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 Post subject: Larsen Puts Interpreter on Notice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:23 am 
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The following message was posted to Facebook:

John Larsen wrote:
To all and Sundry:

The term "Mormon" can rightfully be applied to followers of the Mormon faith and parallels such terms as "Catholic" or "Jewish". Because of this, the term "anti-Mormon" can parallel the meaning of "anti-Semite" and implies bigotry, hatred, or prejudice against a culture or people.

Any identification of me as an "anti-Mormon" in a published, printed or posted work will be considered libel and defamation. I will be pursuing civil legal action against any such publications.

Kindly remove all such references immediately.

John Larsen


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 Post subject: Re: Larsen Puts Interpreter on Notice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:31 am 
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Has "Interpreter" published something that calls John Larsen an "anti-mormon'?

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 Post subject: Re: Larsen Puts Interpreter on Notice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:33 am 
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I'm sorry, Larson left the Church some seven years ago, correct? So then, he would simply fall within the class "apostate," and not "NOM," no?

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Last edited by Droopy on Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Larsen Puts Interpreter on Notice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:33 am 
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Bazooka wrote:
Has "Interpreter" published something that calls John Larsen an "anti-mormon'?


Yes, it has. The hit piece does just that.


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 Post subject: Re: Larsen Puts Interpreter on Notice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:34 am 
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Droopy wrote:
What a jackass.


I agree that it is unlikely to go anywhere, but I would like to hear from actual attorneys about the whys and wherefores.

No offense.


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 Post subject: Re: Larsen Puts Interpreter on Notice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:36 am 
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Because certain people on the Internet have started posting and discussing extracts of Gregory L. Smith’s review of Mormon Stories without his permission, we have decided to post the article now, a bit ahead of schedule. It is in its final stage of editing, and still has to undergo a final proofreading and correlation of footnotes. This will be completed in the next few days, after which these files will be updated with the final version.
The first article, Gregory L. Smith, “Dubious ‘Mormon’ Stories,” is the review originally prepared for inclusion in the Mormon Studies Review in the spring of 2012.
The second article, “The Return of the Unread Review,” is Greg Smith’s careful analysis of the course of events surrounding the ‘Dehlin Affair.’


I'm guessing the editor is frantically 'editing' as we speak....

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 Post subject: Re: Larsen Puts Interpreter on Notice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:43 am 
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Is John Larson an "anti-Mormon"?

http://mormonexpression.com/blogs/

A perusal of his own writings, especially at length, will disabuse anyone of any notion that the term "anti-Mormon" does not apply as much to John Larson as to Ed Decker, Walter Martin, the Toscanos, the Tanners, Scratch, Shades, Harmony, Toronto, Jason, or D. Michael Quinn.

And, as usual for the those who have apostatized from the Church but are still active and who accept callings - including callings to teach other Latter-day Saints - Larson moves among his fellow church members in sheepskin:

Quote:
Recently I was asked to give a talk in church. When I first started this blog I was the elder’s quorum teacher and thought it would be neat to post all the “skeptical” stuff I was surreptitiously teaching the elders.


Big Al may have views similar to Larson's. Think so?

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Last edited by Droopy on Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Larsen Puts Interpreter on Notice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:46 am 
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Kishkumen wrote:
The following message was posted to Facebook:

John Larsen wrote:
To all and Sundry:

The term "Mormon" can rightfully be applied to followers of the Mormon faith and parallels such terms as "Catholic" or "Jewish". Because of this, the term "anti-Mormon" can parallel the meaning of "anti-Semite" and implies bigotry, hatred, or prejudice against a culture or people.

Any identification of me as an "anti-Mormon" in a published, printed or posted work will be considered libel and defamation. I will be pursuing civil legal action against any such publications.

Kindly remove all such references immediately.

John Larsen


Larson is going to have a problem. There are huge First Amendment protections to the Interpreter's statements, both freedom of speech and freedom of religion. A quasi-religious organization has the right to declare somebody an anti-religionist, and the government has no power to award damages to somebody who has suffered a religious slight. (I realize there are published cases that try and get around this sort of First Amendment protection, but they are few.)


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 Post subject: Re: Larsen Puts Interpreter on Notice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:48 am 
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Yahoo Bot wrote:
Larson is going to have a problem. There are huge First Amendment protections to the Interpreter's statements, both freedom of speech and freedom of religion. A quasi-religious organization has the right to declare somebody an anti-religionist, and the government has no power to award damages to somebody who has suffered a religious slight. (I realize there are published cases that try and get around this sort of First Amendment protection, but they are few.)

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 Post subject: Re: Larsen Puts Interpreter on Notice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:50 am 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Droopy wrote:
What a jackass.


I agree that it is unlikely to go anywhere, but I would like to hear from actual attorneys about the whys and wherefores.

No offense.



None taken.

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I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell


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 Post subject: Re: Larsen Puts Interpreter on Notice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:51 am 
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Droopy wrote:
What a jackass. He has no standing whatsoever. What a petulant little thug. Typical. These NOM's are a delicate, fragile, sensitive lot, aren't they?


And then Droopy blew a gasket and was taken away in a white jacket while foaming at the mouth, "NOMS! NOMS EVERYWHERE! NOMS!"

NOM is the new witch hunt for the apologists. How dare NOMS have differing opinions or issues with the Cult? How dare they even come out and say they have differences. Fall in line or be accused of being delicate, fragile and sensitive - and then targeted with hit pieces.

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 Post subject: Re: Larsen Puts Interpreter on Notice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:52 am 
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Mr. Larsen might find Hadnot v. Shaw and McNair v. Worldwide Church of God interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Larsen Puts Interpreter on Notice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:56 am 
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Infymus wrote:

And then Droopy blew a gasket and was taken away in a white jacket while foaming at the mouth, "NOMS! NOMS EVERYWHERE! NOMS!"


Anti Mormons have long been notorious, indeed, since the 19th century, for a rather mean-spirited desire to remove from LDS the constitutional liberties they themselves enjoy.

Its a long and sordid tale, and the mentality continues to live on.

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NOM is the new witch hunt for the apologists.


I'm not aware of any such concept as "apologist witch hunt."

Quote:
How dare NOMS have differing opinions or issues with the Cult? How dare they even come out and say they have differences. Fall in line or be accused of being delicate, fragile and sensitive - and then targeted with hit pieces.


Let them! Bring it on! I can never get enough. Let the arena of ideas boil with activity. Notice, however, that it is John Larson who is threatening to silence personal opinion about his opinions and their philosophical taxonomy, not me, nor any other apologist (that I'm aware of).

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- Thomas Sowell


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 Post subject: Re: Larsen Puts Interpreter on Notice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:00 pm 
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Yahoo Bot wrote:
Larson is going to have a problem. There are huge First Amendment protections to the Interpreter's statements, both freedom of speech and freedom of religion. A quasi-religious organization has the right to declare somebody an anti-religionist, and the government has no power to award damages to somebody who has suffered a religious slight. (I realize there are published cases that try and get around this sort of First Amendment protection, but they are few.)

Glad our first lawyer has weighed in (hello again, Bob). This is kind of what I was thinking.

I don't like this at all. I don't like it when apologists try to shut down public discourse with threats of frivolous legal actions, and I don't have any more respect for it when critics and ex-Mormons do it.

I sympathize with John's desire to not be termed "anti-Mormon." There is a subset of apologists and regular members that is willing to hurl this charged term at anyone and everyone they do not like. Because of this, I very much feel that the word "anti-Mormon" has gone the way of "cult" as far as its usefulness in discussing Mormonism goes.

I vehemently dislike it when "Jerks for Jesus" apologists and "nothing-wavering" Bloggernacle types call me "anti-Mormon," and I've routinely challenged these people to back up their use of the label (nothing but *crickets* so far), but I've never threatened to sue anyone over it.

Lawsuits are probably not the way to remedy this problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Larsen Puts Interpreter on Notice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:10 pm 
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Yahoo Bot wrote:
Larson is going to have a problem. There are huge First Amendment protections to the Interpreter's statements, both freedom of speech and freedom of religion. A quasi-religious organization has the right to declare somebody an anti-religionist, and the government has no power to award damages to somebody who has suffered a religious slight. (I realize there are published cases that try and get around this sort of First Amendment protection, but they are few.)


Thanks, Bot.


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 Post subject: Re: Larsen Puts Interpreter on Notice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:11 pm 
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So, I wonder if calling someone an anti-Semite is similarly protected free speech.


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 Post subject: Re: Larsen Puts Interpreter on Notice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:17 pm 
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MsJack wrote:
I sympathize with John's desire to not be termed "anti-Mormon."


I don't. Larson is a public intellectual who makes public commentary on things Mormon, and, given what I've seen thus far on his own website, his overall position and those of his contributors fall easily within the realm of "anti-Mormon" (he is against and in opposition to Mormonism).

Secondly, in an open, democratic marketplace of ideas, while we get to define ourselves as we wish, we do not get to control others who may see inconsistencies or outright subterfuge in those self-descriptions, and propose alternate intellectual taxonomies.

Many leftists think Nazism and Fascism are "right wing." Most conservatives/libertarians claim that Nazism and Fascism are actually phenomena of the Left. This debate, as with many others, over core definitions of terms and fundamental premises, has being going on for a long time, but as of yet, I haven't seen anyone suing anybody because one side doesn't agree with the definitions of the other side by the other side. They continue to argue it out, but should this kind of thing end up in court?

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- Thomas Sowell


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 Post subject: Re: Larsen Puts Interpreter on Notice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:19 pm 
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Droopy wrote:
I don't. Larson is a public intellectual who makes public commentary on things Mormon, and, given what I've seen thus far on his own website, his overall position and those of his contributors fall easily within the realm of "anti-Mormon" (he is against and in opposition to Mormonism).


That would have been a decent post if it had stopped right there.


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 Post subject: Re: Larsen Puts Interpreter on Notice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:26 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
So, I wonder if calling someone an anti-Semite is similarly protected free speech.


As I understand it, calling someone an anti-Semite, a Nazi, a fascist, a racist, sexist, homophobe, or any other "obe," "ism" or "ist" is all protected speech, under normal circumstances in which these labels are used to catagorize a body of beliefs or even just hurled as insults.

As I understand American liable law, the line is crossed, not when I label you a Nazi, but when I claim that you actually are a Nazi - a member of a Nazi cult or movement - or, in other words, I don't just label you, but make an empirical claim that either is or is not the case (You really are a member of a clandestine Hamas cell making bombs to ship to Israel. That's a long way from calling you a bigot).

It also has to be malicious, and not a sincere opinion (I must be labeling Larson as "anti-Mormon," not because I really think his positions can legitimately be understood in that light, but to smear his reputation publicly).

I'm not even sure how this could be construed as a smear or defamation. What, after all, is the problem with being "anti-Mormon"? Lot's of people are anti-something: Republican, Democrat, Catholic, Protestant, capitalist, socialist, Justine Bieber etc., and pro-other things. How does all of this end up in court?

And Larson is free, in a free, open, free speech-based society to argue his case until the cows come home. He can write a three volume set on why he should not be considered an anti-Mormon. Others can write books on why he should.

But court?

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- Thomas Sowell


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 Post subject: Re: Larsen Puts Interpreter on Notice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:28 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:

That would have been a decent post if it had stopped right there.


You disagree with this statement?

Quote:
Secondly, in an open, democratic marketplace of ideas, while we get to define ourselves as we wish, we do not get to control others who may see inconsistencies or outright subterfuge in those self-descriptions, and propose alternate intellectual taxonomies.

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Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

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I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell


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 Post subject: Re: Larsen Puts Interpreter on Notice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:31 pm 
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Droopy wrote:
He has no standing whatsoever.


Yes, he does, because he is claiming to have a personal interest at stake. Standing is a separate issue from whether you have a cognizable cause of action.

Quote:
What a petulant little thug. Typical. These NOM's are a delicate, fragile, sensitive lot, aren't they?


Yep. Every single person who still goes to church but doesn't necessarily believe the Church is true is a disciple of John Larsen. Every last one of them.

Quote:
You cannot sue someone for liable or defamation for opinions or choice of language in usage of terms in explicating and elucidating one's opinions. You cannot sue anyone for liable or defamation for labeling or categorizing anyone as anything pro or anti unless in doing so, you could somehow show that the person doing so was doing so with the intent to damage the public reputation of another person and that the label was not an honest opinion or perspective but a disingenuous or mendacious statement made for personal, venal reasons.

If taken seriously, Larson's position here would void literally the entire First Amendment and shut down all political, religious, academic, and journalistic speech in toto.


No, that's not the real problem. The real problem is that you would be asking a court to determine whether rejecting some or all of your church's truth claims and or teachings make you a bigot. Adjudicating that claim would excessively entangle a court with religious precepts, and the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment doesn't permit a court to do that.

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It also has to be malicious


No, Droopy, actual malice is only a scienter requirement if you are defaming a public figure. John Larsen is a public figure, but you are making sweeping, inaccurate statements about defamation in general, not just him in particular.

Quote:
And Larson is free, in a free, open, free speech-based society to argue his case until the cows come home. He can write a three volume set on why he should not be considered an anti-Mormon. Others can write books on why he should.


And between you and Greg Smith, it seems that this body of work will be voluminous indeed.


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