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 Post subject: Re: New Book of Abraham video
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:33 pm 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
Tobin you do realize that given a winding measurement (one circumference) at the beginning of a roll one can determine precisely the diameter of the scroll at that point, right?
I understand that just fine. However, there are assumptions here that you may not be aware of. First, do you really have the beginning of the roll and not some other location within the scroll? How is the scroll wound? Is it wound like a toilet paper roll for example? There are other winding possibilities. What is the delta between each winding (you take a sample of the first few windings) and are they reasonably consistent with how tightly the material can be wound due to a number of factors (i.e. the thickness, rigidity, etc. of the material). And it still won't tell you how many actual windings are within. It could potentially tell you the upper limit (provided all your assumptions are actually true). When they aren't, they can give you clearly incorrect results as I've pointed out already.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:52 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: New Book of Abraham video
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:32 pm 
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Tobin wrote:
I understand that just fine. However, there are assumptions here that you may not be aware of. First, do you really have the beginning of the roll and not some other location within the scroll? How is the scroll wound? Is it wound like a toilet paper roll for example? There are other winding possibilities. What is the delta between each winding (you take a sample of the first few windings) and are they reasonably consistent with how tightly the material can be wound due to a number of factors (i.e. the thickness, rigidity, etc. of the material). And it still won't tell you how many actual windings are within. It could potentially tell you the upper limit (provided all your assumptions are actually true). When they aren't, they can give you clearly incorrect results as I've pointed out already.


Let’s use the Hor scroll and Gee’s use of the Hoffmann formula to answer your questions.
Gee calculated the outer most winding at 3.84 inches long (9.7 CM) which gives a diameter of 1.3 inches. The Hoffmann formula (which Gee used) allows for a minimum winding length of 2.5 cm at the end (interior) of the roll which is about .3” diameter. So that means we have an effective diameter of about 1” in which to wind the Hor scroll. In order to reach a length of 41’ inside a 1.3 diameter roll there would need to be about 220 windings, which means if you were to look on the edge of such a roll there would be 220 edges on each side of an axis through the middle of the roll. In order for that to be possible the papyri used would have to be the thickness of the average hair and rolled without any air space in between layers.

Now feel free to introduce any irregularities and assumptions you wish, but in doing so you are only limiting how long the roll can be because those irregularities take up space which means a shorter roll. Like I said, Gee’s length is physically impossible given what we know about the Hor scroll.

By the way, your question about whether or not we have the beginning of the roll shows a massive disconnect from what the Book of Abraham says about the scroll itself, and it is also irrelevant to the length of the scroll from facsimilie#1 to the inner end of the scroll, which is the question at hand.

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 Post subject: Re: New Book of Abraham video
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:03 pm 
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Fence Sitter,

I read an exchange on Mormon Dialogue about "Cook and Smith" and a guy going by "Mortal Man" concerning the measurement and the Hoffmann Formula. If I read it correctly, someone published their paper and wondered if Schryver published a rebuttal. In other words, has their been a clear answer to how long the original scroll was and how much is missing?
Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: New Book of Abraham video
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:07 pm 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
Let’s use the Hor scroll and Gee’s use of the Hoffmann formula to answer your questions.
Gee calculated the outer most winding at 3.84 inches long (9.7 CM) which gives a diameter of 1.3 inches. The Hoffmann formula (which Gee used) allows for a minimum winding length of 2.5 cm at the end (interior) of the roll which is about .3” diameter. So that means we have an effective diameter of about 1” in which to wind the Hor scroll. In order to reach a length of 41’ inside a 1.3 diameter roll there would need to be about 220 windings, which means if you were to look on the edge of such a roll there would be 220 edges on each side of an axis through the middle of the roll. In order for that to be possible the papyri used would have to be the thickness of the average hair and rolled without any air space in between layers.
And as I've pointed out, there are a number of assumptions going on here. What Gee calculates may simply not be accurate. If you were debating this with Gee, then you might have a point. But I'm under no obligation to accept those numbers. He may simply be using a winding that is not the outer most winding. And that does not even begin to address the problem of how the scrolls were wound.
Fence Sitter wrote:
By the way, your question about whether or not we have the beginning of the roll shows a massive disconnect from what the Book of Abraham says about the scroll itself, and it is also irrelevant to the length of the scroll from facsimilie#1 to the inner end of the scroll, which is the question at hand.
Hardly. I have addressed this before with you. I do not accept the papyrus was actually written by the hand of Abraham. These were copies (likely corrupted beyond recognition) and the Book of Abraham was likely written on clay tablets originally.

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 Post subject: Re: New Book of Abraham video
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:13 pm 
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Arrakis wrote:
In other words, has their been a clear answer to how long the original scroll was and how much is missing?
https://dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/The-Original-Length-of-the-Scroll-of-Hor.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: New Book of Abraham video
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:21 pm 
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Arrakis wrote:
Fence Sitter,

I read an exchange on Mormon Dialogue about "Cook and Smith" and a guy going by "Mortal Man" concerning the measurement and the Hoffmann Formula. If I read it correctly, someone published their paper and wondered if Schryver published a rebuttal. In other words, has their been a clear answer to how long the original scroll was and how much is missing?
Thanks


Ummm since we are not supposed to give out personal info in this forum, all I can say is that Mortal Man is Cook's evil twin. :lol:

Cook and Smith published this paper https://dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/The-Original-Length-of-the-Scroll-of-Hor.pdf in Dialogue 2010.

Gee responded with this paper http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=21&num=1&id=638 at the Maxwell Institute in 2012

and Cook rebutted Gee with this paper http://66.147.244.190/~dialogu5/wp-content/uploads/premium/Dialogue_V45N03_120.pdf in Dialgue 2012

As far as I know Will Schryver has never published anything, though his purported body of work ready to be published exceeds everything Nibley ever published.

The only clear answers have been from reputable Egyptologist (Baer & Ritner) and Cook & Smith. Overall length about five feet, missing portion about 2 feet. By the way Robert Ritner, one of the formost Egyptologist in the world (and Gee's teacher, interesting story in and of itself) references Cook and Smith's paper on the length of the papyri in his book on the Joseph Smith Papyri. The Joseph Smith Egyptian Papyri - A Complete Edition

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 Post subject: Re: New Book of Abraham video
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:29 pm 
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Gee also had a 2012 FAIR conference presentation, part of which Andrew Cook responded to in his last paper I linked. I am looking to see if there is a copy online.

On Edit: The link to Gee's Fair presentation here Book of Abraham, I Presume by John Gee

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Last edited by Fence Sitter on Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New Book of Abraham video
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:33 pm 
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Tobin wrote:
Fence Sitter wrote:
Let’s use the Hor scroll and Gee’s use of the Hoffmann formula to answer your questions.
Gee calculated the outer most winding at 3.84 inches long (9.7 CM) which gives a diameter of 1.3 inches. The Hoffmann formula (which Gee used) allows for a minimum winding length of 2.5 cm at the end (interior) of the roll which is about .3” diameter. So that means we have an effective diameter of about 1” in which to wind the Hor scroll. In order to reach a length of 41’ inside a 1.3 diameter roll there would need to be about 220 windings, which means if you were to look on the edge of such a roll there would be 220 edges on each side of an axis through the middle of the roll. In order for that to be possible the papyri used would have to be the thickness of the average hair and rolled without any air space in between layers.
And as I've pointed out, there are a number of assumptions going on here. What Gee calculates may simply not be accurate. If you were debating this with Gee, then you might have a point. But I'm under no obligation to accept those numbers. He may simply be using a winding that is not the outer most winding. And that does not even begin to address the problem of how the scrolls were wound.
Fence Sitter wrote:
By the way, your question about whether or not we have the beginning of the roll shows a massive disconnect from what the Book of Abraham says about the scroll itself, and it is also irrelevant to the length of the scroll from facsimilie#1 to the inner end of the scroll, which is the question at hand.
Hardly. I have addressed this before with you. I do not accept the papyrus was actually written by the hand of Abraham. These were copies (likely corrupted beyond recognition) and the Book of Abraham was likely written on clay tablets originally.



I appreciate you acknowledging how wrong Gee is and that you have no horse in the scroll length race since you believe the Book of Abraham was revealed. It does raise the question of why you just spent time making yourself look foolish trying to defend him. To illustrate let me quote you above.
Tobin showing he does not understand what length is measured by the winding points wrote:
He may simply be using a winding that is not the outer most winding.

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 Post subject: Re: New Book of Abraham video
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:37 pm 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
I appreciate you acknowledging how wrong Gee is and that you have no horse in the scroll length race since you believe the Book of Abraham was revealed. It does raise the question of why you just spent time making yourself look foolish trying to defend him. To illustrate let me quote you above.
I don't believe I ever expressed an interest in defending Gee. All I've ever done in this thread is point out there may be other alternatives to consider.

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 Post subject: Re: New Book of Abraham video
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:38 pm 
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A reasonable person would assume that a rearend like Tobin would know everything there is to know about toilet paper but perhaps he has no first hand experience with the stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: New Book of Abraham video
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:44 pm 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
The only clear answers have been from reputable
I can't go into details, but currently work is being done on a paper proposing that the scroll was designed as a Möbius band so the length of the missing portion is actually infinite.

Don't even get me started on the subject of Möbius toilet paper.


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 Post subject: Re: New Book of Abraham video
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:06 pm 
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Bret Ripley wrote:
Fence Sitter wrote:
The only clear answers have been from reputable
I can't go into details, but currently work is being done on a paper proposing that the scroll was designed as a Möbius band so the length of the missing portion is actually infinite.

Don't even get me started on the subject of Möbius toilet paper.

Talking about which, I love the image conjured up by the toilet paper brands that proudly proclaim that they are made with x% post-consumer waste.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:17 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:18 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: New Book of Abraham video
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:31 pm 
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Fence Sitter wrote:

Ummm since we are not supposed to give out personal info in this forum, all I can say is that Mortal Man is Cook's evil twin. :lol:

Cook and Smith published this paper https://dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/The-Original-Length-of-the-Scroll-of-Hor.pdf in Dialogue 2010.

Gee responded with this paper http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=21&num=1&id=638 at the Maxwell Institute in 2012

and Cook rebutted Gee with this paper http://66.147.244.190/~dialogu5/wp-content/uploads/premium/Dialogue_V45N03_120.pdf in Dialgue 2012

As far as I know Will Schryver has never published anything, though his purported body of work ready to be published exceeds everything Nibley ever published.

The only clear answers have been from reputable Egyptologist (Baer & Ritner) and Cook & Smith. Overall length about five feet, missing portion about 2 feet. By the way Robert Ritner, one of the formost Egyptologist in the world (and Gee's teacher, interesting story in and of itself) references Cook and Smith's paper on the length of the papyri in his book on the Joseph Smith Papyri. The Joseph Smith Egyptian Papyri - A Complete Edition


Perfect....just what I was looking for and thanks for posting the links.

Whoever "Mortal Man" is, in the MormonDiscussions threads, he's taking his critics to the woodshed. I don't believe there's anyone over there that can grasp the math.

Schryver whines a lot, at least from what I've read so far. I think he said he was going to publish but critics were treating him badly.

Here's the funniest response by Mortal Man:

Quote:
Did you read our paper? Did you check our data? What specifically is flawed?
A research paper needs to be based on more than testimony, unless it's going to the FARMS Review.

:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: New Book of Abraham video
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:46 pm 
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Is it about the lenght and diameter of an object doesn't exist?

- “If you had a brother, would he like cheese?”


viewtopic.php?p=718194#p718194

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 Post subject: Re: New Book of Abraham video
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:02 am 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
Decent summary.

He fails to mention the Charlot Haven account regarding the long scroll theory.


The account is not useful as evidence for scroll length. A layman such as Charlotte seeing a papyrus scroll and calling it simply a "long roll of manuscript" does not tell you anything about the scroll length, other than that it is presumably long compared with "manuscript" paper sizes she is familiar with. As this could just as easily describe the known contents of the Horus Scroll as Nibley's mystery scroll, it is therefore irrelevant.

Wise or not, the author's "failure" to devote time to the Charlotte Haven quote was an intentional choice, as he did not see how its implications were even pertinent to the question. [Source: I am the author's evil twin.] Nibley's quote is far more explicit about length, and is the only known "account" with truly relevant implications to the question.

If it turns out to be a bone of contention, perhaps some day the author will make a brief addendum addressing it.

Fence Sitter wrote:
Gee estimate of 42 feet is not physically possible inside a 1.3 inches diameter scroll (about the size of an empty toilet paper roll) and is indefensible. Furthermore Gee doesn't even understand the math behind the Hoffmann formula nor does he understand how Smith & Cook applied the Hoffmann formula, instead he claims they are using a different formula derived from the thickness of the papyri.


I remember reading Mr. Gee's response in FARMS last year and feeling really embarrassed for him. Here he was, the would-be challenger, and his criticisms showed a catastrophic (and public) failure to understanding some of the most basic aspects of the study's methodology and formulae, e.g. "effective thickness". Even I, a mere lay reader, had understood that much from my own reading of the paper and readily caught this fundamental mistake. Either he hadn't carefully read it, or he had and failed to understand it. (It's hard to say which is more embarrassing. I was amazed that FARMS let it go to press like that without making sure that someone, anyone, understood the paper properly first.) Then he carried this unfortunate failure over into a public presentation at FAIR. Andrew Cook's eventual response paper in Dialogue deftly exposed Mr. Gee's errors and was a thrashing that FARMS has yet to recover from. I don't know how Mr. Gee can possibly be considered a credible authority on the subject any more, at this point.

The Smith and Cook study was well thought out and rigorously executed, with sound methodology. The data set is publicly available. Still nobody at FARMS or otherwise has ever properly refuted its methodology or findings. It therefore still stands as the definitive work on the subject. (Nor has FARMS acknowledged their mistakes, as far as I know. [Correct me if I'm wrong.] Best to let past errors remain out there when they work in your favor, I suppose.)

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 Post subject: Re: New Book of Abraham video
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:19 am 
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Hi Saw Skooh and welcome!

Maybe you would be interested in a post that our own California Kid (Chris Smith) made regarding contemporary scroll length descriptions.

California Kid wrote:

There are basically three accounts that can reasonably be construed as supporting a long scroll:

1) A story attributed to Joseph F. Smith says that one of the papyrus scrolls, “when unrolled on the floor, extended through two rooms of the Mansion House.” But this quote is known only from a casual comment by Hugh Nibley, who heard it from Preston Nibley, who heard it from President Smith, who was recalling a time when he was five years old or younger. And in addition to its rather incredible provenance, it differs substantially from Hugh Nibley’s own earlier telling of the story, which had President Smith remember “Uncle Joseph” seated on the floor of the Nauvoo House (not the Mansion House) with “Egyptian manuscripts spread out all around him.” Like the “one that got away”, this tale seems to have taken on new proportions in Hugh Nibley’s memory.

2) Charlotte Haven’s account is stronger, but still not definitive evidence. Haven wrote to her mother about being shown the mummies and papyrus by Lucy Mack Smith in March, 1843. Haven related that Lucy “opened a long roll of manuscript” that she identified as “the writing of Abraham and Isaac.” Since Klaus Baer’s estimate of 60 cm for the interior portion of the Hôr scroll is hardly “long” by Egyptological standards, Haven’s report seems to imply the presence of another text following the Document of Breathing on the scroll. What we must keep in mind, however, is that Charlotte was completely ignorant of Egyptological standards. She had no referent against which to judge what constituted a “long roll”. Indeed, her use of the term “manuscript” to describe the papyrus may indicate that she evaluated the scroll’s length relative to typical nineteenth-century paper manuscripts rather than to typical Ptolemaic papyrus scrolls.

3) In my paper I provide a third piece of evidence, which as far as I know has not been cited by apologists. An 1857 summary of the contents of Wyman’s Museum mentions “papyrus scrolls,” then clarifies, “some large fragments of Egyptian papyrus scrolls, with pieratic (priestly) inscriptions, and drawings representing the judgment of the dead, many Egyptian gods and sacred animals, with certain chapters from the old Egyptian sacred books.” This reference, however, is vague, and it's unclear how large or fragmented the "scrolls" described are supposed to be.

This evidence would be enough to persuade me of the length of the missing papyrus if not for the contrary data. Several lines of evidence appear to contradict the hypothesis of a large missing Hor scroll. Briefly, they are as follows:

1) An early Egyptologist named Gustavus Seyffarth viewed the missing papyrus in 1856 and described only the Hor text and Facsimile 3. He gave no indication of another text on the scroll, and in fact explicitly denied that the scroll contained a record of Abraham.

2) Klaus Baer predicted that the missing portion of the Hor text would be around sixty centimeters. When Andrew Cook and I did our analysis of scroll geometry, our estimate of the missing length agreed almost exactly with Baer's estimate. We were actually rather shocked at how closely the two figures agreed. In fact, based on the Haven accounts and the museum catalog, I had actually expected to find the missing portion was longer than that.

I know some readers have felt I'm being too dismissive of the accounts that are favorable to a longer missing scroll, but I'm being only as dismissive as I feel the better part of the evidence requires me to be. The close agreement of Baer's estimate with our geometric analysis, coupled with Seyffarth's scholarly report on the scroll's contents, is far more specific and concrete than the vague nineteenth century references to a "long" roll or "large" fragments.

Anyway, the length of the missing portion of the scroll is pretty irrelevant from an apologetic standpoint, since there are also several lines of evidence agreeing that the extant fragments were the ones used to translate the Book of Abraham. I briefly describe that evidence in my JWHA paper.



My only response is that by leaving out the Haven account, it will immediately be used as a claim of bias against the author. I believe he/she should include it if it is possible.

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 Post subject: Re: New Book of Abraham video
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:24 am 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
Hi Saw Skooh and welcome!

Maybe you would be interested in a post that our own California Kid (Chris Smith) made regarding contemporary scroll length descriptions.


Thanks. It's good to be here. Actually, Chris Smith and his clarity of explanation was the primary muse for the creation of that video. His JWHA Journal 2011 article, which seems to be the source for the quote you offered, is cited in the video description.

Fence Sitter wrote:
My only response is that by leaving out the Haven account, it will immediately be used as a claim of bias against the author. I believe he/she should include it if it is possible.


Good to note.

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 Post subject: Re: New Book of Abraham video
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:00 am 
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Let me get this straight. Joseph receives the papyrus and begins to study the language with Cowdery and Phelps and begins a translation from the papyrus with both present. And both are obviously helping him in the translation since both are also involved in studying the language. So, joseph does the work in front of witnesses without a manuscript present and produces a fine work such as the book of abraham. How did he write it? It certainly is beyond his skill in writing if we go by his letters to his wife. And was Phelps in on the 'fraud' too? We are developing quite a number of conspirators. I think so far we have at least 15 people now if we include the 11 witnesses to the book of Mormon.

The book of abraham is a fine piece of writing and very interesting. Someone had to write it. Who did it if it were not inspired or translated? I see no explanation from the video.

Now about the video. It seems to be onesided like much on MormonThink. I think that we can now see that these people on this website wish members to doubt their faith. I felt that I was listening to the character Data on a star trek episode.

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