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Re: Racism trending in Mormonism

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:01 pm
by DarkHelmet
Rollo Tomasi wrote:I believe, the only way the LDS Church can begin to make real headway with the problem of racism is to officially renounce and apologize for the priesthood ban, as well as admit that the ban's origin had nothing to do with God but was purely the product of mankind's racism of the times.


The LDS church is scared to do this because they think it would undermine their claim to have a living prophet who speaks with God, but they should understand that when they issue the apology, the faithful members will think it's just more proof the church is true, and the non-mormon world, for the most part, won't care. The critics will be able to claim the priesthood ban is proof the LDS prophet does not speak to God, but we don't believe the prophet speaks to god anyway. The 2 groups of people the church cares about: active members, potential converts, will not be affected by an apology, and an apology will help defuse the argument when critics bring it up.

Re: Racism trending in Mormonism

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:03 pm
by Bob Loblaw
DarkHelmet wrote:The LDS church is scared to do this because they think it would undermine their claim to have a living prophet who speaks with God, but they should understand that when they issue the apology, the faithful members will think it's just more proof the church is true, and the non-mormon world, for the most part, won't care. The critics will be able to claim the priesthood ban is proof the LDS prophet does not speak to God, but we don't believe the prophet speaks to god anyway. The 2 groups of people the church cares about: active members, potential converts, will not be affected by an apology, and an apology will help defuse the argument when critics bring it up.


The church would rather just pretend the teachings have disappeared, but unfortunately they have helpful members to remind the rest of the world of the church's racist history. If they were smart, they'd just send out a First Presidency letter telling members to shut up about it.

Re: Racism trending in Mormonism

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:05 pm
by Kevin Graham
Again, Facebook friends are updated on each others posts. From what I can tell, you're hardly ever on Facebook. But Dan is on it regularly. Maybe he didn't see this post but it is difficult to believe he's seen none of the crap this guy posts. My point is Dan gives his fellow Mormons a pass. He loves to tell people he has sworn me off because I said Muhammed was intolerant. He loves to tell people I'm a racist bigot as an excuse to ignore my criticisms. Yet, we see he has no problem befriending or closely associating with people who say things so racist and bigoted that I come across like Ghandi by comparison. So long as they are LDS.

Re: Racism trending in Mormonism

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:28 pm
by Thain Daniels
Kevin Graham wrote:One of the things that I've noticed during the "Age of Facebook" is that there are a large number of people who appear to be well-rounded Mormons. They're usually friends with people like Dan Peterson and other high profile Mormons. Last night a mutual friend of Kerry Shirts and Dan Peterson commented on one of Kerry's posts. It was the usual Loran Blood type rant against all things "leftist." That didn't really surprise me. What really surprised me is that when I clicked on this guy's profile it showed he had made a recent comment on this Right Wing website.

He said, and I quote:

The facts are overwhelming.... blacks are sick animals... not that there aren't some blacks who don't fit either category, either sick or an animal. In fact you may find a small,...very small,... minority that are worth being around.

But the problem is all you need to do is take one example from the other category and regardless of the vast numbers of productive blacks you may assemble, when you mix even one from the destructive category in with the productive they all become sick animals... it's just a matter of time.

Ultimately, we conclude that their nature is to choose evil over good.... that's not racism... that's what they have shown to the world time and time again... in every nation and in every community in which they live.

And so, it isn't so much our property they are stealing as the hard fought and paid for in the blood of our ancestors, peaceful way of life that exists wherever white people live and govern over themselves.


Now, I know what you're thinking. This is just one racist opinion by a guy who happens to be Mormon and shouldn't be used to describe Mormonism at large. Well, of course. If this were just an anomaly.

But I have noticed over the years that there are more and more anomalies like this who gradually appear on the scene, as if to say, I'm not going to hide my racist roots anymore. They all sport the usual "Good Mormon" image. Their Facebook photos are loaded with mission pictures of themselves and even their children, their timelines are loaded with one General Authority citation after another, and then unexpectedly they poison that wholesome Good Mormon image with racist s*** like this.

I think it is interesting because Dan Peterson will go out of his way to find reasons to accuse me and other critics of bigotry and racism, yet he doesn't say a flippin word when his own "friends" exhibit extreme racist views.


Thanks for sharing this, Kevin. This is an issue we should all be concerned about.

Upon further investigation I found that this poster has made similarly bigoted statements against those who practice Islam.

You really believe this baloney? Islam is an anti-intellectual religion, and the only reason it grows is because of massive breeding. That's right. Muslims generally produce 2 to 6 times the offspring of average "Christian" countries. This is established fact that cannot be dismissed. As far as Islam growing in America, it is due to the same reason they grow in France, Egypt and every other Muslim country. Out of control BREEDING.


http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/29222

Oops. My mistake. Looks like it was you, Kevin Graham, who made these statements about Muslims and breeding. Yikes!

Re: Racism trending in Mormonism

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:30 pm
by dryfly
According to a recent Gallup poll, 46% of Americans believe in Creation, http://www.gallup.com/poll/155003/hold- ... igins.aspx. To many, the Human Genographic Project and the science behind it, showing human migration out of Africa beginning some 60,000 years ago, means nothing. Understanding that skin color is but an environmental adaptation means nothing.

When I read or hear racist comments such as the one highlighted by Kevin Graham, it's shocking.

"But the problem is all you need to do is take one example from the other category and regardless of the vast numbers of productive blacks you may assemble, when you mix even one from the destructive category in with the productive they all become sick animals... it's just a matter of time. Ultimately, we conclude that their nature is to choose evil over good.... that's not racism... that's what they have shown to the world time and time again... in every nation and in every community in which they live."

How is it that this man can have such a twisted view of humanity? He probably has no idea that blacks were forced into slavery long after the Emancipation Proclamation. A 90 minute documentary, "Slavery by Another Name", http://www.pbs.org/tpt/slavery-by-another-name/, tells a heart wrenching story.

His ignorance of the people living on the African continent is obvious. How do you even have a discussion with someone who believes such garbage.

Were DCP to read this guy's rant, my belief is he would strongly denounce it. I don't use Facebook, else I'd forward it to him. I'd be curious if he would respond on Patheos.

Re: Racism trending in Mormonism

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:31 pm
by Thain Daniels
Kevin Graham wrote:Again, Facebook friends are updated on each others posts. From what I can tell, you're hardly ever on Facebook. But Dan is on it regularly. Maybe he didn't see this post but it is difficult to believe he's seen none of the crap this guy posts. My point is Dan gives his fellow Mormons a pass. He loves to tell people he has sworn me off because I said Muhammed was intolerant. He loves to tell people I'm a racist bigot as an excuse to ignore my criticisms. Yet, we see he has no problem befriending or closely associating with people who say things so racist and bigoted that I come across like Ghandi by comparison. So long as they are LDS.


Are you seriously giving DCP crap because he *didn't* comment on someone's Facebook status? Really?

Re: Racism trending in Mormonism

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:32 pm
by Everybody Wang Chung
Runtu wrote:As racist as that guy's post was on that conservative site, I don't think it's fair to paint Dan as a racist because he hasn't denounced that comment. I doubt he's even seen it, as Kevin had to dig through a few links to find it.



Runtu,

I agree with you that Dan shouldn't be denounced as a racist for failing to denounce that comment.

However, I think there is ample evidence regarding Daniel C. Peterson and his views on race to give one pause. Here is just one example out of many:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=28006

Re: Racism trending in Mormonism

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:34 pm
by Runtu
Everybody Wang Chung wrote:Runtu,

I agree with you that Dan shouldn't be denounced as a racist for failing to denounce that comment.

However, I think there is ample evidence regarding Daniel C. Peterson and his views on race to give one pause. Here is just one example out of many:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=28006


I have no problem criticizing what people actually say. I just don't find it helpful to criticize them for things they didn't say and may not even have seen.

Re: Racism trending in Mormonism

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:50 pm
by Yoda
Runtu wrote:
Everybody Wang Chung wrote:Runtu,

I agree with you that Dan shouldn't be denounced as a racist for failing to denounce that comment.

However, I think there is ample evidence regarding Daniel C. Peterson and his views on race to give one pause. Here is just one example out of many:

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/vie ... =1&t=28006


I have no problem criticizing what people actually say. I just don't find it helpful to criticize them for things they didn't say and may not even have seen.


Amen.

I have, I think, about 350+ friends on Facebook. I'm pretty sure Dan has more than that. Many of my friends on Facebook are acquaintances at best. Now you guys are making me wonder if I should go through my Facebook and weed people out who might possibly post something stupid that I could get blamed for simply because I have a tacit friend connection with them on a website I rarely access. :rolleyes:

Like Runtu, Kevin, I have no problem with you going after the jerk who actually made those comments. But unless you can prove that Dan has a close relationship with this person and has joined him in voicing some of these outlandish opinions, I don't think it is right to connect Dan with this person's comments.

Re: Racism trending in Mormonism

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:05 pm
by ZelphtheGreat
LDS Leadership is, in the main... old men.

Old enough to have seen the Ryan O'neal and Ali McGraw movie LOVE STORY when they were young.

This shaped their Gospel thinking as they remember the main line of the movie: Love means never having to say you're sorry.

Explains a lot, doesn't it?

Re: Racism trending in Mormonism

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:56 pm
by sock puppet
Kevin Graham wrote:I'm not saying Dan is racist, I'm just saying he has a double-standard. He tolerates it and then he doesn't tolerate it, all based upon the racist's religious loyalties.

I too think his religious loyalties duplicity is obvious.

Re: Racism trending in Mormonism

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:03 pm
by Kevin Graham
Are you seriously giving DCP crap because he *didn't* comment on someone's Facebook status? Really?


No. Read the thread from the beginning.

Re: Racism trending in Mormonism

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:26 pm
by sock puppet
ZelphtheGreat wrote:LDS Leadership is, in the main... old men.

Old enough to have seen the Ryan O'neal and Ali McGraw movie LOVE STORY when they were young.

This shaped their Gospel thinking as they remember the main line of the movie: Love means never having to say you're sorry.

Explains a lot, doesn't it?

Hey, I felt the spirit strongly when I saw that movie--during it's first run in theaters.

Re: Racism trending in Mormonism

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:24 pm
by sunstoned
DarkHelmet wrote:
Rollo Tomasi wrote:I believe, the only way the LDS Church can begin to make real headway with the problem of racism is to officially renounce and apologize for the priesthood ban, as well as admit that the ban's origin had nothing to do with God but was purely the product of mankind's racism of the times.


The LDS church is scared to do this because they think it would undermine their claim to have a living prophet who speaks with God, but they should understand that when they issue the apology, the faithful members will think it's just more proof the church is true, and the non-mormon world, for the most part, won't care. The critics will be able to claim the priesthood ban is proof the LDS prophet does not speak to God, but we don't believe the prophet speaks to god anyway. The 2 groups of people the church cares about: active members, potential converts, will not be affected by an apology, and an apology will help defuse the argument when critics bring it up.


Another problem the church has is the racism that is in the Book of Mormon. This "most correct" book that members are encouraged to read each year has some very racist teachings.

Re: Racism trending in Mormonism

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:25 pm
by moksha
bcspace wrote:Moksha admitted to lying above and for what reason? None that makes any sense.


It was not a lie, recent Church Presidents have come out strongly against racism. Look, if you really think that is a lie, ask that question over at MD&D and I bet at least 60% of them will agree that recent Church Presidents have made such a statement.

As to my reason for mentioning this? It is vital information regarding any reappearing racism and the true position of the Mormon Church regarding the status of racism. President Hinckley went so far as to say a man could not be a disciple of Christ and have such racial hatred in his heart.

Re: Racism trending in Mormonism

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:21 am
by Always Changing
moksha wrote: President Hinckley went so far as to say a man could not be a disciple of Christ and have such racial hatred in his heart.
Prejudice based on lineage is still a form of racism. Mormons originally justified their racism saying that it was prejudice based on lineage.

Has a recent prophet made a statement rejecting that also?

Re: Racism trending in Mormonism

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:55 am
by lostindc
wow, I just went to the dude's Facebook that made the comment (cited in the OP of this thread) and he is one sick dude. He is out in the open about his beliefs. He has 500 plus friends and has no problem declaring his hatred for black people.

As to the OP. Yes, there is an enormous amount of racism found in the membership of the Church.

Re: Racism trending in Mormonism

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:05 am
by dryfly
lostindc wrote:wow, I just went to the dude's Facebook that made the comment (cited in the OP of this thread) and he is one sick dude. He is out in the open about his beliefs. He has 500 plus friends and has no problem declaring his hatred for black people.

As to the OP. Yes, there is an enormous amount of racism found in the membership of the Church.


Our nation was founded on racism, from slavery to the belief in "manifest destiny", which caused the suffering of millions on our continent. What is disturbing, is that people are still so ignorant today, as this guy certainly is. Someone should forward his post to DCP. I'd be very interested in his response.

Re: Racism trending in Mormonism

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:52 pm
by Kevin Graham
Upon further investigation I found that this poster has made similarly bigoted statements against those who practice Islam.


Then you're an idiot if you think that. There is nothing "similar" between one statement calling an entire race of humans a bunch of sick animals, and another describing a world religion's primary mode of expansion. I stated a simple fact and supported it with hard data. Muslim countries reproduce at roughly three times the global average. This best explains why Islam continues to grow.

The only people who have a problem with what I said tend to be people who are too dumb to understand that the word "breed" applies to humans and not just animals. If a religion cannot spread via intellectual persuasion, it must do so by other means. Islam's history has shown that it was most successful spreading by the sword as well as out of control breeding. You don't hear of Islamic missionary efforts in western Europe or east Asia resulting in the kinds of religious expansions as has always existed in other religions like Christianity. No. Instead, history shows expansion of the Islamic religion via military conquest.

But back to the topic. I don't know why it is that every time a thread reaches the second page, people start jumping in with dumb comments demonstrating that they never bothered to read the first page. I made it perfectly clear from the beginning that I'm not calling Dan a racist or judging him based on one other person's comments. As I said, this has been building up over years of similar anecdotes where Dan associates with known Mormon racists and bigots while condemning racism and bigotry only with those who fall into the ex-Mormon group. He is a hypocrite to say the least. That was my overall point of this thread, along with the institutionalized racism that still runs rampant throughout the Church, despite the PR efforts to quell such sentiments.

Re: Racism trending in Mormonism

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:08 pm
by Thain Daniels
Kevin Graham wrote:
Upon further investigation I found that this poster has made similarly bigoted statements against those who practice Islam.


Then you're an idiot if you think that. There is nothing "similar" between one statement calling an entire race of humans a bunch of sick animals, and another describing a world religion's primary mode of expansion. I stated a simple fact and supported it with hard data. Muslim countries reproduce at roughly three times the global average. This best explains why Islam continues to grow.



So Kevin, when you and your wife want to have Children do you say: "Honey, I think it is time we resume breeding."

If I'm an idiot, you are a hypocrite with selective outrage.

Re: Racism trending in Mormonism

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:21 pm
by Yoda
Kevin wrote:But back to the topic. I don't know why it is that every time a thread reaches the second page, people start jumping in with dumb comments demonstrating that they never bothered to read the first page. I made it perfectly clear from the beginning that I'm not calling Dan a racist or judging him based on one other person's comments. As I said, this has been building up over years of similar anecdotes where Dan associates with known Mormon racists and bigots while condemning racism and bigotry only with those who fall into the ex-Mormon group. He is a hypocrite to say the least. That was my overall point of this thread, along with the institutionalized racism that still runs rampant throughout the Church, despite the PR efforts to quell such sentiments.



Kevin, you and I have been friends for a long time. And I hope you take my comments as non-provoking. That is not what I am trying to do. First of all, I agree that the statements that that nut said were awful. I don't think that anyone disputes that. (At least, I would hope not!)

Actually, I think you did Dan a favor by pointing this post out to him because he honestly has never heard of this guy, and, I believe, is in the process of de-friending him. I think it probably would have been a nicer gesture if you had contacted Dan privately about this rather than start a public thread about it, and, in a rather passive-aggressive way, accuse Dan of "letting things go" when it comes to racist comments from LDS members as opposed to non or anti-LDS members. I just don't think it was fair to assume that Dan was close friends with this guy, or supported, or, at the very least, "simply looked the other way", when it came to this guy's comments.

As an infrequent user of Facebook, I can empathize with Dan's position on this one. I often go weeks, sometimes months without checking Facebook, and I would be really upset if I was accused of having any type of racist proclivities simply because of something some idiot who commented on one of my Facebook threads had said.