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Viking graves and DNA.

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:17 pm
by Fiannan
BBC documentary on Vikings in the British Isles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkqPEeHx ... re=related

In the third hour of the documentary some researchers tried to use male DNA markers (Y chromosome) to determine how much Viking blood there is in the British Isles. They centered on the Norwegian DNA on the coasts and islands like Shetland, The weird thing is that even in areas the Vikings from Norway controlled, including Dublin, did not show high levels of DNA markers from Norway. The researchers were surprised and later point out that they may be missing a lot of information on DNA markers from Viking settlers.

That being said I remember taking a course in college on English history. The professor dealt with the Vikings and showed a map with ancient graveyard locations. There were graveyards all over England and Scotland so we can be sure the people contributed huge amounts of DNA to the local populations while they were alive.

In the documentary they make it clear that DNA research is incomplete in so many areas even though we have a good idea of what Norway's genetic markers look like. Then again, we cannot be sure which tribal/family units actually came over and settled and in what proportions.

I just wanted to share this as many on this board treat DNA as the great indicator of who came form where and when and who they were related to. This is not the case. I know someone who is adopted and was looking into getting a DNA test to show where his ancestors came from. He was disappointed when he was informed that both the maternal and paternal tests only show lines but can miss almost all your ancestor's ethnic origins unless one has some unique marker like the "Cohen gene" which some, certainly not most, Jews have. And even then you could find Cohen genes in thousands of people in Zimbabwe (Jews built the ancient circular walled cities there) these people today show no trace of Jewish phenotypes. They look like surrounding African tribes that the colonizers intermarried with.

So if we knew what the DNA markers were for all the tribes of ancient Israel we might, just might, have a slight chance of finding a marker for the tribe Lehi came from but we have no clue. And that is just one variable that makes skeptics of the Book of Mormon who use DNA like the ultimate nail-in-the-coffin of Mormonism unconvincing in their arguments.

Re: Viking graves and DNA.

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:23 pm
by lulu
Fiannan wrote:did not show high levels of DNA markers from Norway.

But they showed some markers. See the difference?

Re: Viking graves and DNA.

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:40 pm
by DarkHelmet
The complete lack of DNA evidence is just one item in a pile of evidence against the Book of Mormon. Before any DNA studies, the evidence supported an Asian migration. The DNA evidence simply fits in perfectly with what all the previous scientific evidence already showed. None of it supports the Book of Mormon.

Re: Viking graves and DNA.

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:01 pm
by son of Ishmael
The lack of ancient Israeli DNA forces apologist away from the idea that the Americas was uninhabited when the Lehites presumably arrived. It also led them to the limited geography theory.

The next thing we will hear is that part of the Lamanite curse was the changing of their DNA. God is tricky that way.

Re: Viking graves and DNA.

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:44 pm
by Fiannan
Why would Alma make such a big deal of bieing a direct descendant of Lehi if all Nephites and Lamanies shared the same origins?

Re: Viking graves and DNA.

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:16 pm
by Bret Ripley
son of Ishmael wrote:The next thing we will hear is that part of the Lamanite curse was the changing of their DNA. God is tricky that way.
Ahem: "When God curses a people, their DNA is changed, fool." Art Bulla, March 17, 2006, on alt.religion.Mormon.

Re: Viking graves and DNA.

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:20 pm
by Darth J
Fiannan wrote:Why would Alma make such a big deal of bieing a direct descendant of Lehi if all Nephites and Lamanies shared the same origins?


Because some of the people in Lehi's party were relatives of Ishmael. The Book of Mormon accounts for people who came to America from Jerusalem circa 600 B.C.E., but were not part of Lehi's parentage.

See also: Mulekites.

There are no people mentioned in the Book of Mormon who did not come from Jerusalem, except the Jaredites, who were extinct except for one person by the time Lehi's party arrived.

Re: Viking graves and DNA.

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:27 pm
by son of Ishmael
Bret Ripley wrote:
son of Ishmael wrote:The next thing we will hear is that part of the Lamanite curse was the changing of their DNA. God is tricky that way.
Ahem: "When God curses a people, their DNA is changed, fool." Art Bulla, March 17, 2006, on alt.religion.Mormon.



Wow. I was just making that up. I didn't think someone would really say that....

Re: Viking graves and DNA.

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:20 pm
by karl61
Please read relics of eden by former BYU professor daniel fairbanks. It will help you understand DNA and migration.

Re: Viking graves and DNA.

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:21 pm
by Equality
karl61 wrote:Please read relics of eden by former BYU professor daniel fairbanks. It will help you understand DNA and migration.

Care to summarize Fairbanks' argument for us?

Re: Viking graves and DNA.

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:43 pm
by The Dude
The evidence cited in the opening post seems to support the idea that a group of refugees or invaders could transmit less genetic material to the surviving populace than expected. No one has ever contended otherwise.

Specifically, the Book of Mormon tells a completely different story about a group of colonists who filled up an empty land with their descendants. It tells a story that fits the popular thinking of Joseph Smith's time like hand in glove and explains the origins of the Native Americans. Except that it doesn't because of DNA and additional types of evidence.

Fiannan wrote:Why would Alma make such a big deal of bieing a direct descendant of Lehi if all Nephites and Lamanies shared the same origins?


Because the 19th century author of the Book of Mormon really wanted to explain the origin of the Native Americans as lost Semites, incidentally descendant from the fictional Father Lehi of Jerusalem. The character "Alma" was just a mouthpiece for the author.

Re: Viking graves and DNA.

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:20 pm
by Themis
Darth J wrote:
Fiannan wrote:Why would Alma make such a big deal of bieing a direct descendant of Lehi if all Nephites and Lamanies shared the same origins?


Because some of the people in Lehi's party were relatives of Ishmael. The Book of Mormon accounts for people who came to America from Jerusalem circa 600 B.C.E., but were not part of Lehi's parentage.

See also: Mulekites.

There are no people mentioned in the Book of Mormon who did not come from Jerusalem, except the Jaredites, who were extinct except for one person by the time Lehi's party arrived.


The story also seems to indicate the mulekites were a much larger group then those who followed King Mosiah into the wilderness.

Re: Viking graves and DNA.

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:18 pm
by moksha
I'm glad no one is suggesting that the Viking raids and conquests in England were borne from the fervid imagination of some monk, who may or may not have borrowed the purloined runes of Solomon Erikson.

Re: Viking graves and DNA.

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:08 am
by karl61
Equality wrote:
karl61 wrote:Please read relics of eden by former BYU professor daniel fairbanks. It will help you understand DNA and migration.

Care to summarize Fairbanks' argument for us?


Sorry I only have a phone to respond plus there are a lot of good reviews out there. Mitochondrial dna is used to show migration. Science books that I read report it

Re: Viking graves and DNA.

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:31 pm
by lulu
Themis wrote:
Darth J wrote:Because some of the people in Lehi's party were relatives of Ishmael. The Book of Mormon accounts for people who came to America from Jerusalem circa 600 B.C.E., but were not part of Lehi's parentage.

See also: Mulekites.

There are no people mentioned in the Book of Mormon who did not come from Jerusalem, except the Jaredites, who were extinct except for one person by the time Lehi's party arrived.


The story also seems to indicate the mulekites were a much larger group then those who followed King Mosiah into the wilderness.


I've blissfully forgotten about Mulekites, anyone what to give me the Readers Digest version?