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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:02 pm 
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Nightlion wrote:
Joseph Smith was NOT attempting to read Egyptian. Yeah he may have said he was working on the translation of the Egyptian. But that is a misnomer. He was not interested in deciphering anything on the papyrus. He was translating in a different way.


Parley P. Pratt (Millennial Star July 1842)

"The mummies, together with the record, have been exhibited, generally, through the States, previous to their falling into our hands. Mr. Chandler was, of course, anxious to find some one who could interpret or translate this valuable relic of antiquity, and, we believe, on one occasion, met with an individual who was enabled to decipher a small portion, or, at least, to give an opinion of what he supposed its meaning to be. He every where heard mention of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, but so generally associated with something slanderous, that could scarcely think seriously of applying to him. But at length, however, he called upon Mr. Smith, to enquire if he had a power by which he could translate the ancient Egyptian. Mr. Smith replied that he had, when Mr. Chandler presented the fragment which had been partially interpreted. Mr. Smith retired into his translating room and presently returned with a written translation in English, of the fragment, confirming the supposed meaning ascribed to it by the gentleman to whom it had been previously presented."

Nightlion wrote:
Joseph Smith was NOT attempting to read Egyptian. Yeah he may have said he was working on the translation of the Egyptian. But that is a misnomer. He was not interested in deciphering anything on the papyrus. He was translating in a different way.


Joseph Smith’s Journal Entries

1. July "with W.W. Phelps and Oliver Cowdery as scribes, I commenced the translation of some of the characters or hieroglyphs"

2. October 7 "this afternoon recommenced translating the ancient records"

3. November 19 "I returned home and spent the day in translating the Egyptian records"

4. November 26 "at home we spent the day in transcribing Egyptian characters from the papyrus"

Nightlion wrote:
Joseph Smith was NOT attempting to read Egyptian. Yeah he may have said he was working on the translation of the Egyptian. But that is a misnomer. He was not interested in deciphering anything on the papyrus. He was translating in a different way.


Joseph Smith July 1835 HC:235, 236

"Soon after this, some of the saints in Kirtland purchased the mummies and papyrus, a description of which will appear hereafter, and with W.W. Phelps and Oliver Cowdery as scribes, I commenced the translation of some of the characters or hieroglyphics, and much to my joy found that one of the rolls contained the writing of Abraham, another the writing of Joseph of Egypt, etc., -- a more full account of which will appear in its place, as I proceed to examine or unfold them. Truly we can say, the Lord is beginning to reveal the abundance of peace and truth."

Nightlion wrote:
Joseph Smith was NOT attempting to read Egyptian. Yeah he may have said he was working on the translation of the Egyptian. But that is a misnomer. He was not interested in deciphering anything on the papyrus. He was translating in a different way.


MESSENGER AND ADVOCATE December 1835 Oliver Cowdery p.236

"I might continue my communication to a great length upon the different figures and characters represented upon the two rolls, but I have no doubt my subject has already become sufficiently prolix for your patience: I will therefore soon cease for the present.-When the translation of these valuable documents will be completed, I am unable to say; neither can I give you a probable idea how large volumes they will make; but judging from their size, and the comprehensiveness of the language . . . ."

Nightlion wrote:
Joseph Smith was NOT attempting to read Egyptian. Yeah he may have said he was working on the translation of the Egyptian. But that is a misnomer. He was not interested in deciphering anything on the papyrus. He was translating in a different way.


Quincy Whig, Vol. 3, p. 1, October 1840

"He (Joseph Smith) then walked to a secretary, on the opposite side of the room, and drew out several frames, covered with glass, under which were numerous fragments of Egyptian papyrus, on which, as usual, a great variety of hieroglyphical characters had been imprinted.

'These ancient records,' said he, throw great light on the subject of Christianity. They have been unrolled and preserved with great labor and care. My time has been hitherto too much taken up to translate the whole of them, but I will show you how I interpret certain parts. There,' said he, pointing to a particular character, 'that is the signature of the patriarch Abraham.''It is indeed a most interesting autograph,' I replied, 'and doubtless the only one extant. What an ornament it would be to have these ancient manuscripts handsomely set, in appropriate frames, and hung up around the walls of the temple which you are about to erect at this place.'

'Yes', replied the Prophet, 'and the translation hung up with them'."

The Saga of the Book of Abraham; Jay M. Todd, p. 211
The Story of the Pearl of Great Price; James R. Clark, p. 112


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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:19 pm 
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Umm, how about:

"When Joseph Smith produced the Book of Abraham he thought he was doing a translation. But God was just dicking about with him, like deities do. He just put stuff through Joseph's head. He didn't care if it made his chosen prophet look a fool when Egyptologists got to look at the papyrus and the facsimiles. Deities get to do what they like, and prophets are expendable."

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:07 pm 
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Here are two texts. Would I prefer to meet the author of the first text, or the second?

Quote:
Accelerated Expansion from Negative Λ
James B. Hartle, S. W. Hawking, Thomas Hertog
(Submitted on 16 May 2012 (v1), last revised 30 May 2012 (this version, v2))

Wave functions specifying a quantum state of the universe must satisfy the constraints of general relativity, in particular the Wheeler-DeWitt equation (WDWE). We show for a wide class of models with non-zero cosmological constant that solutions of the WDWE exhibit a universal semiclassical asymptotic structure for large spatial volumes. A consequence of this asymptotic structure is that a wave function in a gravitational theory with a negative cosmological constant can predict an ensemble of asymptotically classical histories which expand with a positive effective cosmological constant. This raises the possibility that even fundamental theories with a negative cosmological constant can be consistent with our low-energy observations of a classical, accelerating universe. We illustrate this general framework with the specific example of the no-boundary wave function in its holographic form. The implications of these results for model building in string cosmology are discussed.


Read it at http://arxiv.org/abs/1205.3807

Or the author of this:

Quote:
16 If two things exist, and there be one above the other, there shall be greater things above them; therefore Kolob is the greatest of all the Kokaubeam that thou hast seen, because it is nearest unto me.

17 Now, if there be two things, one above the other, and the moon be above the earth, then it may be that a planet or a star may exist above it; and there is nothing that the Lord thy God shall take in his heart to do but what he will do it.

18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.


Read it at http://www.LDS.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/3?lang=eng

What does the first text tell us? Basically this, it seems: quantum objects (like an electron) can be described by a wave function that tells us the probability of all possible states of the object. Hawking and colleagues have managed to write a wave function for the universe - something they have been trying to do for a very long time - and have finally found a version that seems to work well, and makes a lot of bits of physics fit together that did not do so before. The wave function generates the probability of all the possible universes that could have arisen from the big bang, including ones like the universe we observe. In some of them our solar system could not have formed, or life might have turned out quite differently.

What does the second text tell us? The Lord only knows.

What would the authors of the first text say if someone said he could see something wrong in what they had written? "Thanks, that's really interesting. We'll think again."

What would the author of the second text say if someone said he could see something wrong in what they had written? "Silence, spawn of Satan!"

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:32 pm 
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Joseph Smith got the Adamic from an adjunct revelation of the Book of Abraham while translating the Bible. Before the scrolls introduction he demonstrated familiarity with the Adamic which the Book of Abraham tells us about, saying, that Abraham owned a copy of the Book of Remembrance written in the language of Adam. This is the source of Joseph's familiarity with Adamic words and phrases. Years before the scrolls.

What to do with his extra scripture of Abraham wholly original from anything that does exist in the Bible? He was already pushing the envelope by expanding Biblical texts like the Book of Moses.

Along comes Michael Chandler and his mummies and papyrus. Joseph decides to translate the papyrus and produce his already extant Book of Abraham. Feeling guilty perhaps over the imposition he strives to justify it attempting to reduce Egyptian into the Adamic language.The Lord was not for it and it did not work and so he abandoned the project.

Without the justification he had hoped for he still went ahead and put out The Book of Abraham with the facsimile blunders. He never published it as scripture and that is odd. Which oddity gives credence to the notion that there is stuff not up to snuff in the facsimiles. As I mention above he may have genuinely thought his best effort was credible as nothing forbid him doing so.

This appeared to solve his problem of demonstrating an ability to translate the Egyptian. The Lord had no interest in it being translated so Joseph was stuck. Joseph could not translate without the gift and power of God. Probably not as great a test for Joseph as having to introduce polygamy yet Joseph's apparent overall despondency in 1842 of letting go ushered in the end of his days.

Why not just cop a plea? He must not have known that the Lord was not interested in a funerary scroll before he had already stepped into the pitch and swung away. What comes of it all is that the Lord gets his test for the later-latter-days when the Gentiles have sinned against the gospel completely. A test that would serve as an additional witness against their hypocrisy, as a craven leadership turns their backs on the tragedy of unwinding faith of the best and brightest among them, proving the Gentiles a fallen people before the Lord.

All of what Joseph said was Egyptian was stylized the same as what he called Adamic. This is the best evidence for my thesis. Egyptian on the scrolls could not have been Adamic even if the oldest Egyptian actually might have been pure Adamic or at least similar. The confusion of languages would have greatly altered the Egyptian language to whatever they reinvented for the characters after Babel.

The fact that two of Joseph's closest friends knew that a test would come to sift the saints tells us he may have realized what was set in motion by publishing the facsimiles. Not polygamy nor the priesthood ban have tested the core faith of the people more than The Book of Abraham.

My explanation will not restore people's faith in the LDS Church, heaven forbid. It might help them realize Zion is still out there to be realized and done right. From Kirtland on Joseph knew well that there was no Zion in the hearts of the people and being a prophet must have realized Zion was far off.The world knew of the wonders that were coming and the Gentiles simply did not have it within them to resist. No Zion back then and no Zion yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:40 pm 
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Chap wrote:
Here are two texts. Would I prefer to meet the author of the first text, or the second?

Quote:
Accelerated Expansion from Negative Λ
James B. Hartle, S. W. Hawking, Thomas Hertog
(Submitted on 16 May 2012 (v1), last revised 30 May 2012 (this version, v2))

Wave functions specifying a quantum state of the universe must satisfy the constraints of general relativity, in particular the Wheeler-DeWitt equation (WDWE). We show for a wide class of models with non-zero cosmological constant that solutions of the WDWE exhibit a universal semiclassical asymptotic structure for large spatial volumes. A consequence of this asymptotic structure is that a wave function in a gravitational theory with a negative cosmological constant can predict an ensemble of asymptotically classical histories which expand with a positive effective cosmological constant. This raises the possibility that even fundamental theories with a negative cosmological constant can be consistent with our low-energy observations of a classical, accelerating universe. We illustrate this general framework with the specific example of the no-boundary wave function in its holographic form. The implications of these results for model building in string cosmology are discussed.


Read it at http://arxiv.org/abs/1205.3807

Or the author of this:

Quote:
16 If two things exist, and there be one above the other, there shall be greater things above them; therefore Kolob is the greatest of all the Kokaubeam that thou hast seen, because it is nearest unto me.

17 Now, if there be two things, one above the other, and the moon be above the earth, then it may be that a planet or a star may exist above it; and there is nothing that the Lord thy God shall take in his heart to do but what he will do it.

18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.


Read it at http://www.LDS.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/3?lang=eng

What does the first text tell us? Basically this, it seems: quantum objects (like an electron) can be described by a wave function that tells us the probability of all possible states of the object. Hawking and colleagues have managed to write a wave function for the universe - something they have been trying to do for a very long time - and have finally found a version that seems to work well, and makes a lot of bits of physics fit together that did not do so before. The wave function generates the probability of all the possible universes that could have arisen from the big bang, including ones like the universe we observe. In some of them our solar system could not have formed, or life might have turned out quite differently.

What does the second text tell us? The Lord only knows.

What would the authors of the first text say if someone said he could see something wrong in what they had written? "Thanks, that's really interesting. We'll think again."

What would the author of the second text say if someone said he could see something wrong in what they had written? "Silence, spawn of Satan!"


I do not see you comparing like things here. Those science guys have not produced a single thing from all their big bang notions. God, has produced a life filled universe in multiple dimensions already.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:43 pm 
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Chap wrote:
Umm, how about:

"When Joseph Smith produced the Book of Abraham he thought he was doing a translation. But God was just dicking about with him, like deities do. He just put stuff through Joseph's head. He didn't care if it made his chosen prophet look a fool when Egyptologists got to look at the papyrus and the facsimiles. Deities get to do what they like, and prophets are expendable."


Nothing dicking about the Book of Abraham. It rivals the best of all scripture. The facsimiles...ehh. I say Joseph stepped in it there and left it on his shoe. A test tit for no Zion tat.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:45 pm 
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The critics like to have it both ways - first, Joseph Smith is attempting to work out what the Egyptian hieroglphic characters meant - yet, at the very same time, he produced an incomplete translation (the BofA) miraculously without even having worked out what the characters were?!? It's almost laughable the mental gymnastics you have to go through to even comprehend the critic's position, because Joseph Smith had to work out what the hierglyphics meant to have supposedly produced the BofA (if that was what the papyri contained) in any traditional understanding of translation. Instead what we find is Joseph Smith does the translation first and was still trying to work out what the hieroglyphics were up until his death.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:48 pm 
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Tobin wrote:
The critics like to have it both ways - first, Joseph Smith is attempting to work out what the Egyptian hieroglphic characters meant - yet, at the very same time, he produced an incomplete translation (the BofA) miraculously without even having worked out what the characters were?!? It's almost laughable the mental gymnastics you have to go through to even comprehend the critic's position, because Joseph Smith had to work out what the hierglyphics meant to have supposedly produced the BofA (if that was what the papyri contained) in any traditional understanding of translation. Instead what we find is Joseph Smith does the translation first and was still trying to work out what the hieroglyphics were up until his death.


I predict Joseph comes off triumphant when we get all the blocks included in the puzzle.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:50 pm 
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Chap wrote:
Here are two texts. Would I prefer to meet the author of the first text, or the second?

Quote:
Accelerated Expansion from Negative Λ
James B. Hartle, S. W. Hawking, Thomas Hertog
(Submitted on 16 May 2012 (v1), last revised 30 May 2012 (this version, v2))

Wave functions specifying a quantum state of the universe must satisfy the constraints of general relativity, in particular the Wheeler-DeWitt equation (WDWE). We show for a wide class of models with non-zero cosmological constant that solutions of the WDWE exhibit a universal semiclassical asymptotic structure for large spatial volumes. A consequence of this asymptotic structure is that a wave function in a gravitational theory with a negative cosmological constant can predict an ensemble of asymptotically classical histories which expand with a positive effective cosmological constant. This raises the possibility that even fundamental theories with a negative cosmological constant can be consistent with our low-energy observations of a classical, accelerating universe. We illustrate this general framework with the specific example of the no-boundary wave function in its holographic form. The implications of these results for model building in string cosmology are discussed.


Read it at http://arxiv.org/abs/1205.3807

Or the author of this:

Quote:
16 If two things exist, and there be one above the other, there shall be greater things above them; therefore Kolob is the greatest of all the Kokaubeam that thou hast seen, because it is nearest unto me.

17 Now, if there be two things, one above the other, and the moon be above the earth, then it may be that a planet or a star may exist above it; and there is nothing that the Lord thy God shall take in his heart to do but what he will do it.

18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.


Read it at http://www.LDS.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/3?lang=eng

What does the first text tell us? Basically this, it seems: quantum objects (like an electron) can be described by a wave function that tells us the probability of all possible states of the object. Hawking and colleagues have managed to write a wave function for the universe - something they have been trying to do for a very long time - and have finally found a version that seems to work well, and makes a lot of bits of physics fit together that did not do so before. The wave function generates the probability of all the possible universes that could have arisen from the big bang, including ones like the universe we observe. In some of them our solar system could not have formed, or life might have turned out quite differently.

What does the second text tell us? The Lord only knows.

What would the authors of the first text say if someone said he could see something wrong in what they had written? "Thanks, that's really interesting. We'll think again."

What would the author of the second text say if someone said he could see something wrong in what they had written? "Silence, spawn of Satan!"



Nightlion wrote:

I do not see you comparing like things here. Those science guys have not produced a single thing from all their big bang notions. God, has produced a life filled universe in multiple dimensions already.


Nightlion, I don't think you are in a position to judge the work of 'those science guys', since (so far as I can tell) your acquaintance with science is minimal. In any case, I am not comparing Stephen Hawking and his colleagues to your deity, but to the (in my view) 19th century human author of the Book of Abraham. If the Book of Abraham is a genuine divine revelation, I would, of course, defer to your prophetic expertise.

Could we at least agree that if the Book of Abraham is not of divine origin, then its author (who would then be Joseph Smith) did not accomplish anything very difficult? He simply made up some names, dressed up some Bible texts in new guise, and wrote a bunch of rather pretentious mystical stuff on that basis. He couldn't even translate Egyptian, something which (see Shulem's post above) he repeatedly represented himself as doing.

Hawking on the other hand has used a deep mastery of the results of many very difficult and subtle scientific experiments, combined with mind-bendingly hard math, to solve puzzles that he and others have struggled with for decades. As a result he is now able to show how some math that never quite seemed to work right before can in fact predict how we could start from a Big Bang, and end up with a universe like the one we can see around us. It is amazing to me that a bunch of ape relations like ourselves can use the brains we evolved to survive on the African savannah to handle such challenges. If I believed in a deity (which I don't) this would for me be one of the surest proofs that we are made in his image.

But so far as I can see, it is probably the other way round.

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That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:43 pm 
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Chap wrote:
As a result he is now able to show how some math that never quite seemed to work right before can in fact predict how we could start from a Big Bang, and end up with a universe like the one we can see around us. It is amazing to me that a bunch of ape relations like ourselves can use the brains we evolved to survive on the African savannah to handle such challenges. If I believed in a deity (which I don't) this would for me be one of the surest proofs that we are made in his image.

But so far as I can see, it is probably the other way round.


Three predicters huh? You know that man-made prophets don't make it here.

Joseph said that he desired the learning of heaven alone. Me too.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:54 pm 
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Nightlion wrote:
Chap wrote:
As a result he is now able to show how some math that never quite seemed to work right before can in fact predict how we could start from a Big Bang, and end up with a universe like the one we can see around us. It is amazing to me that a bunch of ape relations like ourselves can use the brains we evolved to survive on the African savannah to handle such challenges. If I believed in a deity (which I don't) this would for me be one of the surest proofs that we are made in his image.

But so far as I can see, it is probably the other way round.


Three predicters huh? You know that man-made prophets don't make it here.

Joseph said that he desired the learning of heaven alone. Me too.

I wouldn't dismiss science Nightlion. As long as they demonstrate or discover something that is true (or partially true), I'm perfectly willing to embrace it. However, the problem with science is it is a trial-and-error discipline. You start with a belief (a hypothesis) and conduct trials (experiments) to determine if the facts fit the hypothesis - if it does, then it becomes a "theory" (though other discplines would differ somewhat in the definition). However, there are severe limitations to this approach. It takes a long time usually. And many things are simply beyond our abilities to ascertain. For example. if we want to know what life is like on another planet - we simply have no way to investigate that at the present time. The other problems with this approach is the visible knowledge bubble. What we "know" now is most likely incorrect or basically the tip of the iceberg of what may actually be occuring or may have occurred. There is little doubt when you think about it that in 1000 years, the scientific theories of today will be considered primitive and almost completely incorrect.

This is the advantage of getting information from God. God can show us things as they really exist and give us ideas that will withstand the test of time. That is why it is superior knowledge.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:35 pm 
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Tobin wrote:
... the problem with science is it is a trial-and-error discipline ...


No, that is precisely what is excellent about it. Because it is built on continual attempts to advance our understanding that keep on going wrong, but eventually we find a way that goes right.

And so here you are, reading these words on a screen a few minutes after I have typed them here in ... well, never mind. And so a lot of other things that I don't surely need to list here, ranging from nuclear weapons to brain scans.

As a method of finding new knowledge, science certainly seems to work pretty well.

Tobin wrote:
There is little doubt when you think about it that in 1000 years, the scientific theories of today will be considered primitive and almost completely incorrect.


I don't claim your prophetic powers.

But when real historians of science look back on the past, in, say, the physics of moving bodies, I think you will find that they don't see ideas that seem to them 'primitive and almost completely incorrect' a few hundred years back. Since modern science got started, there have been good examples of how a later theory can include earlier views as a special case. Newton's 17th century view of the way bodies move under the action of forces is what you get as a good approximation if you apply Einstein's 20th century relativity to bodies that are not too large, and are not moving too fast relative to one another. People like Hawking in the 21st century are not looking to junk Einstein, but seek to find what a universe has to be like for Einstein's physics to apply, and not another kind of physics. Maxwell's electromagnetic equations don't get junked when quantum theory turns up - we look for a clever way to see both Maxwell's equations and quantized phenomena as parts of a much more complex pattern.

Tobin wrote:
This is the advantage of getting information from God. God can show us things as they really exist and give us ideas that will withstand the test of time. That is why it is superior knowledge.


In your view, about what topics does your deity give people superior knowledge?

Is he willing to give a ruling on whether the cosmological constant should be positive or negative? No? So perhaps Hawking and colleagues had better not give up trying to find out.

If not that, then what? Could it be that he is just not part of the same ball game as science? In that case, how can the knowledge he allegedly gives be superior, since it is of a quite different kind? Apples and oranges, you know.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:55 pm 
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Chap wrote:
But when real historians of science look back on the past, in, say, the physics of moving bodies, I think you will find that they don't see ideas that seem to them 'primitive and almost completely incorrect' a few hundred years back. Since modern science got started, there have been good examples of how a later theory can include earlier views as a special case. Newton's 17th century view of the way bodies move under the action of forces is what you get as a good approximation if you apply Einstein's 20th century relativity to bodies that are not too large, and are not moving too fast relative to one another. People like Hawking in the 21st century are not looking to junk Einstein, but seek to find what a universe has to be like for Einstein's physics to apply, and not another kind of physics. Maxwell's electromagnetic equations don't get junked when quantum theory turns up - we look for a clever way to see both Maxwell's equations and quantized phenomena as parts of a much more complex pattern.
Try this thought experiment while you are making your ridiculous statements. Is 3 a good approximation of PI? The fact is, Newton's theories were primitive and incorrect as demonstrated by Einstein. And undoubtedly in time, we'll discover the same is true of Einstein's work as well. And this is only over the course of a few hundred years too, not even a 1000 years as I stated. You have demonstrated exactly what I stated as true with your own examples.

Chap wrote:
In your view, about what topics does your deity give people superior knowledge?
Only on the important matters, how to treat one another, what our true existance and what our nature is, what happens to us after we die and so on. Basically on all the things that really matter to the common man, something science rarely if ever addresses.

Chap wrote:
Is he willing to give a ruling on whether the cosmological constant should be positive or negative? No? So perhaps Hawking and colleagues had better not give up trying to find out.

If not that, then what? Could it be that he is just not part of the same ball game as science? In that case, how can the knowledge he allegedly gives be superior, since it is of a quite different kind? Apples and oranges, you know.
Your question assumes that the inspiration (the origin) of the hypothesis that man has didn't arise from God. That they weren't inspired and enlightened. And I'm sure God would be happy to enlighten people further if they would ask him and do what God asks. The problem is that almost nobody does and so we are often left to our own limited means. I fear when man is left to his own devices like that, the only result is barbarism, destruction, and things like the Dark Ages. Following God isn't a question of merely advancement, but of the survival and success of our species.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:35 pm 
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Tobin wrote:
The critics like to have it both ways - first, Joseph Smith is attempting to work out what the Egyptian hieroglphic characters meant - yet, at the very same time, he produced an incomplete translation (the BofA) miraculously without even having worked out what the characters were?!?


Interesting you don't even know what the critic position is. Let me help you. Joseph made it up. Now we see from the KEP Joseph was attaching paragraphs of texts we see in the Book of Abraham to each hieroglyph which we find on the papyri in order. All of it fits Joseph making it up without any need for mental gymnastics. Now I see you cannot deal with some of your mental gymnastics on the others thread discussing the Book of Abraham.

Quote:
It's almost laughable the mental gymnastics you have to go through to even comprehend the critic's position, because Joseph Smith had to work out what the hierglyphics meant to have supposedly produced the BofA (if that was what the papyri contained) in any traditional understanding of translation. Instead what we find is Joseph Smith does the translation first and was still trying to work out what the hieroglyphics were up until his death.


CFR that Joseph did the translation first. If he did the translation first we should have a complete Book of Abraham not to mention a BoJ. He claimed to do about 10 pages a day with the Book of Mormon. Should have been easy to complete the Book of Abraham and BoJ.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:40 pm 
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Tobin wrote:
Chap wrote:
But when real historians of science look back on the past, in, say, the physics of moving bodies, I think you will find that they don't see ideas that seem to them 'primitive and almost completely incorrect' a few hundred years back. Since modern science got started, there have been good examples of how a later theory can include earlier views as a special case. Newton's 17th century view of the way bodies move under the action of forces is what you get as a good approximation if you apply Einstein's 20th century relativity to bodies that are not too large, and are not moving too fast relative to one another. People like Hawking in the 21st century are not looking to junk Einstein, but seek to find what a universe has to be like for Einstein's physics to apply, and not another kind of physics. Maxwell's electromagnetic equations don't get junked when quantum theory turns up - we look for a clever way to see both Maxwell's equations and quantized phenomena as parts of a much more complex pattern.

Try this thought experiment while you are making your ridiculous statements. Is 3 a good approximation of PI? The fact is, Newton's theories were primitive and incorrect as demonstrated by Einstein. And undoubtedly in time, we'll discover the same is true of Einstein's work as well. And this is only over the course of a few hundred years too, not even a 1000 years as I stated. You have demonstrated exactly what I stated as true with your own examples.


Well, yes, 3 is not a bad approximation to π (the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter), if you think that being within 5% of the correct result is not bad. Of course, whether a number is a good or bad approximation of a given quantity always comes with a qualification like that. If 3 is not good enough, you can have 22/7, which is correct to within 0.05%.

People who have practiced in the physical sciences usually know that kind of thing.

Nobody using physics professionally would ever describe Newton's laws as 'primitive and incorrect'. Newton's laws apply with very high precision to almost all the calculations one needs to do in relation to sending a space-probe into lunar orbit, for example. All physics and engineering students still spend many hours of study mastering them, for very good reasons.

Relativistic effects are very hard to find at the scale of the everyday world. Even in the case of the motion of the planets, the results of relativity show up only subtly. About the most obvious is the fact that Newton's methods give a result for the rate of precession of the perihelion of Mercury that differs from observation by about 40 out of about 570 seconds of arc per century (that makes about 0.00003 of a complete revolution - not a lot).

But from the way you write I suspect that kind of thing is not to your taste.

Tobin wrote:
Chap wrote:
In your view, about what topics does your deity give people superior knowledge?
Only on the important matters, how to treat one another, what our true existance and what our nature is, what happens to us after we die and so on. Basically on all the things that really matter to the common man, something science rarely if ever addresses.


So he doesn't set out to give us dull stuff like antibiotics or NMR scans, or how not to get smallpox? Doesn't the common man rather like having stuff like that? So far as I recall no deity has even bothered to tell his devotees even so much as "boil water before drinking", which would have saved the common man a lot of grief if he had known it. Well, if your deity can't lower himself, science is going to have to keep on the job.

Tobin wrote:
Chap wrote:
Is he willing to give a ruling on whether the cosmological constant should be positive or negative? No? So perhaps Hawking and colleagues had better not give up trying to find out.

If not that, then what? Could it be that he is just not part of the same ball game as science? In that case, how can the knowledge he allegedly gives be superior, since it is of a quite different kind? Apples and oranges, you know.


Your question assumes that the inspiration (the origin) of the hypothesis that man has didn't arise from God. That they weren't inspired and enlightened. And I'm sure God would be happy to enlighten people further if they would ask him and do what God asks. The problem is that almost nobody does and so we are often left to our own limited means.


Well, we'll just have to do our best with what we have. If any important messages come through, be sure to tell the rest of us, OK?

Tobin wrote:
I fear when man is left to his own devices like that, the only result is barbarism, destruction, and things like the Dark Ages. Following God isn't a question of merely advancement, but of the survival and success of our species.


Sorry, what you call the Dark Ages happened because people didn't believe enough in deities? Right!

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Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.


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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:35 pm 
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Chap wrote:
Relativistic effects are very hard to find at the scale of the everyday world. Even in the case of the motion of the planets, the results of relativity show up only subtly. About the most obvious is the fact that Newton's methods give a result for the rate of precession of the perihelion of Mercury that differs from observation by about 40 out of about 570 seconds of arc per century (that makes about 0.00003 of a complete revolution - not a lot).
Chap, when I read this I just stopped reading your comments. My only response is laughter. I guess you have never used a GPS nor do you have any clue about how it works. Please read up on it someday and maybe then you won't make absurd statements like the one above.

PS GPS is a very common technology. Just a FYI.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:08 pm 
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Tobin wrote:
Chap wrote:
Relativistic effects are very hard to find at the scale of the everyday world. Even in the case of the motion of the planets, the results of relativity show up only subtly. About the most obvious is the fact that Newton's methods give a result for the rate of precession of the perihelion of Mercury that differs from observation by about 40 out of about 570 seconds of arc per century (that makes about 0.00003 of a complete revolution - not a lot).
Chap, when I read this I just stopped reading your comments. My only response is laughter. I guess you have never used a GPS nor do you have any clue about how it works. Please read up on it someday and maybe then you won't make absurd statements like the one above.

PS GPS is a very common technology. Just a FYI.


Wait. Didn't you type this

Quote:
The fact is, Newton's theories were primitive and incorrect as demonstrated by Einstein.


Maybe you should get back to us when you have studied a little physics. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:11 pm 
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Themis wrote:
...
Let me know how well Newtonian Physics works with GPS.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:38 pm 
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Tobin wrote:
Themis wrote:
...
Let me know how well Newtonian Physics works with GPS.


That won't change what's your with your statement.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:29 pm 
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Themis wrote:
That won't change what's your with your statement.
As usual, nothing is wrong with my statement - just something is wrong with your mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:44 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
Nightlion wrote:
I believe the Book of Abraham is a genuine revelation.


The revelations are FALSE. They are pure lies made up by a false prophet. Modern Egyptology has proven that Joseph Smith couldn't read Egyptian and that his proposed revelations which he published in the Times & Seasons are bunk.

Figure 2
King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head.
Image


Figure 4
Prince of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, as written above the hand.
Image


Figure 5
Shulem, one of the king's principal waiters, as represented by the characters above his hand
Image


Figure 6
Olimlah, a slave belonging to the prince.
Image

Joseph Smith's revelations are fit for the trash can.

Paul O

This.

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