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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:49 pm 
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Tobin wrote:
Themis wrote:
That won't change what's your with your statement.
As usual, nothing is wrong with my statement - just something is wrong with your mind.


You are still ignoring the other things you were asked to back up. That's usual for you. Now Newtonian physics still works just as well as they always have. Certainly it could never explain everything and other theories were needed.

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Last edited by Themis on Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:49 pm 
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Hi, Nightlion,

I had hoped to be coming to Salt Lake City this week, but that will not be happening. Soon, friend, soon.

You rightly point out that the Book of Abraham was not presented by JSJr as scripture during his lifetime. Only years after his death did the Brigham Young faction of Mormonism, albeit the largest, adopt the Book of Abraham as scripture.

JSJr did present the Book of Abraham in ways that Paul O. has pointed out in this thread. Whatever its genesis, all the evidence is that JSJr believed that it was his good, divine fortune for the papyri to be delivered to him. That he was making an actual linguistic translation of ancient Egyptian characters into English text corresponding with the meaning of those Egyptian characters. And that the Egyptian characters on the papyri linguistically translated into English text we know to be the Book of Abraham.

The facsimile explanations seem to be where a revelation, text-dictation catalyst explanation rather than a linguistic one encounter class 5 rapids. Even with the phonetic explanation for the KEP.

I agree with you that JSJr had the Book of Abraham for the most part already outlined in his head before Chandler ever arrived in Kirtland with the mummies, the hypocephalus, and papyri. The Book of Abraham has concepts that JSJr wanted to infuse into the theology of the Mormon movement. The good fortune of Chandler and his mummies might actually have been viewed by JSJr as some sign of providence guiding him. It provided him a prop for introducing these new ideas to the members.

That the work on the 'translation' stalled from early 1836 and did not resume for more than a handful of years is a fact of importance to my take on the Book of Abraham. If JSJr actually thought god brought this story, Abraham's story, to JSJr to restore, why was this not his highest ecclesiastical priority? When I consider this hiatus and what it meant for the low priority of the Book of Abraham, and the fact that during his life, JSJr did not shepherd this text to being accepted as Mormon scripture, I do not think that JSJr regarded the Book of Abraham nearly as importantly as 'scripture', as it only came to be years later during the Brigham Young era.


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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:51 pm 
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Nightlion wrote:
Not easy to ignore when you pile up four ignore lines on my thread, Paul. None of the text for the Book of Abraham came from any of the facsimiles. I think it most probable that Joseph was playing fast and loose on them. With no revelation to guide him he was letting his imagination go wild. I think that he actually thought he was reading them however.

I can sympathize with him on this. When Mark Hoffmann's forgery of the Anthon Transcript came out I studied that sucker for over six months certain that it deciphered to the Title Page of the Book of Mormon. Just taking the glyphs in the columns and leaving out everything in the boxes and circle I was able to render a precise rationale that in fact perfectly fit my thesis. Having done this with great excitement I was taken to render an original translation of what WAS in the boxes and in the circled groupings. And I did so. I was rather please with myself and expected to go on the lecture tour of Church Seminaries and Institutes teaching the awestruck how to read Reformed Egyptian.

Long story short, my lack of charisma detained me from getting renown before the bombs began to explode and that Anthon Transcript was rendered moot. Although I am still fond of my deciphering of the Title Page consistent with characters older than Hoffmann's forgery, without the few glyphs Mark obviously "made up" to kick it off, as I now suspect he had the exact same idea for a deciphering and planted the groupings intentionally to lead to that, something my novice approached at first failed to detect, so without it my attempt to translate the other glyphs is extremely suspect. I can't even remember where I put that work. Lucky for me my good name and reputation without charisma held me back lest I become a buffoon and a laughing stalk, before my time. :rolleyes: Something about arrested infantile emotional development, that weighs a body down like an anchor despite impressive intellectual advances. It makes you a man child where infantile emotionalism mars your visage telegraphing to everyone something is wrong with this picture. I now call it Fussy Baby Syndrome. What an amazing weakness. But I glory in my Jesus who may still one day turn this into a great strength.

You're a prime example of how one deals with cognitive dissonance. What you fail to acknowledge in your trip through wonderland, is that Joseph Smith was not receiving revelation from God, but rather making it all up on the fly. While you concoct theories based on "no revelation to guide him he was letting his imagination go wild" you then come across as if you're making sense. Joseph Smith was a charlatan who made everything up... at what point do you acknowledge this is even a possibility?

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:02 pm 
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Themis wrote:
You are still ignoring the other things you were asked to back up. That;'s usual for you. Now Newtonian physics still works just as well as they always have. Certainly it could never explain everything and other theories were needed.
Yeah, it works great for GPS. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:05 pm 
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Tobin wrote:
Themis wrote:
You are still ignoring the other things you were asked to back up. That;'s usual for you. Now Newtonian physics still works just as well as they always have. Certainly it could never explain everything and other theories were needed.
Yeah, it works great for GPS. :lol:


Your other statement is still wrong, and I never said anything about GPS. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:10 pm 
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Themis wrote:
Your other statement is still wrong, and I never said anything about GPS.
Nothing wrong with my statement. Try using Newtonian Physics with GPS and it won't work. Because it is too primitive and incorrect!!! And I'll say it again - there is only something wrong with your mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:14 pm 
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Tobin wrote:
Themis wrote:
Your other statement is still wrong, and I never said anything about GPS.
Nothing wrong with my statement. Try using Newtonian Physics with GPS and it won't work. Because it is too primitive and incorrect!!! And I'll say it again - there is only something wrong with your mind.


Quote:
The fact is, Newton's theories were primitive and incorrect as demonstrated by Einstein.


This is the statement that is incorrect, but I see you have lost now that you are attacking the person. You are still avoiding the Book of Abraham problems brought up, but we all understand why. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:24 pm 
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Themis wrote:
...
Believe what you want Themis - you usually do. When you want to check back into reality, you have my number.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:32 pm 
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Tobin wrote:
Themis wrote:
...
Believe what you want Themis - you usually do. When you want to check back into reality, you have my number.


I see you still cannot provide how I am wrong, but it is a side issue. Lets get back on topic and maybe you could try dealing with the Book of Abraham, but I won't hold my breath.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:33 am 
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Tobin wrote:
There is little doubt when you think about it that in 1000 years, the scientific theories of today will be considered primitive and almost completely incorrect.

This is the advantage of getting information from God. God can show us things as they really exist and give us ideas that will withstand the test of time. That is why it is superior knowledge.



Chap wrote:
I don't claim your prophetic powers.

But when real historians of science look back on the past, in, say, the physics of moving bodies, I think you will find that they don't see ideas that seem to them 'primitive and almost completely incorrect' a few hundred years back. Since modern science got started, there have been good examples of how a later theory can include earlier views as a special case. Newton's 17th century view of the way bodies move under the action of forces is what you get as a good approximation if you apply Einstein's 20th century relativity to bodies that are not too large, and are not moving too fast relative to one another. People like Hawking in the 21st century are not looking to junk Einstein, but seek to find what a universe has to be like for Einstein's physics to apply, and not another kind of physics. Maxwell's electromagnetic equations don't get junked when quantum theory turns up - we look for a clever way to see both Maxwell's equations and quantized phenomena as parts of a much more complex pattern.



Tobin wrote:
The fact is, Newton's theories were primitive and incorrect as demonstrated by Einstein. And undoubtedly in time, we'll discover the same is true of Einstein's work as well.


Chap wrote:
Nobody using physics professionally would ever describe Newton's laws as 'primitive and incorrect'. Newton's laws apply with very high precision to almost all the calculations one needs to do in relation to sending a space-probe into lunar orbit, for example. All physics and engineering students still spend many hours of study mastering them, for very good reasons.

Relativistic effects are very hard to find at the scale of the everyday world. Even in the case of the motion of the planets, the results of relativity show up only subtly. About the most obvious is the fact that Newton's methods give a result for the rate of precession of the perihelion of Mercury that differs from observation by about 40 out of about 570 seconds of arc per century (that makes about 0.00003 of a complete revolution - not a lot).

But from the way you write I suspect that kind of thing is not to your taste.



Tobin wrote:
Chap, when I read this I just stopped reading your comments. My only response is laughter. I guess you have never used a GPS nor do you have any clue about how it works. Please read up on it someday and maybe then you won't make absurd statements like the one above.

PS GPS is a very common technology. Just a FYI.


The point that Tobin and I are arguing about in the exchange above, as I understand it, is whether scientific knowledge is worthwhile, despite the fact that science can be said to operate by ‘trial and error’ and is subject to revision - unlike knowledge of the kind he claims to be able to obtain by the process he calls ‘asking God’ - which, it appears, does not yield answers to the questions science attempts to answer in any case. This exchange was provoked by my stated preference to the kind of knowledge in a recent Stephen Hawking paper to the kind of knowledge contained in the text of the Book of Abraham - hence the relevance to this thread.

In support of the his dismissal of scientific knowledge, Tobin tries to represent scientific change as a process of discovery that what was previously thought to be known was later discovered to be completely wrong. Hence his abusive characterization of Newton’s views of motion as ‘primitive and incorrect as demonstrated by Einstein’. But as I pointed out, within the domain to which Newton’s laws apply, it is quite difficult to show relativistic effects in relation to moving objects at a scale ranging from human scale to the scale of the solar system, and I quoted the example of the precession of the perihelion of Mercury - 40 out of about 570 seconds of arc per century.

Now Tobin produces GPS as an example of an extremely obvious relativistic effect in everyday life. Does he know, I wonder, that his example makes my point about the small size of relativistic effects? The relativistic effect on the rate of an atomic clock in a GPS satellite caused by the combined effects of high relative speed and a weaker gravitational field is very small - about 38 millionths of a second out of a day of 86,400 seconds. This only shows up because, unlike the case of Mercury, GPS systems accumulate the error in time and transform it into positional error. Typically this is said to result in a positional error or about 10km/ day - this on the surface of a planet whose circumference is about 40,000 km, a discrepancy of 0.025%. We can detect this particular relativistic effect because of a combination of our own very small scale relative to the planet, and an extremely sophisticated science-based technology that can put atomic clocks into precisely positioned orbit. Typically relativistic effects require high levels of technical sophistication to detect, and do not show up at all without it. If the circumstances are not very special indeed, Newton’s laws are excellent ways of predicting the behaviour of bodies ranging from bullets to planets.

But if Tobin wants to shout ‘you are primitive and incorrect’ at Newton, and ‘you will one day be shown to be primitive and incorrect’ at Einstein, he has his First Amendment rights to protect him. Real physicists will just smile warily, nod reasssuringly, and get back to their labs. It would be rude to shout anything of the kind at Tobin, so I won’t.

But turning back to the Book of Abraham: yup, 'primitive and incorrect' will do very nicely. Thanks for the phrase, Tobin.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:54 am 
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Chap wrote:
...In support of the his dismissal of scientific knowledge, Tobin tries to represent scientific change as a process of discovery that what was previously thought to be known was later discovered to be completely wrong....
Tobin wrote:
I wouldn't dismiss science Nightlion. As long as they demonstrate or discover something that is true (or partially true), I'm perfectly willing to embrace it....
Here is how I started off this discussion. Now note the underlined part from Chap's tirade. That is all that needs to be said about Chap and his representations.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:41 am 
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Tobin wrote:
Chap wrote:
...In support of the his dismissal of scientific knowledge, Tobin tries to represent scientific change as a process of discovery that what was previously thought to be known was later discovered to be completely wrong....
Tobin wrote:
I wouldn't dismiss science Nightlion. As long as they demonstrate or discover something that is true (or partially true), I'm perfectly willing to embrace it....
Here is how I started off this discussion. Now note the underlined part from Chap's tirade. That is all that needs to be said about Chap and his representations.


I am happy to withdraw the word 'dismissal'. Tobin's problem is indeed more subtle than that he wants to deny all value to scientific knowledge. But it is still a major problem.

Tobin's statement in full was:

Quote:
I wouldn't dismiss science Nightlion. As long as they demonstrate or discover something that is true (or partially true), I'm perfectly willing to embrace it. However, the problem with science is it is a trial-and-error discipline. You start with a belief (a hypothesis) and conduct trials (experiments) to determine if the facts fit the hypothesis - if it does, then it becomes a "theory" (though other discplines would differ somewhat in the definition). However, there are severe limitations to this approach. It takes a long time usually. And many things are simply beyond our abilities to ascertain. For example. if we want to know what life is like on another planet - we simply have no way to investigate that at the present time. The other problems with this approach is the visible knowledge bubble. What we "know" now is most likely incorrect or basically the tip of the iceberg of what may actually be occuring or may have occurred. There is little doubt when you think about it that in 1000 years, the scientific theories of today will be considered primitive and almost completely incorrect.

This is the advantage of getting information from God. God can show us things as they really exist and give us ideas that will withstand the test of time. That is why it is superior knowledge.


The problem here is that in his eagerness to claim that 'getting information from God' is 'superior knowledge', Tobin has to caricature the way scientific change has worked since the beginning of the scientific revolution (a disputed term, but let's use it provisionally) around the time of Galileo and Newton. Contrary to Tobin's view, significant parts of science, particularly physics, have reached a stage where they are essentially cumulative - new knowledge enables us to see the way we thought before as a special case, applicable under limited circumstances and under restricted conditions. That is very nicely illustrated, as I have argued above, by the relations between Newtonian dynamics and relativistic dynamics.

The work of Hawking and his colleagues seems to be taking us to a position where our own universe, with the laws of physics that appear to apply here, is just one possible state of many other possible states it could have gone to after the Big Bang. Unlike Tobin, I don't claim to be able to predict what physicists a millennium hence will think of Newton, Einstein and Hawking. But the record so far since Galileo and Newton does not suggest they will think that the theories of any of those thinkers were simple mistakes - instead one would expect them to see a much bigger picture, of which those theories are particular limiting cases. Whatever happens, the fact remains that the way science has worked over the last few centuries has opened up much deeper explanatory powers to humanity in relation to the physical world than we could ever have dreamed of before.

And all this does matter, contrary to Tobin's claim, to the 'common man'. Without it, no GPS (Tobin's killer app, it seems), no NMR body scans, no antibiotics, smallpox still a scourge of humanity and so on. To repeat a previous example: no deity ever bothered to inform his or her followers that they should boil water before drinking - something that would have eliminated much suffering and death. Yahweh didn't bother: he thought it more important to stop people cooking meat in milk. The LDS deity didn't bother: he was more concerned with caffeine. Science did bother. If I was a betting man, I'd bet that the discovery that it is wise to kill microbes in water before you drink it is very unlikely ever to be shown to "primitive and almost completely incorrect". It's about as unlikely as finding out that the moon is not made of rock, or that human beings really have three legs.

Either way, I find writings like Hawking's paper immensely more profound and interesting than Smith's pseudo-archaic mystical fictions. But Tobin is entitled to his own tastes in such matters.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:11 am 
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Chap wrote:

But turning back to the Book of Abraham: yup, 'primitive and incorrect' will do very nicely. Thanks for the phrase, Tobin.


I think you have said that the Book of Abraham is also incomplete. Incorrect? And what is shabby about the discovery of the Proto-existence, the place of the organization of intelligence before the foundation of the earth. This was before spirit children were born. It is the first step out of the Light of Truth to where those appointed to independent existence abide. Correcting the misunderstanding that Satan was a born as a spirit son of Heavenly Father and setting the record straight that Jesus is NOT his brother.

What man of science has discovered an completely new existence of all things? Choke on that Darwin. Math, who needs it? That;s what computers are for. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:41 am 
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Nightlion wrote:
Chap wrote:

But turning back to the Book of Abraham: yup, 'primitive and incorrect' will do very nicely. Thanks for the phrase, Tobin.


I think you have said that the Book of Abraham is also incomplete. Incorrect?


No, I think we have pretty well everything that Joseph Smith wrote.

Nightlion wrote:
And what is shabby about the discovery of the Proto-existence, the place of the organization of intelligence before the foundation of the earth. This was before spirit children were born. It is the first step out of the Light of Truth to where those appointed to independent existence abide. Correcting the misunderstanding that Satan was a born as a spirit son of Heavenly Father and setting the record straight that Jesus is NOT his brother.


Nighlion, you are going to have to deal with the fact that you can't take it as an obvious given in discussions on this board that we all agree that the Book of Abraham is an ancient record of revelation from a deity. Many of us, me included, have remained unpersuaded that the Book of Abraham is anything but a 19th-century fake, and not a very interesting one at that.

Nightlion wrote:
What man of science has discovered an completely new existence of all things? Choke on that Darwin. Math, who needs it? That;s what computers are for. :lol:


Understanding the value of science is a bit like Moroni's promise about the Book of Mormon, Nightlion (well, only a bit...). In the same way that you have to read the Book of Mormon before you seek a testimony of its truth (or just plain decide whether it makes any sense), you have to study science before you are entitled to any opinion on its value.

And you really won't be able to go far without some math. If there is a deity who made this universe, he made it so that math is an essential tool for understanding how he made it work. Why would you have a problem with that? Especially since he seems to have created human beings with brains that can do math really well, if only they make the effort and find a good teacher.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:53 am 
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Nightlion wrote:
Without the justification he had hoped for he still went ahead and put out The Book of Abraham with the facsimile blunders.


Joseph Smith justified himself in everything he did. But that doesn't justify his works or make them true. The text of the Book of Abraham and the Explanations of the Fascsimiles are one in the hand, a single witness to Joseph Smith's pretended abilities to translate Egyptian. That is how he presented his revelation to the world. The text and the Facsimiles are entangled together, you cannot separate them from the mind of Joseph Smith. He never would have allowed that. That's why I say that Joseph Smith would have excommunicated Nightlion for his apostasy and speaking evil of the Lord's revelations which were given to Joseph Smith to publish in Zion as a witness of the revelations, inspiration of the Holy Ghost, authority of the priesthood, and the keys of the First Presidency. But we see Nightlion coming along trying to tear Mormonism apart from inside by attacking the revelations of Joseph Smith that he doesn't like. Nightlion is truly the greater enemy to Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith could have found me much more tolerable because I call him a false prophet and accuse him for making up his translations for his entire work. But Nightlion wants to go in like a surgeon and splice and cut up his works and tell the prophet he needs to get his act together in order to restore Zion and that only some of his revelations of the translations of Abraham are correct. Joseph Smith would have hated Nightlion a lot more than me! Trust me, Nightlion is the greater enemy to Joseph Smith than me. Nightlion would seek to overthrow Joseph Smith and establish his own Zion based on his own polluted mind -- but I'm just laughing at Joseph Smith and telling the world he is a false prophet. So who is more dangerous to Joseph Smith?

So, Nightlion has already excommunicated himself from Joseph Smith and his Zion. Joseph Smith would be more angry with Nightlion than he was over the printing press he burned. How ironic.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:18 am 
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Nightlion wrote:
He never published it as scripture and that is odd. Which oddity gives credence to the notion that there is stuff not up to snuff in the facsimiles.


Golly, Joseph Smith died within just a short while of publishing his Egyptian revelations in the Times & Seasons. His life was cut short. He didn't even get a chance to translate the Book of Joseph as he promised to do and the elders of the church greatly anticipated those translations. Joseph Smith was riding high on his translations but the end was near! He was on the run and eventually killed. He didn't get to add to the word like he wanted to. But you can be sure that he would have canonized his Explanations right along with the story of Abraham -- and he would have canonized his upcoming Book of Joseph too.

Joseph Smith and the elders were very proud of the Explanations of the Facsimiles. Statements made by the leading brethren and others over the publication of the Facsimiles lend them to be on par with any revelation Joseph Smith ever gave. Infact, in some cases it tends to make them out as being grand revelations on a higher level -- celestial in content -- mysteries of Godliness that exceeds his usual revelations found in the D&C. Yes, the saints were mighty proud of the Explanations of the Facsimiles. All of the saints rejoiced at the publication and Joseph Smith was very happy in testifying to the world that he was translating Egyptian records that bore witness of the greatness of Jehovah and his dealings with his chosen people.

Nightlion is just an apostate that really doesn't understand the Book of Abraham saga too well. He has thrown out the wild theory that Joseph Smith was restoring Adamic language and somehow confused that with Egyptian. But we know from the writings of Joseph Smith and his companions that this simply is not the case. It's just a baseless excuse that Nightlion is trying to create. Joseph Smith would have tossed Nightlion out of the kingdom with the other apostates who sought to subdue him.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:43 am 
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Nightlion wrote:
I predict Joseph comes off triumphant when we get all the blocks included in the puzzle.


The puzzle has already been solved. Joseph Smith is a proven liar. But we see how apologists who base their testimonies of ZION over logic and reason will do anything or hope for anything in order to somehow vindicate the impossible. You are living in a dream, Nightlion.

Here are some statements made by an expert LDS apologist who wrote a book about this very subject and knew damn well that things didn't add up. But the testimony of the restored gospel is a brainwasher, nonetheless.

----------------------------------------------------------
Saga of the Book of Abraham; Jay M. Todd, 1969

"The issue is a confusing one at present." P. 253

"These are major questions. Perhaps their answers will not be known until that great day when all things are truly known." P. 289

"In time perhaps we shall know. But this much we do know — we do not know the answer now." P.290

"Perhaps this view is correct. Perhaps it is not. Only time will tell." P.314

"One wonders, therefore, if the Prophet did indeed think he knew the identity of one of the mummies he had acquired." P.316

"Obviously, these are questions and relationships that are beyond solution at the present time." P. 317

"So much for what is public information of the 'Valuable Discovery.' Again, its ultimate meaning and value are not known." P. 318

"Once more, only time will tell." P. 319

"Only time will reveal the soundness of its conclusions." P. 380

------------------------------------------------------
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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:03 am 
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Nightlion wrote:
Joseph said that he desired the learning of heaven alone. Me too.


And it appears that Joseph Smith's heaven was giving him bad information on the fantastic identities of the mummies in which he purchased. My goodness, the saints were making all kinds of wild claims about who the mummies were and Joseph Smith was caught up right in the thick of it. All this while producing his Book of Abraham tale.

The inspiration of the Holy Ghost given to Joseph Smith regarding the mummies was bogus. So also is the Book of Abraham and ALL of his Explanations!

So, Nightlion. What do your prophetic powers have to say about the identity of the mummies? Do you agree with Joseph Smith? Or, are you yet again found fighting against him trying to overthrow his Zion as the apostate you are?

See:

http://web.archive.org/web/20071026135000/http://www.myegyptology.net/file/id603.htm

Paul O

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:14 am 
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Which is easier to believe? :smile:

The Book of Abraham or Manuscript No. 6, signed by Joseph Smith Jr. and the translations he made from copied funerary Egyptian literature? Are they not two peas in a pod?


Katumin, Princess, daughter of On-i-tos Pharaoh- King

of Egypt, who began to reign in the year of the

World 2962

Katumin was born in the 30th year of the reign of her

father, and died when she was 28 years old, which was

the year 3020.


Nightlion, is the above translation which was officially signed by the prophet on the Front Cover of the manuscript, true?

Yes or No? Bow your head and say, "No".

Paul O

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:23 pm 
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Paul has loaded up another pile on my thread. He has no idea what is shared between Joseph Smith and myself. Nobody is talking about the despondency of Joseph that began with the Kirtland apostasy. Zion was rejected and trounced by the early Church. The Protestant ethic of American and even the English converts holds the virtue of Zion in contempt.

Seek the interest of your neighbor before you own best interest??????????????????????

The Gentile Mormons never subjected their heart to Christ that he might give them a new heart that owns the Love of God which is perfect peace and yes, charity. Seeking the welfare of others ahead of your own. This is the culture of Heaven. This is where the kingdom of God is and everything more of less comes of evil.

April 10, 1842 (DHC 4:588)
Joseph the Seer arose in the power of God; reproved and rebuked wickedness before the people, in the name of the Lord god. he wished to say a few words to suit the condition of the general mass, and then said: I shall speak with authority of the Priesthood in the name of the Lord God, which shall prove a savor of life unto life, or of death unto death. Notwithstanding this congregation profess to be Saints yet I stand in the midst of all [kinds of] characters and classes of men. If you wish to go where God is, you must be like God, or possess the principles which god possesses, for if we are not drawing towards God n principle, we are going from Him and drawing towards the devil. Yes, I am standing n the midst of all kinds of people.


Sounds all of Nightlion to me. And he later said....."The Church must be cleansed..."

The very same day that The Times and Seasons published the Book of Abraham Joseph was reported to have said this: ....he did not know that he should have many opportunities of teaching them, as they were going to be left to themselves; they would not long have him to instruct them; that the church would not have his instructions long, and the world would not be troubled with him a great while, .......for according to his prayers, God had appointed him elsewhere. April 28, 1842 (DHC 4:602-607)

Tell me that he was all keen about The Book of Abraham and not woefully foreboding it.
Sounds like he was fully aware what was coming and why..........because the Saints were not saints and the gospel was being trampled upon and Zion was not possible among these people.

Again, nobody is looking at the fact that the usage of Adamic words preceded the Egyptian papyrus by at least a couple of years. Was Joseph setting up the Church for a great sieve and test down the road when their iniquities were ripe?

Heber C. Kimball's famous conference prophecy is quoted here:

For I say unto you there is a test, a Test, a TEST coming."

This Church has before it many close places through which it will have to pass before the work of God is crowned with glory.

The difficulties will be of such a character that the man or woman who does not possess a personal knowledge or witness will fall. If you have not got this testimony, you mist live right and call upon the Lord, and cease not until you obtain it.

Remember these sayings: The time will come when no man or woman will be able to endure on borrowed light. Each will have to be guided by the light within themselves. If you do not have the knowledge that Jesus is the Christ, how can you stand?"


That sounds all the world like Nightlion too.

Paul, you could not get between me and Joseph Smith with a corn dodger for a wedge and a pumpkin for a beatle.

I will have everyone look at the broader picture and consider more than they yet have about The Book of Abraham.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:56 pm 
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thews wrote:
You're a prime example of how one deals with cognitive dissonance. What you fail to acknowledge in your trip through wonderland, is that Joseph Smith was not receiving revelation from God, but rather making it all up on the fly. While you concoct theories based on "no revelation to guide him he was letting his imagination go wild" you then come across as if you're making sense. Joseph Smith was a charlatan who made everything up... at what point do you acknowledge this is even a possibility?


At absolutely no point at all shall I imagine Joseph Smith made everything up. There is a secret thread that passes through all scripture. It is the truth of God, meaning what God wants people to get while they live and can only get from him. This is the true gospel.

Just explain how it was that Joseph Smith got this exactly right such that even today's Mormons are clueless as are all Gentiles, because saying it and repeating it is no getting it at all. Joseph Smith did and preached it his entire career. And as I just pointed out; the early saints were not getting it.

Thews, you do not even know what the gospel is, or why God wants us to get it exactly right. The McGospel salvation flippers want you to pay to play and that's the gospel. The LDS want you to pay for what they tell is just a little bit more than the gospel. Neither are and each are as cluess as was everyone living at the time of Joseph Smith when he did get it right and brought forth abundant scriptures that all spoke of it precisely right.

It comes off to me as really dumb to keep saying Joseph Smith made everything up. Sounds more like an agenda than anything about truth.

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