OMG Yet another Ut Mormon perpetrated fraud amongst members.

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_I have a question
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Re: OMG Yet another Ut Mormon perpetrated fraud amongst memb

Post by _I have a question »

Res Ipsa wrote:I don't think labeling this particular group of folks as gullible is fair or helpful in any way. Affinity fraud is is a significant problem among lots of groups. Here's a list of SEC prosecutions from a few years back. https://www.sec.gov/investor/pubs/affinity.htm The widespread nature of this problem tells me were dealing with a human problem and not specifically an LDS problem. I think we may have a little confirmation bias at work here.


It is a widespread problem, but Mormons are at the epicenter.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8656 ... -hurt.html

Either belief in Mormonism increases ones gullibility levels, or Mormonism attracts people whose gullibility levels are already elevated.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
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Re: OMG Yet another Ut Mormon perpetrated fraud amongst memb

Post by _Choyo Chagas »

I have a question wrote:Either belief in Mormonism increases ones gullibility levels, or Mormonism attracts people whose gullibility levels are already elevated.

both
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Re: OMG Yet another Ut Mormon perpetrated fraud amongst memb

Post by _Sanctorian »

Remember when MG said atheist are more likely to be liars... :lol:
I'm a Ziontologist. I self identify as such.
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Re: OMG Yet another Ut Mormon perpetrated fraud amongst memb

Post by _Res Ipsa »

I have a question wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:I don't think labeling this particular group of folks as gullible is fair or helpful in any way. Affinity fraud is is a significant problem among lots of groups. Here's a list of SEC prosecutions from a few years back. https://www.sec.gov/investor/pubs/affinity.htm The widespread nature of this problem tells me were dealing with a human problem and not specifically an LDS problem. I think we may have a little confirmation bias at work here.


It is a widespread problem, but Mormons are at the epicenter.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8656 ... -hurt.html

Either belief in Mormonism increases ones gullibility levels, or Mormonism attracts people whose gullibility levels are already elevated.


Or are they? Can you give me statistics showing the prevalence of affinity fraud among Mormons as opposed to, say, Seventh-Day Adventists? Jehovah's Witnesses? Scientologists? Elks? Masons? Veterans? Lutherans? If you've been able to find such statistics by group, then please post a linky because I sure haven't.

What we do have is statistics by state. The problem is, the state statistics are not a good proxy for other groups with high affinity among members. Why? Because the Mormons are much, much more geographically concentrated than comparable groups. So, it's entirely possible that the affinity fraud rate is lower among Mormons than among other high affinity groups, but Utah is high because LDS are concentrated there.

In addition, the fact that LDS are (1) a high affinity group; and (2) geographically concentrated in Utah make Utah Mormons a juicy target for fraudsters. So, how much of the elevated fraud rate in Utah is because people magically become stupid when they join the LDS church and how much is the higher supply of fraudsters in the state? I don't know. More importantly, you don't either.

Affinity fraudsters exploit some of the ways the brain has been hardwired through tens of thousands of years of evolution. When people fall for these scammers, they are doing what human brains do.

By the same token, your brain is also doing what brains naturally do. We call it confirmation bias. In your rush to post yet another slam on Mormons, you never stopped to think through why the data looks the way it does.

Veterans are also very vulnerable to affinity fraud. Would you write this about them:

Either service in the armed forces increases ones gullibility levels or the armed forces attract people whose gullibility levels are already elevated.

See how bigoted that sounds?
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
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Re: OMG Yet another Ut Mormon perpetrated fraud amongst memb

Post by _I have a question »

"Fleecing The Flock"
The hook of Mormon

The state thought to have the most affinity fraud per head is Utah, where 60% of the population are Mormons. In 2010, regulators and the FBI were investigating cases there with 4,400 victims and perhaps $1.4 billion (or $500 for every Utahn) in losses. The numbers have surely climbed since, with the three largest cases alone involving combined losses of up to $700m, says one investigator.

Mormons tend to be both trusting and welcoming of newcomers, says Keith Woodwell, head of Utah's Division of Securities. As soon as you pull up to your new house, neighbours appear to help you unpack. A scammer who gets his foot in the door can exploit this closeness.

LuElla Day, for example, lost $1.2m in a deal hatched by Daniel Merriman, a fellow Mormon she had known for four years. “He'd spoken at our meetings. When I sold my farm, he came and said the bishop had asked him to help me invest the proceeds,” says the 81-year-old. He told her the money would go into government debt. The transaction was done on a handshake. Ms Day never got a penny back.

http://www.economist.com/node/21543526
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
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Re: OMG Yet another Ut Mormon perpetrated fraud amongst memb

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The state with the highest rate of affinity fraud is Utah, where more than 60 percent of its population belongs to the LDS Church. The FBI calculates that there were more than 4,400 victims in 2012 with a net loss of $1.4 billion. It’s not that LDS Church members and Utahns haven’t been warned. In 1982, then BYU President Jeffrey R. Holland warned students about such schemes. Warnings have appeared many times over the years in conferences and church publications with a similar theme — if it sounds to good to be true, it probably is.

http://universe.byu.edu/2014/06/16/affi ... d-mormons/
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
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Re: OMG Yet another Ut Mormon perpetrated fraud amongst memb

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You're not responding to what I wrote. I'm not claiming that affinity fraud isn't a problem in the LDS church. Tell me, what is the rate of affinity fraud among Mormons as opposed to Seventh-day Adventists, Lutherans, Veterans, or the Elks Club. Got data?
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
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Re: OMG Yet another Ut Mormon perpetrated fraud amongst memb

Post by _I have a question »

Res Ipsa wrote:You're not responding to what I wrote. I'm not claiming that affinity fraud isn't a problem in the LDS church. Tell me, what is the rate of affinity fraud among Mormons as opposed to Seventh-day Adventists, Lutherans, Veterans, or the Elks Club. Got data?


That's a matter for Seventh-day Adventist Discussions, Lutheran Discussions, Veteran Discussions and Elk Club Discussions boards.

From a faithful source...
Mormons may be More Gullible than Other Investors
Over the year I have spent some time thinking about why Mormons might be particularly vulnerable to unwise speculation and/or debt management. Most of the factors I have come to believe contribute to the problem are factors that are general to members of the Church everywhere and not just Latter-day Saints in Utah. These are not scientific, they are just my opinions. See if they don’t make sense to you.

http://ldsmag.com/article-1-4764/

First, most people tend to judge others by themselves. If you are striving to be honest and always tell the truth, there is a tendency to assume others will do the same. Regrettably, that is not always the case. Honesty is a wonderful attribute. However, if it leads to naïvété it can be dangerous. Christ was honest but he never for a minute misunderstood where the Pharisees and Sadducees were coming from. He knew when they were trying to trick him.

Second, Latter-day Saints have respect for people serving in visible Church callings. A salesman tells us that Bro. X, who happens to hold a prominent Church calling, is on the board of directors of the company. Or we are told that Bro. Y – who is a beloved stake president – is a big investor. Or the person doing the selling is on the high council of his stake. There is a tendency for us to set aside our own critical study and plunge in because people we respect spiritually are involved financially. This is not a leap of logic we are wise to make.

Third, some Mormons are guilty of what I call righteous greed. We sometimes reason that since we pay our tithing, attend the temple regularly and always get our visiting teaching done in the first half of the month we are entitled to a blessing. And the blessing we want is a lot of money. (It may not be the blessing the Lord wants for us.) We convince ourselves the Lord will make the get-rich-quick scheme or the debt we are looking at work out to our benefit. We reason to ourselves that as soon as we are rich we will use the money to retire to a lifetime of Church service. (Actual observation suggests many members first want an expensive home and a luxury car before helping out the poor and giving Church service.)
Last edited by Guest on Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
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Re: OMG Yet another Ut Mormon perpetrated fraud amongst memb

Post by _Res Ipsa »

I have a question wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:You're not responding to what I wrote. I'm not claiming that affinity fraud isn't a problem in the LDS church. Tell me, what is the rate of affinity fraud among Mormons as opposed to Seventh-day Adventists, Lutherans, Veterans, or the Elks Club. Got data?


That's a matter for Seventh-day Adventist Discussions, Lutheran Discussions, Veteran Discussions and Elk Club Discussions boards.


And there you have it, confirmation bias in all its glory.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
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Re: OMG Yet another Ut Mormon perpetrated fraud amongst memb

Post by _I have a question »

Res Ipsa wrote:And there you have it, confirmation bias in all its glory.


Not at all. You've yet to show any data that would suggest concluding that "either Mormonism makes people more gullible or Mormonism attracts more gullible people" is unreasonable. I'll happily read and consider it when you do.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
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