct back to the cars before the four of them set off down the left fork in the trail.

….

Josh had almost bumped into Tyler standing at a fork in the trail as he trudged head-down following what had to be the trail because of the footprints he could barely make out under the increasing blanket of snow. When he looked up, he realized that once he caught up to Tyler there were no footprints. Both trails looked the same to him, and Tyler was just standing there, unsure.

“I can’t feel my toes, Josh. I don’t know which way to go. I…I think we’re in real trouble.” Tyler wasn’t someone Josh spent much time with at school or anywhere else, even church. But he wouldn’t have thought of him as weak, either. Almost the opposite. While a little bookish, Tyler wasn’t exactly a small guy and had won their troop’s push-up contest last January when they had started the year with a “Get Fit!” goal setting challenge that everyone promptly forgot about by February with the beginning of the “Read the Book of Mormon” challenge. To see Tyler looking scared made Josh scared. But as 2nd counselor in the Teacher’s Quorum, Josh felt like he had to take charge.

“Tyler, we have the priesthood. And the prophets have promised us that if we knock, God will open the door. I think we should pray and ask Heavenly Father to help us.”

Tyler nodded. “I’ve been praying, too, Josh. But you’re right. Maybe Heavenly Father wanted me to wait for you to get to me before He answered so we’d be together.”

“Yeah, Tyler. I’m sure that’s it. Let’s both pray and then if we both agree on the trail we feel we should take, we’ll go that way.”

Both boys bowed their heads quietly, the snow continuing to fall around them building the small drifts higher. Josh finished his prayer, and looked up to see Tyler with his eyes open.

“Right.”

“That’s what I feel, too. I think anyway. I wasn’t sure but when you said, ‘right’, I felt calm. I think that’s the spirit confirming your answer. Maybe it’s because you are in the Teacher’s Quorum presidency?”

The thought gave Josh comfort that Heavenly Father would honor him that way, and any doubts he had were washed away with a warm feeling of confidence. That had to be the spirit.

“Let’s go.”

The two boys moved off to the right and were quickly out of sight of anyone who may have been behind them. The snow continued to fall, covering their footprints and mounding up higher on the snow drift that had formed over the arrow of wood built by Ammon.



When Brother Ubrecht and Mike made it to the fork, where Brother Benson and Jessie were waiting, there was no sign anyone had gone down the right fork. Brother Ubrecht had been selected to bring up the rear because he was familiar with the route and had camped here before.

“Anyone behind you?” Brother Benson was stomping from foot to foot to keep warm and was genuinely glad to see them.

“Nope, and the sooner we get to the cars the sooner we can get to a hot bath.”



“Fourteen! Fourteen…!” Brother Ubrecht and Brother Benson had a look of shock on their faces as Brother Jensen repeated the total from the second head count. Brother Jensen, Ammon, and the rest of the first group had been back to the SUV’s a full hour-and-a-half before Brother Ubrecht and Mike had finally came into sight just a few minutes earlier where the trail emerged onto the forest service road where they were parked along the side. Boys had been crammed into Brother Jensen’s Xterra getting warm with their packs dumped in the trailer behind it until Brother Benson made it to start his Outback just minutes before Brother Ubrecht came into view and Brother Jensen was finally beginning to regain some semblance of coherent, non-hypothermic thought again. Seeing the boys crammed into the two cars made it hard to determine who they were still waiting for, but he knew Brother Ubrecht wouldn’t let a boy get behind him on the trail. Until he saw Brother Ubrecht, they would be waiting.

A quick headcount and we're out, Brother Jensen had thought as he watched Brother Ubrecht swiftly walking towards them as Mike almost sprinted for the cars.

But there should have been sixteen.



Tyler and Josh had been walking an hour, the snow coming down in front of them making it hard to tell where the trail even was. Nothing looked familiar to them, and neither was sure if they had made the right choice anymore. Their prayers were constant, silent, and pleading from genuine fear.

“Josh…I think we may have gone down the wrong fork in the trail. I don’t recognize anything. Wouldn’t we be close enough to the cars by now we’d be able to see the road or the river?”

Josh shared Tyler’s concern, but the idea that Heavenly Father had honored him and his priesthood office made him proud. It hurt to think maybe he wasn’t worthy, that perhaps Heavenly Father wasn’t going to help him now because he doubted or maybe because he was proud of being special. Or maybe because he had those dreams that made him feel guilty after but also relieved they turned out to not have really happened. How would he be able to tell his parents and the bishop if he had really…with her…the relief and guilt came back at the same time. Maybe that is why Father in Heaven was testing him? Maybe if he promised to control his dreams, to not think about it anymore and wonder, “what if…?” Maybe then they could get home safely.

“Tyler…I…I don’t know. Maybe Father in Heaven is trying to tell us we need to have more faith? To be willing to give ourselves to him by giving up some sin or something that He can’t help us yet because we aren’t worthy enough?”

The look of guilt on Tyler’s face confirmed to Josh that this really was it. Heavenly Father couldn’t help them or answer their prayers. They weren’t worthy enough.

“Maybe if we pray for forgiveness? Maybe, maybe then He’ll help us? I…I guess I should tell you that I was proud back there, that I thought I might be somehow more special because I was in the Teachers Quorum presidency. And now I think I’m being tested because of my pride. I’m sorry. I’m not better than you. Please forgive me, Tyler.”

“There’s nothing to forgive, Josh. I’m the Martin Harris. I don’t have enough faith for Heavenly Father to be able to help us. I should be asking you to forgive me. I’m so sorry.”

“It’s ok, Tyler. I forgive you.”

Both boys looked around, avoiding the other’s eyes.

“Should we go back?”

“I don’t know. But it can’t hurt. If they come looking for us, if we go back to the fork in the trail then it won’t matter which one they come on, right?”

“Yeah, you’re right. Let’s go back.”



“I know the Church is true, I love my family, and I know that God hears and answers prayer. I’m so grateful for His help and for the friendships I made. I know that if we hadn’t humbled ourselves and prayed Tyler and I wouldn’t be here today. I’m so grateful for Ammon, who found us and was able to help us get to the cars. I’m so grateful to Brother Jensen, Brother Benson, and Brother Ubrecht for being such great priesthood leaders who were guided by the spirit and got us all home safe. It reminds me of a scripture we learned in seminary…”, Josh opened his scriptures to the book mark as his parents looked proudly up at their son, now a local hero in their ward for his testimony gained when God had saved him and Tyler from dying in the snow. Blessed be the name of the Lord, amen.
Last edited by Guest on Sun May 21, 2017 12:27 am, edited 5 times in total.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_honorentheos
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Re: Radio Free Mormon Dissects Elder Holland Story

Post by _honorentheos »

The above is a fictionalized account loosely based on an actual story told in a stake conference by a leader that was meant to sound faith promoting that I attended once. Just to be clear, the leadership sucked ass and almost got two boys killed. Everything the leader shared in the talk said he had no business leading a group of boys on a hike in a wilderness area. It was insane.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_Shulem
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Re: Radio Free Mormon Dissects Elder Holland Story

Post by _Shulem »

zerinus wrote:I follow the Prophet when he is right.

zerinus
I am a Mormon!


Are you still a "Mormon" zerinus? I'm not sure prophet Nelson would agree with this usage. Isn't it a victory for Satan?
_Meadowchik
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Re: Radio Free Mormon Dissects Elder Holland Story

Post by _Meadowchik »

JLHPROF wrote:
candygal wrote:Perhaps he has already responded but..I would love JHLROP take on this podcast! I am going to try and round him up!


Got your PM. Listened to that unpleasant diatribe of a podcast (as a favor to you who I consider a friend - I usually don't bother with podcasts).
Not sure what you would want me to say.
Elder Holland told a lame story to which he ascribed an unreasonable explanation.
The podcaster ranted about the story to which he ascribed an alternate explanation attempting to condemn the entire Church.
Many other explanations, all equally unprovable went unconsidered, but might be ranging into the "chaos theory" approach.
(ie, maybe the wrong path saved them from XYZ event known only to God and wasn't actually a wrong path).

The whole thing is pretty underwhelming as a point of gospel discussion from either side and does little to make the case for either side of the coin.


That "lame story" teaches a very dangerous moral. That is the problem with it.
_Shulem
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Re: Radio Free Mormon Dissects Elder Holland Story

Post by _Shulem »

I'm going to listen to the podcast on the way home to Dallas-- downtown Dallas, home sweet home. It was sunny and 80 degrees today! What a lovely day.

:smile:

Wrong Roads
_I have a question
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Re: Radio Free Mormon Dissects Elder Holland Story

Post by _I have a question »

The Apostle who admits to not being able to differentiate a right road from a wrong road, wants you to follow his lead...
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_Shulem
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Re: Radio Free Mormon Dissects Elder Holland Story

Post by _Shulem »

I have a question wrote:The Apostle who admits to not being able to differentiate a right road from a wrong road, wants you to follow his lead...


The story and his conclusions in explaining away the lack of revelation on his part is absolutely telling. The man is a fake. So-called Mormon revelation is no better than anyone else's revelation as we all go through life trying to figure out what to do.

Suppose Holland had a choice of pushing two buttons in order to escape certain doom. One button opened the door leading to safety and the other blows up the building. Is God going to inspire him to press the right button the first time? There is no second chances!

RFM knocked the story out of the park. Well done.
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