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 Post subject: Lehi's landing place
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:20 pm 
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Did you know where Lehi landed in America? I stumbled upon its location today at lunch.

I was thinking about Jeff Holland's recent video, which made me think of Mr. Holland's Opus, which made me think of Copus, which led me to look up the Copus Massacre, which got me on a hunt for Charles Mill Lake, OH, which got me started looking at maps of the region Joseph Smith lived in, which got me to looking at old maps, which got me to looking at the Book of Mormon Geography, which got me to this website: http://www.bookofmormongeography.net/map.htm

...which makes the following claim:

Quote:
Q. Did Joseph Smith say anything about geography?
A. Yes. He did say that:


Lehi landed in the Americas a little south of the Isthmus of Darien, Panama.
Times and Seasons, vol. 3 (November 1841-October 1842), Vol. 3 No. 22 September 15, 1842 927


Of course, this made me very curious because I had never heard of such a statement by Joseph Smith. It turns out that Time and Seasons are available online: http://www.centerplace.org/history/ts in case you didn't know.

The above reference is slightly off. The statement indicating Lehi's landing point is actually on page 922 of the said vol and No. It reads:
Quote:
"FACTS ARE STUBBORN THINGS."

From an extract from "Stephens' Incidents of Travel in Central America," it will be seen that the proof of the Nephites and Lamanites dwelling on this continent, according to the account in the Book of Mormon, is developing itself in a more satisfactory way than the most sanguine believer in that revelation, could have anticipated. It certainly affords us a gratification that the world of mankind does not enjoy, to give publicity to such important developments of the remains and ruins of those might people.

When we read in the Book of Mormon that Jared and his brother came on to this continent from the confusion and scattering at the Tower, and lived here more than a thousand years, and covered the whole continent from sea to sea, with towns and cities; and that Lehi went down by the Red Sea to the great Southern Ocean, and crossed over to this land and landed a little south of the Isthmus of Darien, and improved the country according to the word of the Lord, as a branch of the house of Israel, and then read such a goodly traditionary account, as the one below, we can not but think the Lord has a hand in bringing to pass his strange act, and proving the Book of Mormon true in the eyes of all the people. The extract below, comes as near the real fact, as the four Evangelists do to the crucifixion of Jesus.-Surely "facts are stubborn things." It will be as it ever has been the world will prove Joseph Smith a true prophet by circumstantial evidence, in experiments, as they did Moses and Elijah. Now read Stephen's story:

"According to Fuentes, the chronicler of the kingdom of Guatimala [Guatemala], the kings of Quinche and Cachiquel were descended from the Toltecan Indians, who, when they came into this country, found it already inhabited by people of different nations. According to the manuscripts of Don Juan Torres, the grandson of the last king of the Quiches, which was in the possession of the lieutenant general appointed by Pedro de Alvarado, and which Fuentes says he obtained by means of Father Francis Vasques, the historian of the order of San Francis, the Toltecas themselves descended from the house of Israel, who were released by Moses from the tyranny of Pharaoh, and after crossing the Red Sea, fell into Idolatry. To avoid the reproofs of Moses, or from fear of his inflicting upon them some chastisement, they separated from him and his brethren, and under the guidance of Tanub, their chief, passed from one continent to the other, to a place which they called the seven caverns, a part of the kingdom of Mexico, where they founded the celebrated city of Tula."

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 Post subject: Re: Lehi's landing place
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:14 pm 
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This is fascinating, Z!

This must mean that Lehi landed on the Pacific side. I always assumed it was somewhere on the Atlantic shore.

Quote:
Lehi went down by the Red Sea to the great Southern Ocean, and crossed over to this land and landed a little south of the Isthmus of Darien


I had no idea. This means (I guess) that Lehi sailed (floated) down the length of the Red Sea out into the Arabian Sea and either turned East or West.

If East, he floated across the Arabian Sea, the Indian Ocean and all the way across the Pacific Ocean at it's widest part to land on the Pacific side of Panama.

If West, he floated around the Cape of Good Hope, across the Atlantic Ocean at it's widest point, around Cape Horn and up the entire Western coast of South America to land somewhere in Panama.

Either journey is amazing. Let's see Thor Heyerdahl do that.

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 Post subject: Re: Lehi's landing place
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:35 pm 
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It is stated that Lehi landed in Chile.

3) The footnotes of the editions of the Book of Mormon from 1876-1921 indicate Lehi & company landed in Chile; the description of Helaman 3:8 is explicated in the [officially sanctioned] footnotes in editions of the Book of Mormon from 1880-1920: "And it came to pass that they [the Nephites] did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land [g] southward to the land [h] northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea [i] south, to the sea [j] north, from the sea [k] west, to the sea [l] east." The footnotes provide the following identifications of these lands and bodies of water: "g, South America. h, North America. i, Atlantic, south of Cape Horn. j, Arctic, north of North America. k, Pacific. l, Atlantic." These footnotes indicate the official Church interpretation of Helaman 3:8 was that the Lamanites/Nephites covered BOTH continents of the entire western hemisphere.

viewtopic.php?p=90103#p90103



Written by Fredrick G Williams who was Joseph's scribe from 1833 to 1837. The note was found on a paper that had been separated into four sections by a line drawing. The top section contained a copy of the revelation on the parchment of John now in D&C 7. The second section has "Questions in English and answers in Hebrew", and the third section had writings titled "Characters on the book of Mormon" and "The interpretation of Languages." Two characters appear under each heading. The fourth section concerns Lehi's landing in chile. (Selected collections 1:19, Revelations Collections, Box 1, Folder 5. Original: LDS Church Archives MS 4583. )

viewtopic.php?p=240882#p240882



Notice how Zarahemla is nowhere in the final accounts. The Land of Zarahemla is further South near the Marana River (Sidon) and its headwaters are in the Land of Manti and the original Land of Nephi is further south in Chile. Joseph is reported to have said that Lehi landed at the 30' South latitude in the promised land.

viewtopic.php?p=491532#p491532

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 Post subject: Re: Lehi's landing place
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:46 pm 
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Brackite wrote:
It is stated that Lehi landed in Chile.

3) The footnotes of the editions of the Book of Mormon from 1876-1921 indicate Lehi & company landed in Chile; the description of Helaman 3:8 is explicated in the [officially sanctioned] footnotes in editions of the Book of Mormon from 1880-1920: "And it came to pass that they [the Nephites] did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land [g] southward to the land [h] northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea [i] south, to the sea [j] north, from the sea [k] west, to the sea [l] east." The footnotes provide the following identifications of these lands and bodies of water: "g, South America. h, North America. i, Atlantic, south of Cape Horn. j, Arctic, north of North America. k, Pacific. l, Atlantic." These footnotes indicate the official Church interpretation of Helaman 3:8 was that the Lamanites/Nephites covered BOTH continents of the entire western hemisphere.

http://www.mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3 ... 103#p90103



Written by Fredrick G Williams who was Joseph's scribe from 1833 to 1837. The note was found on a paper that had been separated into four sections by a line drawing. The top section contained a copy of the revelation on the parchment of John now in D&C 7. The second section has "Questions in English and answers in Hebrew", and the third section had writings titled "Characters on the book of Mormon" and "The interpretation of Languages." Two characters appear under each heading. The fourth section concerns Lehi's landing in chile. (Selected collections 1:19, Revelations Collections, Box 1, Folder 5. Original: LDS Church Archives MS 4583. )

http://www.mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3 ... 82#p240882



Notice how Zarahemla is nowhere in the final accounts. The Land of Zarahemla is further South near the Marana River (Sidon) and its headwaters are in the Land of Manti and the original Land of Nephi is further south in Chile. Joseph is reported to have said that Lehi landed at the 30' South latitude in the promised land.

http://www.mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3 ... 32#p491532


Wow! Chile is a pretty good tapir ride from upstate New York! About 5000 miles.

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Last edited by Quasimodo on Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Lehi's landing place
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:49 pm 
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I think some where in Tuscany ala Darth's Italian lgt theory.

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 Post subject: Re: Lehi's landing place
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:10 pm 
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SteelHead wrote:
I think some where in Tuscany ala Darth's Italian lgt theory.


I love Tuscany! I see the wisdom and logic behind Darth's placing the Nephites there, but how did the plates get to Palmyra?

Unless you subscribe to Tobin's theory about Star Trek like transporters, someone had to make the sea voyage.

I have so many questions. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Lehi's landing place
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:57 pm 
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This map is fun:

Map

In this case, I believe Usulatan on the Pacific is the landing site.

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 Post subject: Re: Lehi's landing place
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:17 pm 
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Quasimodo wrote:
Either journey is amazing. Let's see Thor Heyerdahl do that.

I've read his books about Ra and Kon-Tiki.
That man was a brave one !!!

Unfortunately, no TBM would rebuilt Lehi's dinghy. You Know, the Dominion over waters...
"you shall forewarn your brethren concerning these waters, that they come not in journeying upon them"
Image . no place here for TBMs...



------------------------- some pictures from H -------------------------
Image
.
Image
.
Image
.

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 Post subject: Re: Lehi's landing place
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:54 pm 
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Quasimodo wrote:

If East, he floated across the Arabian Sea, the Indian Ocean and all the way across the Pacific Ocean at it's widest part to land on the Pacific side of Panama.



Would have caught the Japanese current northward and sailed from Canada down to Panama. Or perhaps camped near Malibu and practiced the Zen of surfing.

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 Post subject: Re: Lehi's landing place
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:14 am 
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So we know the exact place they landed but still we cannot find a single solitary trace of a Nephite nor a Lamanite. Go figure.

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 Post subject: Re: Lehi's landing place
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:44 am 
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Bazooka wrote:
So we know the exact place they landed but still we cannot find a single solitary trace of a Nephite nor a Lamanite. Go figure.

Where can't we find a single solitary trace?



Quote:
“When did you say we couldn't find you guilty?”
“I didn't say you couldn't find me guilty, sir.”
“When?”
“When what, sir?”
“When didn't you say we couldn't find you guilty?”
“Late last night in the latrine, sir.”
“Is that the only time you didn't say it?”
“No, sir. I always didn't say you couldn't find me guilty, sir. What I did say to Yossarian was--”
“Nobody asked you what you did say to Yossarian. We asked you what you didn't say to him. We're not at all interested in what you did say to Yossarian. Is that clear?”
“Yes, sir.”
“Then we'll go on. What did you say to Yossarian?”
“I said to him, sir, that you couldn't find me guilty of the offense with which I am charged and still be faithful to the cause of...”
“Of what? You're mumbling.”
“Stop mumbling.”
“Yes, sir.”
“And mumble 'sir' when you do.”

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 Post subject: Re: Lehi's landing place
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:49 am 
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ludwigm wrote:

Quote:
“When did you say we couldn't find you guilty?”
“I didn't say you couldn't find me guilty, sir.”
“When?”
“When what, sir?”
“When didn't you say we couldn't find you guilty?”
“Late last night in the latrine, sir.”
“Is that the only time you didn't say it?”
“No, sir. I always didn't say you couldn't find me guilty, sir. What I did say to Yossarian was--”
“Nobody asked you what you did say to Yossarian. We asked you what you didn't say to him. We're not at all interested in what you did say to Yossarian. Is that clear?”
“Yes, sir.”
“Then we'll go on. What did you say to Yossarian?”
“I said to him, sir, that you couldn't find me guilty of the offense with which I am charged and still be faithful to the cause of...”
“Of what? You're mumbling.”
“Stop mumbling.”
“Yes, sir.”
“And mumble 'sir' when you do.”


That has to be from Catch-22...GREAT film !


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 Post subject: Re: Lehi's landing place
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:04 am 
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Arrakis wrote:
That has to be from Catch-22.

It doesn't have to be.

It is.

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 Post subject: Re: Lehi's landing place
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:12 pm 
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I'll have to check with DarthJ, but I think the following image might be what Lehi's vessel looked like:

[#img] http://www.gutenberg.org/files/33098/33 ... s/fig9.png[/img]

Or...

[#img] http://www.gutenberg.org/files/33098/33 ... /fig11.png[/img]

Or...

[#img] http://www.gutenberg.org/files/33098/33 ... /fig12.png[/img]

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 Post subject: Re: Lehi's landing place
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:23 pm 
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How come Joseph, during Zion's Camp... put his staff to the ground in Missouri and said that was the site of the city of Manti, the southernmost city of the Nephite Civilization?

I've got to work on getting this stuff right. I think my enish go dosh or something is messed up.

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 Post subject: Re: Lehi's landing place
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:35 pm 
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ZelphtheGreat wrote:
How come Joseph, during Zion's Camp... put his staff to the ground in Missouri and said that was the site of the city of Manti, the southernmost city of the Nephite Civilization?

I've got to work on getting this stuff right. I think my enish go dosh or something is messed up.

This is an excellent question. Likely, we can only guess at the reason. I have a suspicion that Lehi really landed in the Isthmus of Corinth.

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 Post subject: Re: Lehi's landing place
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:15 am 
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So is Catch 22 funny on the other side of the Atlantic as well?

Somebody should have burned the film before release.


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 Post subject: Re: Lehi's landing place
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:25 am 
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zeezrom wrote:
ZelphtheGreat wrote:
How come Joseph, during Zion's Camp... put his staff to the ground in Missouri and said that was the site of the city of Manti, the southernmost city of the Nephite Civilization?

I've got to work on getting this stuff right. I think my enish go dosh or something is messed up.

This is an excellent question. Likely, we can only guess at the reason. I have a suspicion that Lehi really landed in the Isthmus of Corinth.


It's obvious! Here is Zarahemla, just up the road from the Isthmus of Corinth.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Lehi's landing place
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:28 am 
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How about Vietnam, Korea or Kamchatka?

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 Post subject: Re: Lehi's landing place
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:48 am 
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SteelHead wrote:
How about Vietnam, Korea or Kamchatka?


Geographical/archeological evidences in the New World are admittedly sketchy. OTOH, there are some interesting things going in favor of the BofM over in the Old World.

http://www.amazon.com/Journey-Faith-Inc ... cr_pr_pb_t

For those that my not be aware of this resource.

Regards,
MG


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 Post subject: Re: Lehi's landing place
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:36 am 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
Geographical/archeological evidences in the New World are admittedly sketchy.


They are not sketchy, they are non-existent. Nothing found so far supports Book of Mormon histories. We know so much about history in the Americas and find out so much more every day. There just isn't any archeological evidence of any sort that's supports in any way the Book of Mormon.

mentalgymnast wrote:
OTOH, there are some interesting things going in favor of the BofM over in the Old World.

http://www.amazon.com/Journey-Faith-Inc ... cr_pr_pb_t

For those that my not be aware of this resource.

Regards,
MG


Could you give a quick summary of the information in the DVD?

Thanks!

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