Joseph Smith and Martin Luther King: compare and contrast

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Chap
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Joseph Smith and Martin Luther King: compare and contrast

Post by Chap »

Kishkumen wrote:

This deserves its own thread.

Infymus wrote:
Martin Luther King was a seriously flawed man. The plagiarism in his doctoral dissertation, the adulteries, the blurring of his Civil Rights mission and his dalliance with various leftist causes in his latter years — these were and are unfortunate.

January 21, 2013 By danpeterson

Wow.

The Dude wrote:I thought it was amazing how much the person called "teddyaware", quoted in the OP, sounds like DCP's blog post. They would get along real well, I think.

Yea, the bowl of quasi-political/religious douchebags is filled and ready to be flushed.

It would be really interesting to see a comparative evaluation of Smith and King from the points of view of:

1. Being a seriously flawed man.

2. Plagiarism.

3. Sexual immorality.

4. Blurring of mission and dalliance with political causes in later years.

And finally:

5. Positive difference made to the lives of millions of human beings.

Let's go.
Zadok:
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Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.

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Re: Joseph Smith and Martin Luther King: compare and contras

Post by Willy Law »

I’m pleased (it’s the only substantial thing about his presidency that pleases me) that America has broken the color barrier in electing a black president. (Well, 50% black, anyway.)

At least he is glad that a half black got elected.


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Chap
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Re: Joseph Smith and Martin Luther King: compare and contras

Post by Chap »

Daniel Peterson wrote:I’m pleased (it’s the only substantial thing about his presidency that pleases me) that America has broken the color barrier in electing a black president. (Well, 50% black, anyway.)


There is a reason why most of the black people Daniel Peterson meets are only a certain percentage black. And that is largely, to put it bluntly, because many white men who owned slaves felt free to rape the women or coerce them into sex whenever the fancy took them.

This was expressed a little more tactfully by a group of black men in 1863 New Orleans, when General Butler was asking himself whether blacks would fight well if he formed a regiment of them. They answered:

"General, we come of a fighting race. Our fathers were brought here slaves because they were captured in war, and in hand-to-hand fights too. We are willing to fight. Pardon me, General, but the only cowardly blood we have got in our veins is the white blood."

Sneers from a white guy aimed at black people with some white blood are out of place, even when rape is not the reason, as it is not in Obama's case. Note however, that at Obama's first inauguration he referred specifically to the fact that his wife had a share of the blood of white slave-owners in her own veins. We know how that got there.

Now can we get back to comparing Joseph Smith and Martin Luther King?
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
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That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.

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Re: Joseph Smith and Martin Luther King: compare and contras

Post by Darth J »

Here's a fun game that I like to call, "Say Something Just As Meaningful!"

An unfailing disciple of the religious right who takes WND articles at face value wrote: As a quasi-libertarian.....


"As a quasi-Jesuit....."

"As a quasi-astronaut....."

"As a quasi-defensive back for the San Francisco 49ers....."

As a quasi-libertarian, I have reservations about the Civil Rights legislation of the 1960s, to say nothing of quotas and affirmative action. I believe that people have the right to be stupid, and even, within very broad legal limits, to be morally misguided. For example, I think people should be able to rent or not to rent, to sell or not to sell, for any reasons they choose, including very bad ones. Which means that I believe people have the right to refuse service to blacks, Irish, Jews, Catholics, and/or, yes, Mormons. (My hope would be that the market would eventually discipline such moral obtuseness, since Catholic money and Mormon money and blacks’ money is, equally, money, and since, in a competitive economy, people who turn down the money of whole large groups and alienate large sectors of their potential market will, in the long term, lose or at least marginalize themselves. But even if they survive and prosper, and even in the short term, they have that right.)

But that said, again, as a quasi-libertarian I think it obscene and immoral that governments supported segregation and Jim Crow laws. I support freedom of association, freedom of economic transaction, free exchange. Freedom. I’m glad that those laws have all been overturned. The government has utterly no business discriminating among its citizens on the basis of ethnicity or religious faith.


"As a quasi-mercantilist, I have reservations about the wanton slaughter of livestock and excessive meat consumption, to say nothing of animal cruelty. I believe that animals have the right to be free of needless suffering, to be treated humanely, and that the way we treat animals says something about our own humanity. For example, I think that keeping livestock in small pens where the only purpose of their existence is being raised to be butchered, or force-feeding animals to fatten them up for their meat, is morally questionable.

But that said, again, as a quasi-mercantilist, I love veal."
Last edited by Darth J on Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Joseph Smith and Martin Luther King: compare and contras

Post by Darth J »

Further to the OP:

Greg Smith, valiant apologist for Joseph Smith, Jr. wrote: It is beyond debate that Martin Luther King plagiarized and was a serial adulterer. It would unquestionably have been better for him and his family if he had not been. These acts even threatened the very real good he did and attempted to do, because if they had been public knowledge at the time, it would have allowed opponents of racial equality before the law to discredit him on an _ad hominem_ basis, and it would have given people of good will reason to distrust him (if a man will cheat on his wife, who can trust him?)

One can deplore such behavior and judge such behavior as wrong without also condemning the actor, or dismissing the good he did for millions. Fortunately, only God will decide how such things weigh out in the balance. But God does not expect us to act as if or say that acts like academic dishonesty or infidelity are of no moral consequence.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterso ... ment-17880


Greg Smith has, I think, pretty much killed, buried, and nailed the coffin shut on my irony meter, and then thrown the coffin into Mount Doom, before dropping Mt Doom under the continental plates.

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Re: Joseph Smith and Martin Luther King: compare and contras

Post by Darth J »

Chap wrote:There is a reason why most of the black people Daniel Peterson meets are only a certain percentage black. And that is largely, to put it bluntly, because many white men who owned slaves felt free to rape the women or coerce them into sex whenever the fancy took them.


Putting on my why-couldn't-blacks-hold-the-priesthood apologist hat.....

Silly Chap. Those white men weren't coercing those women. They owned them. Do you "coerce" your dog to go for a walk? Do you "coerce" a sandwich in your refrigerator to be lunch?

It wasn't about rape. It was about property.

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Re: Joseph Smith and Martin Luther King: compare and contras

Post by Sammy Jankins »

As a quasi-libertarian, I have reservations about the Civil Rights legislation of the 1960s, to say nothing of quotas and affirmative action. I believe that people have the right to be stupid, and even, within very broad legal limits, to be morally misguided. For example, I think people should be able to rent or not to rent, to sell or not to sell, for any reasons they choose, including very bad ones.


Well expect when it comes to gay marriage then we should force our version of morality onto others.

Also in response to criticism from The Narrator, Dan Peterson outed the Narrators IRL identity in the comments section.
Last edited by Sammy Jankins on Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Joseph Smith and Martin Luther King: compare and contras

Post by Darth J »

Someone calling herself 'Bonnie' wrote:
He was killed a couple of years before my birth, but my mother used to say that it came as no surprise to her that he was shot. It wasn’t what he said, it was how he said it, nose to nose with those who hated him, jeering, she used to say.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterso ... ment-17930


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Re: Joseph Smith and Martin Luther King: compare and contras

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Daniel Peterson wrote: Incidentally, though: The plagiarism and the serial adulteries are, so far as I’m aware, not denied by any serious commentator, right or left. (Just for the record.) I’m sorry that it so offends certain people to have them mentioned, such that even an expression of admiration is taken as an attack that merits insults in response. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterso ... ment-17968


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Re: Joseph Smith and Martin Luther King: compare and contras

Post by The Dude »

Incidentally, though: both men's plagarism and serial adulteries aside, Martin Luther King has had a greater positive impact on humanity than Joseph Smith.
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Re: Joseph Smith and Martin Luther King: compare and contras

Post by bcspace »

I call fake on one through four since there is no evidence for such.
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Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
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Re: Joseph Smith and Martin Luther King: compare and contras

Post by Darth J »

bcspace wrote:I call fake on one through four since there is no evidence for such.


I call fake on 2 through 10, as there is no evidence for such.

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Re: Joseph Smith and Martin Luther King: compare and contras

Post by Chap »

The Dude wrote:Incidentally, though: both men's plagarism and serial adulteries aside, Martin Luther King has had a greater positive impact on humanity than Joseph Smith.


Contrast point:

Adultery: Did Martin Luther King tell people that he had to go to bed with those women because God commanded him to? Joseph Smith even told the women that he had to go to bed with them because God commanded him to.

Plagiarism: Did Martin Luther King copy pages out of the King James translation of the Book of Isaiah into his speeches and writings, while telling people that he had in fact translated them himself from long-lost documents in Reformed Egyptian? Joseph Smith did.

Blurring of mission and political involvement in later life: Did Martin Luther King and his followers take over a town, get himself elected mayor, and then command the destruction of a printing press that had published material critical of his secret adultery? Joseph Smith did.

Mode of assassination: Did Martin Luther King fire back at his assassin, after having summoned an armed band of his followers to come and rescue him? Joseph Smith did.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.

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Re: Joseph Smith and Martin Luther King: compare and contras

Post by Analytics »

Darth J wrote:Greg Smith has, I think, pretty much killed, buried, and nailed the coffin shut on my irony meter, and then thrown the coffin into Mount Doom, before dropping Mt Doom under the continental plates.

QFT, LOL.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

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Re: Joseph Smith and Martin Luther King: compare and contras

Post by Sammy Jankins »

I have no problem with discussing early Mormon polygamy.

The difference is that, while everybody agrees that Martin Luther King’s plagiarism and adulteries represented moral failures on his part — I’m aware of not a single exception — not everybody agrees that plural marriage represented a moral failure on the part of Joseph Smith. That is, in fact, a hotly debated issue.

Please try to calm down and be reasonable.


http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2013/01/a-hasty-note-on-martin-luther-king-day.html#comment-18138

Yes, because some people really do believe that the all-knowing, all-powerful transcendent God really did want Joseph to take teenage brides, marry other men's wives, and lie to his his wife Emma and the general membership about it.
Yep, hotly debated.
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Re: Joseph Smith and Martin Luther King: compare and contras

Post by bcspace »

Martin Luther King embraced socialism (even while trying to distance himself from Rustin) whereas Joseph Smith refuted socialism in his Law of Consecration doctrine.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
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Re: Joseph Smith and Martin Luther King: compare and contras

Post by Chap »

bcspace wrote:Martin Luther King embraced socialism (even while trying to distance himself from Rustin) whereas Joseph Smith refuted socialism in his Law of Consecration doctrine.


Yup. That is a really, really big plus point for Joseph Smith against Martin Luther King so far as most people are concerned. Especially black people. I mean, with them any whiff of socialism would knock King right out of the running. They know that socialism would deprive them of their property, and that their investments would go right down, since the government would redistribute their money to poor people.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.

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Re: Joseph Smith and Martin Luther King: compare and contras

Post by Darth J »

I have no problem with discussing early Mormon polygamy.

The difference is that, while everybody agrees that Martin Luther King’s plagiarism and adulteries represented moral failures on his part — I’m aware of not a single exception — there are people who spend lots of time and resources making excuses for Joseph Smith.

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Re: Joseph Smith and Martin Luther King: compare and contras

Post by bcspace »

Yup. That is a really, really big plus point for Joseph Smith against Martin Luther King so far as most people are concerned. Especially black people. I mean, with them any whiff of socialism would knock King right out of the running. They know that socialism would deprive them of their property, and that their investments would go right down, since the government would redistribute their money to poor people.


And the poor remain enslaved by poverty and an entitlement mentality which means those handing out the money are buying their votes.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
A lesson on 'Faggotry' for Kevin Graham; a legitimately descriptive and even positive term used by homosexuals themselves.

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Re: Joseph Smith and Martin Luther King: compare and contras

Post by Chap »

bcspace wrote:
Yup. That is a really, really big plus point for Joseph Smith against Martin Luther King so far as most people are concerned. Especially black people. I mean, with them any whiff of socialism would knock King right out of the running. They know that socialism would deprive them of their property, and that their investments would go right down, since the government would redistribute their money to poor people.


And the poor remain enslaved by poverty and an entitlement mentality which means those handing out the money are buying their votes.


Black people are worse off than they would have been without Martin Luther King? I'd rather let them be the judges of that.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.

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Re: Joseph Smith and Martin Luther King: compare and contras

Post by Darth J »

bcspace wrote:
And the poor remain enslaved by poverty and an entitlement mentality which means those handing out the money are buying their votes.


December 2012 Ensign

After reading these scriptures together, Bishop Orellana looked at the new convert and said, “If paying tithing means that you can’t pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can’t pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing. The Lord will not abandon you.”

The next Sunday, Amado approached Bishop Orellana again. This time he didn’t ask any questions. He simply handed his bishop an envelope and said, “Bishop, here is our tithing.”

Reflecting on this experience, Bishop Orellana says, “Ever since then, they have been faithful tithe payers.” The family received some commodities from the bishops’ storehouse during their financial difficulties.


April 2005 General Conference

No bishop, no missionary should ever hesitate or lack the faith to teach the law of tithing to the poor. The sentiment of “They can’t afford to” needs to be replaced with “They can’t afford not to.”

One of the first things a bishop must do to help the needy is ask them to pay their tithing. Like the widow, if a destitute family is faced with the decision of paying their tithing or eating, they should pay their tithing. The bishop can help them with their food and other basic needs until they become self-reliant.

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