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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:03 pm 
God

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sock puppet wrote:
Did Scott Gordon explain what title he had in mind, the one the didn't get used, the one that would accurately describe the category of his listing?



Yes he did, the slide was meant to have two titles

You are too ____ stooopid to understand that "..."= hat.
&
You are too ____ stooopid to understand that "means"=hat.


Last edited by 3sheets2thewind on Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:04 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:34 pm 
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beastie wrote:
I told this story on MAD years ago, and was heavily criticized for being too lazy to engage in due diligence before joining the church. When I pointed out that I had no resources at all, I was told that I should have searched the microfiches of the library. I pointed out that I would not have known what to look FOR, having no idea what the controversies are, and they didn't care. It was still my fault. I was lazy.


You're absolutely correct. There were NO resources here. NONE.

I can remember being thrilled to encounter even a single reference to Joseph Smith or the church in my history text books and there was once a book called "The Mormons" in our school library which was an account of the westward migration written on about a 4th grade level. It showed less attention to detail and historical accuracy than any episode of Little House on the Prairie. That was it. Our local libraries had books in the religion section which referred to the church as a "cult" in encyclopedic fashion but they were long on rhetoric and short on detail so I never could quite understand why others held the view of us which they did.

In high school, I had a teacher who delighted in harassing me with "anti-Mormon" information. He made my life hell for two years straight. I was his only Mormon student. I never took a word he taught about the church or its history as truthful which is quite ironic most of what he said was less informative and every bit as neutral as Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling.

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:36 pm 
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Blixa wrote:
mercyngrace wrote:
...help one succeed in teaching Primary or preparing a "Two-Minute Talk".



You must either be a lazy member who didn't really understand doctrine or a lying anti-mormon.

The correct term is TWO-AND-A-HALF MINUTE TALK!

Lying apostates always trying to deny that extra half minute....


LOL! My dad was a high councilor - I don't know why we even owned a book that had talks which were less than half an hour long. ;)

I can't tell you how many times I gave a 20 minute talk as a teenager because Dad and I were the only ones on the program in some branch or ward within a 50 mile radius of our stake center.

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:35 am 
God

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I live in Utah now..... There are Church programs on all kinds of subjects, history, etc. on regular TV.

Everyone knows about Polygamy.

The only people who don't know about Polygamy are "children", who have no interest in intellectual concerns, who then become teenagers and 20 somethings, who then start learning anti-mormonism in both fact and ideology, and then leave the Church and THINK they "know-it-all"....

I've just had my kids read the "introductory" book "Truth Restored", that nearly everyone in the Church has a copy of, and nearly everyone in the Church has read, usually early on in their Church experience.

IT CLEARLY AND WELL MENTIONS POLYGAMY.....

Why don't you all get a copy, and learn something??? I read it when I was 9 Years Old. What's your malfunction???

http://store.LDS.org/webapp/wcs/stores/ ... -1__195873

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:40 am 
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ldsfaqs wrote:

I've just had my kids read the "introductory" book "Truth Restored", that nearly everyone in the Church has a copy of, and nearly everyone in the Church has read, usually early on in their Church experience.

IT CLEARLY AND WELL MENTIONS POLYGAMY.....

Why don't you all get a copy, and learn something???

http://store.LDS.org/webapp/wcs/stores/ ... -1__195873


Here is the entirety of Truth Restored discussing polygamy (for a fun drinking game, take a shot every time Gordon B. Hinckley prevaricates or dissembles in his discussion of Mormon polygamy below):

"Chapter 13: Years Of Endurance," Truth Restored, (2001)

Although polygamy is no longer practiced in the Church, no account of the Church’s history can be complete without some discussion of the practice. It was first announced by Joseph Smith at Nauvoo in 1842. Many of those close to him knew of it and accepted it as a principle of divine pronouncement. However, it was not publicly taught until 1852.

In the families that practiced polygamy, each wife, with her children, occupied a separate house, or, if the wives lived in the same house, as was sometimes the case, in separate quarters. No distinction was made between either of the wives or the children. The husband provided for each family, was responsible for the education of the children, and gave both the children and their mothers the same advantages he would have given to his family under a monogamous relationship. If it was thought he could not do this, he was not permitted to enter into plural marriage.

While the practice was extremely limited—only a small minority of the families were involved—it was the kind of thing of which enemies of the Church could easily take advantage.

Reaction against the doctrine developed throughout the country, and it entered into the presidential campaign of 1860. When Lincoln was asked what he proposed to do about the Mormons, he replied, “Let them alone.” In 1862 Con-gress passed an anti-polygamy law, but it was aimed at plural marriages and not polygamous relations. Ten years later the Congress passed a bill prohibiting polygamy. It was considered unconstitutional by many people in the nation, and generally by the Mormons. A test case was brought into the courts of Utah and carried through the Supreme Court of the United States, resulting in a decision adverse to the Mormons. In the midst of this difficulty, John Taylor succeeded to the Presidency of the Church. The years that followed were truly years of endurance.

Elder Taylor was a native of England, where he had been a lay Methodist preacher. He emigrated to Canada about 1832, and heard the restored gospel preached for the first time four years later. When he joined the Church, his bold spirit, educated mind, and ready tongue made of him an outstanding advocate of the cause. He served as a missionary in Canada, in his native England, and in France.

This man selected as his motto, “The kingdom of God or nothing.” 2 He once remarked: “I do not believe in a religion that cannot have all my affections … but I believe in a religion that I can live for, or die for. …

“I would rather have God for my friend than all other influences and powers.” 3 In this spirit he defended the Church with such vigor that his friends in the Church called him “the Champion of Liberty.” He it was who was wounded when Joseph and Hyrum Smith were killed in Carthage Jail.

As the senior member of the Council of Twelve Apostles, he succeeded Brigham Young as President of the Church. It was during his administration that Church members were again made to feel the bitter hand of persecution. In 1882 the Edmunds Act was passed by Congress, making polygamy punishable by fine or imprisonment—usually imprisonment. No man who had more than one wife could act as a juror in any Utah court. In Idaho, those who were members of the Church were disfranchised. No one who admitted belief in polygamy could become a citizen.

President Taylor foresaw these difficulties. In April, 1882, he counseled the Saints: “Let us treat it [the Edmunds Act] the same as we did this morning in coming through the snow-storm—put up our coat collars … and wait till the storm subsides. …

“… There will be a storm in the United States after a while; and I want our brethren to prepare themselves for it. At the last conference … I advised all who were in debt to take advantage of the prosperous times and pay their debts; so that they might not be in bondage to anyone, and when the storm came they might be prepared to meet it.” 4

The storm broke in full fury five years later. In 1887 the Edmunds-Tucker Act gave added power to the judges who tried polygamy cases. This act also disincorporated The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which was ordered by the Supreme Court to wind up its affairs and turn its property over to the nation.

The law was administered with extreme harshness. Thousands of Church members were disfranchised. A thousand men were imprisoned because they had plural families. Homes were broken. The election machinery was taken from the hands of the people.

Under these conditions John Taylor died on July 25, 1887. He was succeeded by Wilford Woodruff.

To undertake the responsibility of Church leadership under such circumstances was no small task. Colonies of Latter-day Saints were now scattered from Canada to Mexico. Active missionary work was carried on throughout the United States, in the British Isles, in most of the nations of Europe, and in the islands of the Pacific. In spite of determined opposition, however, many converts to the faith were made in all of these missions. And yet the Church in Utah was dispossessed of its property, and most of its leaders were in prison or were facing prosecution. Under these conditions Wilford Woodruff undertook the responsibility of leadership. He was eighty years of age at the time.

Fortunately, he had been well trained to take up the reins of leadership, having joined the Church only three years after its organization. He had marched from Ohio to Missouri to aid his brethren when they were driven from Jackson County, and he had passed through the Missouri persecutions. As we have previously seen, he was a powerful missionary in England, where he had brought more than two thousand converts into the Church.

He had gone west as one of the pioneer company, and Brigham Young was in his wagon when he made the prophetic statement concerning the Salt Lake Valley, “This is the right place.” He had participated in most of the significant events connected with the building of the territory since that time.

But now, most progress had ceased under the heavy hand of law enforcement, and President Woodruff was responsible for finding a way out of the difficulty. As he struggled with the problem, he turned to the scriptures for direction.

In a revelation given to the Church in 1841, the Prophet Joseph Smith had declared as the word of the Lord, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings.” 5 Another fundamental teaching of the Church which also applied is the twelfth article of faith of the organization. It reads, “We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.”

What was to be done under the circumstances? The practice had come by revelation.

And it came to an end by the same means. After earnest prayer before the Lord, President Woodruff issued on October 6, 1890, what is known in Church history as the “Manifesto.” It declared an end to the practice of entering into plural marriage. Since that time the Church has neither practiced nor sanctioned entering into such marriages.


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:02 am 
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Darth J wrote:
And it came to an end by the same means. After earnest prayer before the Lord, President Woodruff issued on October 6, 1890, what is known in Church history as the “Manifesto.” It declared an end to the practice of entering into plural marriage. Since that time the Church has neither practiced nor sanctioned entering into such marriages.[/color]



Why does the Truth Restored pamphlet still contain such blatant lying from the Prophet?

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:43 am 
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Drifting wrote:
Why does the Truth Restored pamphlet still contain such blatant lying from the Prophet?

Because telling the truth would lead to apostasy.

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:08 am 
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ldsfaqs wrote:
I live in Utah now..... There are Church programs on all kinds of subjects, history, etc. on regular TV.

Everyone knows about Polygamy.

The only people who don't know about Polygamy are "children", who have no interest in intellectual concerns, who then become teenagers and 20 somethings, who then start learning anti-mormonism in both fact and ideology, and then leave the Church and THINK they "know-it-all"....

I've just had my kids read the "introductory" book "Truth Restored", that nearly everyone in the Church has a copy of, and nearly everyone in the Church has read, usually early on in their Church experience.

IT CLEARLY AND WELL MENTIONS POLYGAMY.....

Why don't you all get a copy, and learn something??? I read it when I was 9 Years Old. What's your malfunction???

http://store.LDS.org/webapp/wcs/stores/ ... -1__195873




The topic isn't POLYGAMY in general, it's JOSEPH SMITH'S polygamy.

See there, I used CAPS in an entirely appropriate manner.

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:30 am 
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Interestingly the Church confirms in thie introduction to the relevant section of the Institute Student Manual, that Joseph Smith kept polygamy a secret for his entire life.

Quote:
The revelation was not made public until Elder Orson Pratt, under the direction of President Brigham Young, announced it at a Church conference on 29 August 1852. The revelation was placed in the Doctrine and Covenants in 1876.


Why would the Prophet keep secret something that was essential to the Members exaltation?

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:50 am 
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Blixa wrote:
mercyngrace wrote:
...help one succeed in teaching Primary or preparing a "Two-Minute Talk".



You must either be a lazy member who didn't really understand doctrine or a lying anti-mormon.

The correct term is TWO-AND-A-HALF MINUTE TALK!

Lying apostates always trying to deny that extra half minute....


Nice catch, Blixa. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:28 pm 
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Drifting wrote:
Interestingly the Church confirms in thie introduction to the relevant section of the Institute Student Manual, that Joseph Smith kept polygamy a secret for his entire life.

Quote:
The revelation was not made public until Elder Orson Pratt, under the direction of President Brigham Young, announced it at a Church conference on 29 August 1852. The revelation was placed in the Doctrine and Covenants in 1876.


Why would the Prophet keep secret something that was essential to the Members exaltation?


1. Because it IS NOT "essential" to a Members exaltation. Only those who are under the command, which is entirely voluntary by the way, not forced like Cults do.

2. Plural Marriage i.e. "Sealings" were kept private. Polygamy had not yet started. In fact, the manual even makes that distinction. Further, why is anything kept private for a time until it is finally revealed? To train and prepare people. Nothing sinister can be claimed here, since it was always SUPPOSED to go public when the time was right.

Joseph also didn't lie when he said he and the Church wasn't practicing Polygamy. They were practicing marriage "sealings" ONLY, at the time he said those words. Sealing Ordinances are not Polygamy, whether of the marriage type or otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:30 pm 
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ldsfaqs wrote:
1. Because it IS NOT "essential" to a Members exaltation. Only those who are under the command, which is entirely voluntary by the way, not forced like Cults do.

2. Plural Marriage i.e. "Sealings" were kept private. Polygamy had not yet started. In fact, the manual even makes that distinction. Further, why is anything kept private for a time until it is finally revealed? To train and prepare people. Nothing sinister can be claimed here, since it was always SUPPOSED to go public when the time was right.

Joseph also didn't lie when he said he and the Church wasn't practicing Polygamy. They were practicing marriage "sealings" ONLY, at the time he said those words. Sealing Ordinances are not Polygamy, whether of the marriage type or otherwise.


I don't remember God saying "Thou shalt dissemble." Why do you think it's OK to lie and distort to defend "the truth"?

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:31 pm 
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ldsfaqs wrote:

1. Because it IS NOT "essential" to a Members exaltation. Only those who are under the command, which is entirely voluntary by the way, not forced like Cults do.

2. Plural Marriage i.e. "Sealings" were kept private. Polygamy had not yet started. In fact, the manual even makes that distinction. Further, why is anything kept private for a time until it is finally revealed? To train and prepare people. Nothing sinister can be claimed here, since it was always SUPPOSED to go public when the time was right.

Joseph also didn't lie when he said he and the Church wasn't practicing Polygamy. They were practicing marriage "sealings" ONLY, at the time he said those words. Sealing Ordinances are not Polygamy, whether of the marriage type or otherwise.


Rather than respond to this post (because what's the point, really?) might I instead just suggest that your defence of the Church and its practices and history would be more effective if you just put your fingers in your ears and hum "Follow the Prophet" until we all go away.

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:34 pm 
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Drifting wrote:
Rather than respond to this post (because what's the point, really?) might I instead just suggest that your defence of the Church and its practices and history would be more effective if you just put your fingers in your ears and hum "Follow the Prophet" until we all go away.


People who are willing to lie (ldsfaqs and Joseph Smith for example) to defend their beliefs cannot be reasoned with. It's sad to see how easily people give up their integrity for an ideology.

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 Post subject: Re: Scott Gordon Auto-Bio: It does not matter that I lied.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:28 pm 
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ldsfaqs wrote:
1. Because it IS NOT "essential" to a Members exaltation. Only those who are under the command, which is entirely voluntary by the way, not forced like Cults do.

How can a "command" be voluntary? In any case, this doesn't sound very voluntary to me:

Quote:
Zina [Huntington Jacobs] wrote that within months of her marriage to Jacobs, Smith sent word to her that he had "put it off till an angel with a drawn sword stood by me and told me if I did not establish that principle upon the earth I would lose my position and my life."

Likewise this also doesn't sound like someone who will take "no" for an answer:

Quote:
Brigham Young spoke in this wise, in the hearing of hundreds: He said it was time for men who were walking in other men's shoes to step out of them. "Brother Jacobs," he says, "the woman you claim for a wife does not belong to you. She is the spiritual wife of brother Joseph, sealed up to him. I am his proxy, and she, in this behalf, with her children, are my property. You can go where you please, and get another, but be sure to get one of your own kindred spirit."

"Property" doesn't get a say in what happens to it, and neither did Zina's legal husband.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zina_D._H._Young


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